Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 47 minutes ago, RedLineMike said: id suspect long enough involved at this tech level to be able to form an opinion based on experience of the aformentioned platforms in harsh environments What tech level and what harsh environments? Let’s keep cryptic answers for the cryptic forums. He’s been a very forthcoming contributor to this topic and one of the very few commenting who actually has some level of technical knowledge which I embrace rather than the blah blah which makes up most of the posts. I would prefer if there was a rule where every post had to have a number or fact in it. 38 minutes ago, RedLineMike said: 35/12.50/18 big enough for youhttps://www.tyresdirectuk.co.uk/product/radar-renegade-r7-35-12-5r18/ or even a 37" tyrehttps://www.tyresdirectuk.co.uk/product/discoverer-stt-pro-3713-5r18-124k/ Maybe you misunderstood the point I was making about sidewall depth which is why I said “up to 33” and your referral to large tyres have no relevance to my point. I’ll try to explain my position on the subject for clarity: The ability of a tyre to conform to the contours of an uneven surface is an essential attribute of an off highway tyre. This is more or less completely lost on a 30” tyre with an 18” rim. As the rim size goes up and the overall tyre diameter remains the same at say 30” then progressively less sidewall remains available to allow the tyre conform to contours. A 22” rim with a 30” diameter tyre would be like the worst case scenario but people still do it. A taller rim and lower profile tyre means that when you’re actually using a vehicle in a harsher environment than Chelsea or when you gently bump the kerb dropping the kids off at school then you don’t dent the rim. There’s a lot more to a tyres traction on slippery surfaces than just the tread pattern . Tell me of any off highway motorsports where low profile tyres are the preferred norm? Have you ever personally tried changing a low profile tyre on a rim compared to a standard 85% aspect ratio? Which tyre will remain inflated longer with a small spinifex bush type puncture? Which tyre will absorb potholes and stones or rough surfaces better? which tyre will impart lower forces to the suspension and drivetrain? Remember this is a DEFENDER replacement we’re discussing here, if this were a new discovery I would agree with every point that yourself and Mike and Fridge has raised and there would be no topic but the tyres that we have seen thus far in testing are yet another aspect of this vehicle, like the suspension and drivetrain that does not look as though it has been designed and optimised for arduous off highway utility use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 @discomikey works at Tomcat Motorsports, I believe , and races/prepares/engineers these things. I am certain LR will have yaw/other movement sensors that can sense how well something is gripping. They are(have been?) world leaders in this tech, I would think they could solve the problem which you have thought of by just pondering for a few minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 3 hours ago, discomikey said: but for the extra stability while towing. Nope, sorry you’ve lost me here. Please use only facts and possibly numbers here to explain to me how a low profile tyre with the resultant smaller variation in dynamic contact patch and much higher frequency of response is more stable on 1. A corner with severe corrugations. 2. When it hits a bump in the road it can’t conform over. 3. A typical unmade rough track with stones and potholes Remember this is the defender replacement we’re discussing so there shall be no talk of asphalt or roads!! I’m just not buying into any concept that a low profile tyre is better off road than one with a greater than 75% aspect ratio. Maybe you can prove it with modern magic and show me for the dinosaur I might well be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 There's a lot more asphalt nowadays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Jamie_grieve said: What tech level and what harsh environments? Let’s keep cryptic answers for the cryptic forums. Tell me of any off highway motorsports where low profile tyres are the preferred norm? Have you ever personally tried changing a low profile tyre on a rim compared to a standard 85% aspect ratio? 1 hour ago, Jamie_grieve said: Can't work out what cryptic nonsense your on about now, Definitely prefer a 37/1250/17 over a 37/1250/16 as the sidewall flex / movement is less In regards to changing tyres that aren't 85 profile , Yes, quite easily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: @discomikey works at Tomcat Motorsports, I believe , and races/prepares/engineers these things. I am certain LR will have yaw/other movement sensors that can sense how well something is gripping. They are(have been?) world leaders in this tech, I would think they could solve the problem which you have thought of by just pondering for a few minutes. I’m not sure what this is in response to? best way is to highlight the text you’re referring to then press “quote selection” and it’ll automatically come up in the answer box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 2 hours ago, RedLineMike said: Can't work out what cryptic nonsense your on about now, Your response about discomikey had zero relevance to the question I asked, which was, for how long he had being doing it for. I am very aware of what he does for a living and his signature and our discussions on earlier posts all make it pretty clear. 