Question for Racers

[jules]

Looking at fitting D2 Axles to the tomcat while it is at the chassie stage of work.

Are D2 axles stronger (bending wise) than RRC axles(I have heard of poeple bending them alot but not first hand) I put this down to poor shock setup but it could be down to a weeker casing???.

either I fit D2 axles and arms etc or I fit RRC axles with D2 radius arms and Watts linkage fixed to them any thoughts please

I know the internals are stronger (apart from the CV's which I have early 110 front axle so its stronger than the D2 CV's)(according to Maxidrive anyway)

Are D2 diffs 4pin.

At this stage I am not intersted in going for Ashcroft parts so please don't harp on about how God like they are as I want to use as many factory parts as posible.

[BogMonster]

Diffs in a D2 are 2 pin same as you'd get in a 90, don't know about the rest sorry!

[Jon White]

Jules,

Mate of mine has disco 2 axles fitted to his racer - wishes he never bothered!

He's bent both axle cases, and has recently aquired replacements to beef up to try and prevent this. His is most definately not poor shock setup they just seem to be weak.

The shafts are very strong, but I dont know about the diffs. I know the diffs are slightly different and that its possible to convert to using standard rover type diffs, but that its a PITA to do. He approached Quaiffe about making some uprated shafts for them, and was told not to bother as they couldnt improve on landrovers shafts! He's never broken a shaft to my knowledge. However he does break diffs (including a quaiffe one recently).

The bushes on the D2 arms also seem to be a weak point. My mate finds that he struggles to get a set to last a single meeting! He only fits genuine - they just dont last. He never had this problem before when running standard rangie stuff.

Finally rangie axles are easy to come by - D2 ones arent - they were only made for a couple of years, and by comparison are expensive.

Jon

[jules]

Jules,

Mate of mine has disco 2 axles fitted to his racer - wishes he never bothered!

He's bent both axle cases, and has recently aquired replacements to beef up to try and prevent this. His is most definately not poor shock setup they just seem to be weak.

The shafts are very strong, but I dont know about the diffs. I know the diffs are slightly different and that its possible to convert to using standard rover type diffs, but that its a PITA to do. He approached Quaiffe about making some uprated shafts for them, and was told not to bother as they couldnt improve on landrovers shafts! He's never broken a shaft to my knowledge. However he does break diffs (including a quaiffe one recently).

The bushes on the D2 arms also seem to be a weak point. My mate finds that he struggles to get a set to last a single meeting! He only fits genuine - they just dont last. He never had this problem before when running standard rangie stuff.

Finally rangie axles are easy to come by - D2 ones arent - they were only made for a couple of years, and by comparison are expensive.

Jon

John

This has confirmed what I was told yesterday

I may just go for the watts on the back axle with the front RRC radius arms on the original back axle as all the RRC parts are in plentiful supply when you bend or brack one.

All I need is two 4pins to replace the twin ARB's that are currently fitted to the axles which means they can go in the RRC LSE (new off road toy) and some 4.1 R&P as the 4.7 are needed for the racer's gearing

Thanks

[Astro_Al]

Jules- I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but could you not just truss the housing to stop it bending?

Al.

[jules]

Jules- I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but could you not just truss the housing to stop it bending?

Al.

Yes they can be reinforced but is it worth the work the rear D2 axle is much lighter than a RRC but once you have braced it up it has removed it reason for fitting.

catch 22

the speed for repair I have just been told is the best thing as they can be stripped in about 15 mins which is imposible to strip a RRC one in that time.

the CV's don't tend to go its mainly the short shaft in the front that goes the D2 2 pin is much stronger than the RRC but still not as good as a 4pin.

My mate just phoned and did say that there is a advantage with the D2 but its not huge and there are enough things I can do which will make the RRC axles just as good for handling which was my whole aim but the only thing I can't do anything about is the speed of repairability...which on some hill rallies can make or brake.

(I use the RRC as the old style defender,Disco and Range Rover Classic Axles)

[Mark90]

Paul Round was doing some very bling uprated shafts for DII axles. Looked like they had been re-profiled in some areas (particularly around the spines) to eliminate/reduce stress points present in the standard items.

[Jon White]

Jules,

Having helped my mate strip a spare front axle the other day i can say there is most definately not a weight saving! It took two of us to move the front axle and to me it didnt seem any lighter - it may be, but not by very much!

The front is alot quicker to strip as there are no swivels, so making diffs and or halfshafts easier to change. However parts are fearsomely expensive, and the seals in the ends of the front axle tube are very easy to damage.

The spare tubes my mate has aquired with the intention of welding some additional webs onto the outside to stiffen up the casing.

By far the biggest problem he has had though are the bush problems I've already mentioned.

Jon

[ashtrans]

Looking at fitting D2 Axles to the tomcat while it is at the chassie stage of work.

Are D2 axles stronger (bending wise) than RRC axles(I have heard of poeple bending them alot but not first hand) I put this down to poor shock setup but it could be down to a weeker casing???.

sorry, don't know,

I know the internals are stronger (apart from the CV's which I have early 110 front axle so its stronger than the D2 CV's)(according to Maxidrive anyway)

FYI CV strength, from our test rig :

Genuine 2522 4154 ft/lb

Genuine 300/TD5 32 spline 3447 ft/lb

Genuine Disco II CV 3580 ft/lb

note the DII also uses the small 32 spline where the halfshaft enters the CV,

Are D2 diffs 4pin.

No,

At this stage I am not intersted in going for Ashcroft parts so please don't harp on about how God like they are as I want to use as many factory parts as posible.

nice to know you hold me in such high regard !

we currently are not able to supply DII shafts and CV's but we are working on a design that should be so strong that I think we will be seeing more DII axles in challenge motors not just for this reason but also due to the suspension geometry being better (in this I am no expert).

