Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[reb78]

Disco 2 is not something i would bunch in with the modern lot - if you have looked after the chassis theres no reason it wont still be running. Ours gets the odd patch on the chassis every now and then but is still going well. 

[BogMonster]

2 hours ago, reb78 said:

Disco 2 is not something i would bunch in with the modern lot - if you have looked after the chassis theres no reason it wont still be running. Ours gets the odd patch on the chassis every now and then but is still going well. 

Neither would I  - D2 is the last of the proper models. I wish they still made it. 13 years and no real headaches with mine, only sold it as body corrosion was starting in places that would be difficult to sort and petrol was twice the price of diesel in this country, so the fact that it cost four times as much as a diesel to run was unsustainable.

If the new Defender was a utility body shape built on the D2 chassis and suspension setup with the 3.2L Mitsubishi engine and transmission out of my Shogun, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

[elbekko]

11 hours ago, neil110 said:

Think about it, how many L322 range rovers do you see? Same with Disco 2 and 3, they are becoming decreasingly visible on the road

How many RRCs do you see? Old cars are less common, that has very little to do with how reliable or made to be disposable they are.

[Happyoldgit]

Hardly ever see a Morris 8 or 10/4 these days too.

[neil110]

How long has the L322 been out of production? Just about 7 years and I haven't seen one in months, so the question is, where have they all gone? Similarly the previous model of RR sport has all but disappeared from roads

The point I was trying to make is that the new defender will have a model life of about 3 years before it gets a facelift and 5-6 years before it is replaced by a completely new model. Thus making the preceding model pretty much worthless and hence disposable

Edited June 27, 2019 by neil110

[Eightpot]

If you get into a P38 now, all the hitech wizzy features, like an electric seat or a cd player with big speakers and maybe a heated walnut steering wheel, and a tiny lcd display showing mpg look positively antique. Thus it will be with the new car, feature and fashion led.  Short lifespan thanks to outdated tech, miriad ecu's, servos, actuators, sensors, probably using compact engine and transmission design a la Disco 3,4,5 which makes simple maintenance a major problem (just changed an inlet manifold on a tdv6 - what were they smoking) and quick churn to new models.  In a nutshell, the 'Defender' is finito, same as the Mini, Fiat 500, Beetle, but I don't mind the looks of the new thing, assuming it's the same as the 'spyshot' of the thing they accidentaly left the keys in the ignition of to light the dash up while the driver nipped off for a coffee..  might get one in ten years time when they've ironed all the faults out though 🙂

[neil110]

In 10 years time they will be midway through the lifecycle of the replacement for the model that is about to be released.

As for your exhaust manifold problem, that is one of the benefits of computer aided design. Will this component fit in this space? Yes! In which case that is where it goes (simplified but you get the idea)

It is the lack of replacement electronics which will kill them.  A former colleague had a Jaguar of some description, which had some form of ECU to control the gearbox, this lived inside the gearbox. It died and there wasn't a replacement available, for any price, anywhere on earth. 

[BogMonster]

13 hours ago, Eightpot said:

If you get into a P38 now, all the hitech wizzy features, like an electric seat or a cd player with big speakers and maybe a heated walnut steering wheel, and a tiny lcd display showing mpg look positively antique. Thus it will be with the new car, feature and fashion led.  Short lifespan thanks to outdated tech, miriad ecu's, servos, actuators, sensors, probably using compact engine and transmission design a la Disco 3,4,5 which makes simple maintenance a major problem (just changed an inlet manifold on a tdv6 - what were they smoking) and quick churn to new models.  In a nutshell, the 'Defender' is finito, same as the Mini, Fiat 500, Beetle, but I don't mind the looks of the new thing, assuming it's the same as the 'spyshot' of the thing they accidentaly left the keys in the ignition of to light the dash up while the driver nipped off for a coffee..  might get one in ten years time when they've ironed all the faults out though 🙂

Very true, while if you get into a 1980s 110, it basically just feels like being in a Land Rover.

TDV6 maintenance is one thing I don't miss having to think about. I'm sure the new Def will be the same, take the body off to change the alternator and stuff like that. Designed to be manufactured and not maintained.

[Naks]

finally, possibly something without camo:

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, neil110 said:

It is the lack of replacement electronics which will kill them.  A former colleague had a Jaguar of some description, which had some form of ECU to control the gearbox, this lived inside the gearbox. It died and there wasn't a replacement available, for any price, anywhere on earth. 

More a lack of understanding of electronics - what was made can be re-made, devices like the Raspberry Pi are opening the field up, making a custom PCB is cheaper than ever, the tools are more accessible than they've ever been but it's outside the knowledge of most old-school workshops.

It's like saying "oh you can't get a new cylinder head for that anywhere at any price" - yes you can, someone somewhere will happily whittle one from billet with a CNC machine if you're willing to pay for it, but your local garage will just shrug and say you can't get them and the car is scrap.

[Eightpot]

Imagine classic car shows of the future - blokes stood round a rebuilt ecu with its cover propped up and displays in the main arena of eprom flash upgrades 

Noooooooooooo 😭

[Anderzander]

Lol 😂 

[reb78]

21 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

More a lack of understanding of electronics - what was made can be re-made, devices like the Raspberry Pi are opening the field up, making a custom PCB is cheaper than ever, the tools are more accessible than they've ever been but it's outside the knowledge of most old-school workshops.

I think you are confusing people with your training with people who know the basics. Its hardly in the realms of your home mechanic to say, 'oh, the ECU is knackered, I will just cobble a new one together with a Raspberry PI base'. I wouldn't know where to start - open up an ECU case then I am lost. Look at how long it seems to have taken companies like BBS to unravel bits to include in their diagnostic boxes...

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Naks said:

finally, possibly something without camo:

That looks more like a range rover now!