2 hours ago, RedLineMike said: Definitely prefer a 37/1250/17 over a 37/1250/16 as the sidewall flex / movement is less If sidewall flex is undesirable for your application then why not use a larger rim? Maybe use a 20” rim in that scenario? You’re saying that changing low profile tyres is easier in your experience? OK. Not gonna argue with you on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Perhaps, gentlemen, we can keep the focus of discussion on the positive or negative aspects of the technical nature of the new vehicle - and not our respective career histories. As far as the new Defender goes, if one remembers that they are not building something to do the same as the old one then it looks pretty good. It’s fairly clear that they’re aiming at the high end market and not utility, so a slightly boxier-shaped Disco is not unexpected. After all that’s all the original was - this is the newer version. The target demographic is not people operating in hostile environments after all, it will be designed to work well on road (which is where almost all 4x4s spend the majority of their time anyway) and like the other models in the current range it will be surprisingly good off road thanks to clever electronic systems. And it will no doubt be just as unreliable as the rest of the current range 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 5 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said: Remember this is a DEFENDER replacement we’re discussing here, if this were a new discovery I would agree with every point that yourself and Mike and Fridge has raised and there would be no topic but the tyres that we have seen thus far in testing are yet another aspect of this vehicle, like the suspension and drivetrain that does not look as though it has been designed and optimised for arduous off highway utility use. Therein will lie the nub of your future dissapointment I think - is it likely that LR are going to diverge and start building utility vehicles? Wouldn't make much sense, and they don't need to. Did they make as much money on a utility spec Defender as a fully loaded Disco 4? Nah. Do most new car buyers want small rims and massive profile rubber - nope, and that's what will drive development, demand. Even Range Rovers and Discos started out with proper suspension, 16" steelies and wind up windows but I doubt we'll see that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said: I’m not sure what this is in response to? best way is to highlight the text you’re referring to then press “quote selection” and it’ll automatically come up in the answer box. Jamie, I'm a Web developer by trade, and nearly 20 years in, I reckon I can handle a piece of forum software It was in answer to your slightly snipey-appearing quote of @RedLineMike who was referring to you making assumptions about @discomikey 's knowledge of the platform and its performance, and how long he has been in the industry. Redlinemike then replied 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Wow it's been a long while since we had a bit of rough and tumble on here <rubs hands in anticipation of handbags at dawn> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 So, does the panel think that the new Defender will have soft touch knobs and switches so as not to cause undue roughening of sensitive fingertips? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said: Wow it's been a long while since we had a bit of rough and tumble on here Indeed, though perhaps this is just a bit of smooth and rolling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: who was referring to you making assumptions about @discomikey 's knowledge of the platform and its performance, and how long he has been in the industry. Redlinemike then replied I give up, does anybody here actually read the f#<>!ng posts that people put up? Not even two pages ago we covered this. Then he gave a very good answer. Then we moved on a little bit, there was some cherry picking over some awkward questions now we're here. I asked him how long he had been in the industry so I could use different analogies in our conversations and would pick ones appropriate to his time. Now we're all up to speed (bar those that obviously didn't bother to read the previous posts) can we move on? Edited June 18, 2019 by Jamie_grieve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Indeed, though perhaps this is just a bit of smooth and rolling? Oh what! You mean the dusty alarms in A&M aren't going to burst into life as everyone out here legs it to the middle of the playground shouting Fight! Fight Fight! Boring 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said: So, does the panel think that the new Defender will have soft touch knobs and switches so as not to cause undue roughening of sensitive fingertips? I think that they must have spent the last 5 years of defender replacement doing something, we know now it wasn't suspension, platform or drivetrain development so it could well have been optimising the button textures to look really rough and dangerous but actually make them really nice and