PS I think you will find there are plenty available and quite cheap to, the last one I bought was a good take off complete with good diff, calipers Etc and paid £ 200,

[Kev Baldwin]

FWIW: Bowler uses treated/hardened shafts in the Wildcat. Diff centers are always ARB. Not aware he does anything to the axle casings, however, I've never asked so who knows...

[Daan]

Apart from the diff pan, bowlers are using standard axle cases as far as I am aware. Do you know were they bend? If they bend around the diff area, the stronger diff pan could help you. I would have thought if they last a dakar, they will do most things you can think of. But no experience first hand. I think the main reason to go for it is that they are wider and the kingpin is much further in the wheel. This will reduce kick back in your steeringwheel.

Daan

[jules]

FYI CV strength, from our test rig :

Genuine 2522 4154 ft/lb

Genuine 300/TD5 32 spline 3447 ft/lb

Genuine Disco II CV 3580 ft/lb

nice to know you hold me in such high regard !

PS I think you will find there are plenty available and quite cheap to, the last one I bought was a good take off complete with good diff, calipers Etc and paid £ 200,

Thanks for the info I have a 85 110 axle in the front.

nice to know you hold me in such high regard !

I don't want to buy parts I don't need before I have even raced it.

my sponsors told me that there becoming much more reasonable money.

Huw Haynes has only bent two on his Bowler in five years.

I'm not keen on running a locker as I am more used to a rear LSD when racing.

[V8CAMEL]

if you run d2 on the rear and RRC on the front the track width will be different.

Also if running d2 check the vehicle fits on the trailer (mine didn't so i had to replace the trailer)

Paul

[jules]

if you run d2 on the rear and RRC on the front the track width will be different.

Also if running d2 check the vehicle fits on the trailer (mine didn't so i had to replace the trailer)

Paul

the way it looks I will be running RRC front and rear

[Jon White]

Dont forget also that D2 is a different stud pattern, so your existing rims wont fit!

Jon

[Steve Hiatt]

As has been mentioned the main reason for going to D11 is the improved steering geometry but if you keeping a 110 front then there would seem to be no overall benefit, especially if you need to carry two spares on Hill rallies.

I would be concerned if Hugh has bent two as his racer is reputed to be one of the lightest Wildcats and he he doesn't do that many races, albeit the ones he does are long. He is also an exceptionally smooth driver from what I have seen and apprears much kinder on his car than most others.

In my opinion they are also not strong enough internally although Milners are about to release uprated shafts.

Tim Dilworth would almost certainly have had 3rd overall at Des Cimes last year if he hadn't run out of spare shafts.

[Astro_Al]

I've seen 'improve steering geometry' several times in this thread. Can anyone explain what exactly is 'improved' about it, technically? (Just for my curiosity...)

Al

[FridgeFreezer]

I've seen 'improve steering geometry' several times in this thread. Can anyone explain what exactly is 'improved' about it, technically? (Just for my curiosity...)

Preferably with a complicated formula

[SOA 93]

Regardind D2 axles you could call Neil at Rakeway, Making the D2 shafts for the Drew Bowler was how the company got off the ground.

Lighter and better geometry, meaning better camber and scrub radius, apparently

Rear wheel bearings arer problematic and expensive.

As already mentioned CV's are the small 32 spline variety.

Rakeway keep in stock uprated (300M I think) shafts for front and rear.

Even their front shafts have problems due to the 32 spline restrictions.

Several of their customers run these axles, However Neil does not like them.

Andy

[Steve Hiatt]

Preferably with a complicated formula

Scrub radius is reduced

formula : Kingpin x2 /wheel offset - pivot angle + too fast into a slippy corner = you might get round.

Stop me if I'm getting too technical

[nicksmelly]

I've got Disco 2 radius arms on early axles... does that mean I get the benefit of cheaper diffs, stronger cv's and strengthened shafts for the early axle and... er... hmmm.... longer radius arms?

I'll get me coat.

[reads90]

Dont forget also that D2 is a different stud pattern, so your existing rims wont fit!

Jon

yeah i mention this to jules and pointed out that he will no longer be able to pick up cheap alloys or cheap steels when he bends or breaks them.

Jules , as for shafts. Maxi Drive set for a D2 are only $1318 (front and rear) That makes it about 550 pounds a set. When you come out in August you could pick up a set and take them back with you. After all you don't think we are not going to go and have a look at them while your here anyway, Do you

[v84x4]

tomcat use a 90 front axle and no 4 pin dif they say it is the only way to go

[jules]

tomcat use a 90 front axle and no 4 pin dif they say it is the only way to go

My Tomcat is using all the parts from my old 90 that did the end over last year.

1985 front Axle with the GKN hubs

300tdi rear disc axle

the two lockers are coming out to go in another toy but will be looking for a LSD & a 4pin for it.

I have a old classic that I use for walking the two dogs. The Difrance between the steering on that and my D2 is very very noticeable which is why I fitted the D2 steering box to the Tomcat last weekend. It didn't occur to me that the axle also made that much diffrance,, Dime Bar

The Tomcat will have oldy RRC axles with radius arms front and rear and minimal axle re-enforcemant to keep weight down.

Thanks guy's for the technical imput it saves me doing work for the sake of it.

[Mark90]

yeah i mention this to jules and pointed out that he will no longer be able to pick up cheap alloys or cheap steels when he bends or breaks them.

Not that it matters if Jules is sticking with his RRC axles but you can pick up 16" P38 alloys cheap as chips, although the steels are a bit pricey due to rareity.