[tuko]

2 hours ago, Naks said:

finally, possibly something without camo:

When I saw the A pillar and the vented front fender, I immediately thought L322 RR. Strangely they kept away from the clamshell bonnet ?? 

[Cynic-al]

My experience of working with electronic systems on cars is that I'm ok if someone has written a guide that's simple enough for me to understand. If it explains the system of operation then I can usually fault find, I don't understand modern cars well enough to do it without. Unless something is visibly broken I'm a bit stuck. There are a couple of problems with that, firstly no one seems to write good workshop manuals any more that you can balance on the wing and get greasy finger prints all over. It's a case of trawling forums and reading hundreds of wrong answers. Secondly the level of interaction in the systems is becoming so involved I'm not sure my brain could cope anyway. My VW has a fault, VW assist know it's a common fault, VW know it's a common fault, the people who write the software can't (or won't) fix it as it's a generic bit of code by a third party used on loads of different vehicles but it only seems to fault on the model I have. If they can't do it what hope have I got. 

My wifes car died last week, blocked the M1 at rush hour, made it to the traffic news, made 3 people plus herself late for work, the first recovery man claims a a faulty in tank fuel pump (it doesn't have one) the second recovery man claims faulty EGR, the garage where it's currently sat say a hose has burst, it's dropped all its coolant, over heated and caused an additional fault which they can't find until they've fixed the coolant leak. They're trained people with the right tools.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

I think you are confusing people with your training with people who know the basics. Its hardly in the realms of your home mechanic to say, 'oh, the ECU is knackered, I will just cobble a new one together with a Raspberry PI base'. I wouldn't know where to start - open up an ECU case then I am lost. Look at how long it seems to have taken companies like BBS to unravel bits to include in their diagnostic boxes...

No-one was born knowing how an engine works any more than anyone was born being able to program... my point is it's easier than ever to learn.

Also, people are solving problems faster and cheaper than ever - you don't need to invent your own ECU every time any more than you need to reinvent an engine if your dies, open-source projects like Megasquirt or Speeduino pop up when a few people want to solve the same problem. The same is happening for things like shift controllers, the OBD / CANbus is getting more and more attention.

@Cynic-al is right that manufacturers don't always provide much info, often because they don't own the contents of the ECU either (it'll belong to Bosch or Denso etc.) but at the end of the day all the ECU's connect to some physical thing - an actuator, a sensor, etc. - that does a job, and if you know what it's supposed to do you can make it do it.

[Ex Member]

IMO, it is more a problem of when the hardware fails, there will be no cost effective replacements.  That is the way with all modern cars.  When they get to 15 years old, they become much too expensive and sometime impossible to keep running.  These particular vehicles are so very complicated that it just makes it much worse than a typical car.

[reb78]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

No-one was born knowing how an engine works any more than anyone was born being able to program... my point is it's easier than ever to learn.

Also, people are solving problems faster and cheaper than ever - you don't need to invent your own ECU every time any more than you need to reinvent an engine if your dies, open-source projects like Megasquirt or Speeduino pop up when a few people want to solve the same problem. The same is happening for things like shift controllers, the OBD / CANbus is getting more and more attention.

@Cynic-al is right that manufacturers don't always provide much info, often because they don't own the contents of the ECU either (it'll belong to Bosch or Denso etc.) but at the end of the day all the ECU's connect to some physical thing - an actuator, a sensor, etc. - that does a job, and if you know what it's supposed to do you can make it do it.

Its taken me 20 years to get to this point mechanically. I will likely be dead before I have taught myself to program or fix complex ECU issues that are becoming ever more complex. Trying to use R seems like nonsense to me and people say thats easy. Perhaps its just the way my brain works but I doubt I am alone.

Its not increased complexity I am complaining about anyway, its the unnecessary increases in complexity. Hate to bring up the brake switch on the D3 again but its the best example of a stupid design and they are introducing more of them. Without the internet I dont think anyone would easily find that fault!

[GBMUD]

36 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Its taken me 20 years to get to this point mechanically. I will likely be dead before I have taught myself to program or fix complex ECU issues that are becoming ever more complex.

 

Rather than making one yourself, you just go to Britpart when you need a brake calliper, and so you will go to someone with FridgeFreezer's skill-set when you need an ECU and they will hand you a box to plug in.

 

Chris

[Ex Member]

18 minutes ago, GBMUD said:

... and so you will go to someone with FridgeFreezer's skill-set when you need an ECU and they will hand you a box to plug in.

And you will hand them your life savings in return.

[GBMUD]

2 minutes ago, Red90 said:

And you will hand them your life savings in return.

Possibly.  When my computer breaks down PC world supply me a new HDD, graphics card, memory thing for quite cheap - and I fit it myself.  I didn't used to know the first thing about computers but somewhere along the way I have apparently picked up up quite a lot.  PC world do not charge the earth because they have competition.  Demand is inevitably filled by entrepreneurs all of whom want to attract your business with reasonable prices.

Chris

[Mo Murphy]

... but you don't programme the computer, do you Chris ?

[GBMUD]

6 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

... but you don't programme the computer, do you Chris ?

I am a bit rusty, but I did learn programing years ago. 😛  These days I have Jenny for that.    Rudimentally, I do do programing - we all do - or did.  Things like using the [ ] commands on older versions of the forum to make text appear in italics or bold.

The point is that the hardware should be easy enough to obtain, and actually, learning to program is not that difficult - look at some of the people running, or even selling, Megasquirt!  I assume that software for any given application would ship with the hardware.

Chris

[Ex Member]

The computer analogy is not relevant.   Computers are standardized and everyone makes the parts to the same specs.  Cars are not.  Everything is custom and proprietary.  In fact, many are moving to encrypted code and communications to prevent people changing things.