Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Happyoldgit]

On 12/17/2022 at 9:28 PM, deep said:

That makes very little sense.  They are not competing vehicles.  If you want a pickup truck, you buy a pick up truck.  If you want a van body or station wagon, that's what you buy.  If what is behind the seat doesn't matter, you're not really buying a purpose built vehicle and won't be looking at the likes of a Grenadier, Defender or G Wagen (but you might and probably should consider a Suzuki Jimny).  Plus the Grenadier is nowhere near as complicated as the Defender...

Edit - Have you actually looked at a Japanese pick up truck lately?  They are every bit as complicated (electronically speaking) as the Grenadier.  Mechanically, many still use cart horse suspension and, last time I looked, rear brakes from the 1960s but, otherwise, they bristle with all the doodads the modern buyer thinks he/she wants, with a considerably lesser off-road, utility focus.  They are four-wheel drive cars with a built-in trailer, that's all.

Yep, coincidentally enough I have actually looked under a Japanese pickup lately, in fact as late as this morning as I was trying to get one of our cats out from under the 2021 Isuzu D-Max V Cross [Auto] that I bought new last year. This truck replaced the 3.2 Ford Ranger Auto I bought new in 2016 that in turn replaced the Defender 110 XS USW that I bought new in 2014 ...and got shot of two years later due to persistent faults and petty and incompetent dealers. Just like the Ranger it replaced the Isuzu has had a lockable canopy on the buck and has proved to be a  good, comfortable, reliable and practical truck which does everything that is expected of it, including tow 3.5 ton, without fuss. Unfortunately the same could not be said of the last Defenders I bought new which all had to go back and forth to various dealerships for both major and minor warranty fixes. Pooh pooh pickups as much as you like but they do the job, in comfort, for a reasonable outlay. Picking up on old school 'cart horse' leaf springs and drum brakes but moaning about all their 'modern doodads' - hmmm.  

If I again have the need for vehicles that outwardly appear as stuff did 50 years ago that include mechanical switching and controls and thus, in theory at least, able to conquer far off and remote places, or do the George & Joy Adamson thing with the lions, while being fixable with a stone axe and hammer again at some point in the future I may well look at what's on the market but I doubt I will find much without buying into past models that have potentially been through the mill in the hands of multiple owners.

I had banked on buying a Grenadier after the concept was announced early on. But not now, not after the interminable marketing faff and considering the various things that have already been discussed in this lengthy thread. 60k+ for something that has ended up looking remarkably akin to a Santana lovechild - hmmm. I expect to be able to have a test drive, and actually drive the thing, without travelling miles to some laid on event to look at and try a preproduction, repeatedly and teasingly almost, almost, but not quite finished product. I'm too old, too cynical, and after the cancer scare too aware of my own mortality, to put my money into something that has been a lesson in marketing tease-ology which in itself is something guaranteed to brass me off.

If I want to feel a basic go anywhere basic mechanical vehicle with 0 'doodads' I'll fire up my '43 Jeep [that just cost x thousand for a transmission rebuild] and do the biz in that. I will certainly relish the basic simplicity and direct control that reminds me so much of the Series Land Rovers I owned, fettled and drove daily, until my old bones, sore backside and the need to let my innards settle into their usual place after being tossed around by 80+ year old technology tell me it's time to stop 😉

...and breathe. I had a carp weekend, can you tell?😁 

[Bowie69]

Well, I enjoyed that, HOG.

 

 

[deep]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

The second sentence goes a long way to justifying the statement that the Jimmy is not the new Defender!  In fairness to most aspects of the Jimmy, other than size, I agree that it is more in keeping with the Defender than either the Pretender or the Grenadier.  It’s more like a modern Series I.  I rather like them - there are quite a few around here.  It’s a pity they didn’t comply well enough with emissions rules to have had more success in Europe.

If your flavour of Defender was the very common five door station wagon, the Grenadier is exactly the modern version of a traditional Defender - separate chassis, solid axles, boxy  body designed for practicality above looks etc..  If your flavour was a short wheelbase, from a Series One to a 90, the Jimny is a great replacement for the former but maybe a tad small to replace the latter.  You do see zillions of those Jimnies here and I'd expect the Grenadier to do well too.  I predict a LOT of second hand new Defenders appearing on the market over the next year...