velvety to the touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 I read them... Buts let's be honest, there's been a whole load of walls of text which makes it rather difficult to have a 'discussion' when it appears one person is attempting to dominate proceedings. Kind of reminds me of the five minutes I managed to watch of the tory leadership debate this evening, before I switched it off. BTW, it wasn't dealt with two pages ago, your sarcy reply is at the top of this page, right above my post you are taking issue with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: Kind of reminds me of the five minutes I managed to watch of the tory leadership debate this evening, before I switched it off. Three options for amusement tonight: the Tory leaders, the discussion on here, or Love Island 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) On 6/17/2019 at 2:51 PM, FridgeFreezer said: You'll have to point out the bit in the Russian video where a stock 4x4 on road tyres gets further up that hill than the RR because I didn't see anyone make it, including the Ladoga Trophy G-Wagen on knobbly mud tyres? Hardly standard! While I'm being grumpy about people not paying attention and generally being unpopular: The Subaru and land cruiser which both look stock and on road tyres both get up the hill I was referring to. Please see the screenshots and be amazed in wonderment at their achievement The Range Rover fails twice. Maybe it got up when nobody was filming? The point I was trying to make is that there's nothing special about the Range Rover making it any more capable in this scenario. Maybe fording deep water or driving up lots of steps in China would show it in a better light? Maybe you thought I was referring to the really steep slippery hill that nobody was ever driving up but the range rover still managed to leave the front splitter on the ground? Yeah, that was just an embarrassment, but no, not that one. I will be the first to accept that this proves nothing, other than there's very little difference in all of the various independently sprung platforms with their own geometry and handling optimisation and their own versions of traction control. The Range Rover driver at this point maybe wasn't approaching it how you or I might but the point remains the same. I would argue that the g wagon even on road tyres would easily drive up there as its' basic configuration of long travel soft suspension with good essential angles (and differential locks) would allow it to do so. I'm sure a standard defender with open axle diffs would have got up that one too. The land cruiser here does have a solid rear axle too. Still on the topic of that video, I thought that when they were all driving down that hill waving their rear wheels in the air that I would be far more comfortable in a vehicle with live axles which could keep all 4 wheels on the ground. My god, we're having a debate concerning off highway prowess and there's a subaru forester being used as an example!! Maybe there's something wrong with the world? Edited June 18, 2019 by Jamie_grieve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 Well, after all this, I know I still want an F150 and still have no idea how I can realistically buy a Toyota 76 and get it to the UK as cheaply as stated earlier in this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 5 hours ago, reb78 said: Well, after all this, I know I still want an F150 and still have no idea how I can realistically buy a Toyota 76 and get it to the UK as cheaply as stated earlier in this thread. F150 is the mid-life crisis car out here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 6 hours ago, Happyoldgit said: So, does the panel think that the new Defender will have soft touch knobs and switches so as not to cause undue roughening of sensitive fingertips? I wonder if it'll also come with a dash vase like the Beetle, automatic incense infusion to the AC and a whale song channel on the ICE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Snagger said: F150 is the mid-life crisis car out here! Haha. I am probably kind of there, so it would make sense!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said: If sidewall flex is undesirable for your application then why not use a larger rim? Maybe use a 20” rim in that scenario? You’re saying that changing low profile tyres is easier in your experience? OK. Not gonna argue with you on that one. why would i want a 20" rim when a 17" rim does the job, however if you go up in size to say a 44" tyre or bigger, than a 20" rim does have its benefits in a similar fashion, 15 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said: Have you ever personally tried changing a low profile tyre on a rim compared to a standard 85% aspect ratio? i never said changing a low profile tyre was easier, you asked if i had done it so if you could stay consistent that would be grand 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HampshireHog Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I think you younger types will find that there's nothing wrong with a soft knob in an off road vehicle or maybe the home environment as larger harder knobs often lead to unfortunate and unforeseen accidents 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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