[L19MUD]

28 minutes ago, deep said:

 I predict a LOT of second hand new Defenders appearing on the market over the next year...

I hope so as I would quite like one and that may bring the cost down! Had a good look at the Grenadier in the flesh and the New Defender this year pretty much side by side. The Grenadier is awful looking inside and out in my opinion, the Defender a class above it.

[Snagger]

9 hours ago, L19MUD said:

I hope so as I would quite like one and that may bring the cost down! Had a good look at the Grenadier in the flesh and the New Defender this year pretty much side by side. The Grenadier is awful looking inside and out in my opinion, the Defender a class above it.

I suspect that more than a few of those being sold will be because they are waiting for replacement electronic parts with a huge backlog.  All manufacturers are still having enormous trouble with that, and even though China is finally starting to be a little more realistic about covid, it’ll be a long, long time before they catch up with outstanding orders.

[rusty_wingnut]

On 3/2/2022 at 2:14 PM, jeremy996 said:

An article in the business section of Autocar and on the website, https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-dealership%2C-sales-and-marketing/why-van-versions-ineos-grenadier-help-co2-rules

Why van versions of the Ineos Grenadier help with CO2 rules

By offering a commercial variant from the off, Ineos has boxed clever with EU and UK emissions regs

Launching a car company without an electric vehicle these days is nigh on impossible, given the tight rules surrounding average CO2 emissions in the UK and European Union, but that’s exactly what Ineos Automotive hopes to do when it begins deliveries of the Grenadier off-roader in July/August. But how?

The answer: study the rules extremely carefully and exploit the grey area between cars and commercial vehicles.

The Grenadier had a controversial birth when Ineos CEO Sir Jim Ratcliffe tried to buy the original Land Rover Defender tooling to allow him to carry on building a model that Land Rover dropped in 2016.
When Land Rover rebuffed him, the Grenadier was born as a sort of tribute act to replicate the Defender’s rugged simplicity but with the flaws ironed out. Land Rover argued the design breached its copyright, but Ineos prevailed.

Ineos has yet to reveal the exact CO2 figures for the Grenadier, but with power coming from a BMW straight-six engine, either petrol or diesel, the number is going to be high, especially given the car’s blocky shape.

Both the EU and the UK, which carried over EU rules, require an average CO2 figure of 95g/km of all cars sold, with a few grams leeway given to brands with heavier vehicles.

Mainstream car makers bring that average down by selling electric cars or plug-in hybrids, or pooling with those makers that do, but Ineos has said a proposed hydrogen fuel cell car won’t be launched until 2027 at the earliest.

There are, however, special dispensations offered to low-volume manufacturers and even more if those manufacturers are making vans. This is where Ineos boxed clever.

The Grenadier is initially available as a five-seat car, but also as two commercial variants: one a two-seater, the other a five-seater.

A longer double-cab pick-up is also on the way next year (with a wheelbase length of 127in, close to the 130in that gave the old Defender 130 double-cab pick-up its name).

The EU says low-volume manufacturers can sell up to 10,000 cars in a given year, as well as 22,000 vans.

The company still has to keep targets to reduce CO2 levels over a period of time, but those are bespoke and agreed with the EU. (Ineos hasn’t revealed what its targets are.)

Meanwhile, the UK has similar rules to reduce numbers, and Ineos is allowed to sell 6000 vehicles, of which 1700 can be cars and 4300 ‘N1’ classification commercials.

These aren’t big numbers but they're big enough for Ineos, whose factory in Hambach, north-east France (bought from Daimler) has a capacity of 33,000 annually, rising to 50,000 building around the clock on three shifts.

The van classification works to the advantage of both Ineos and customers, many of whom will be self-employed business people looking for a vehicle to span the twin ‘tool and toy’ functions. “It fulfils both ends of that spectrum,” Donna Falconer, head of product at Ineos Automotive, said.

Currently, the double-cab pick-up captures a lot of that market and is tax efficient for the self-employed, who can reclaim the VAT. The loophole in the UK means the country is now by far the largest market for pick-ups in Europe, led by the Ford Ranger.

Ineos has gone one step further and offered a vehicle that keeps its N1 classification, has five seats and keeps the rear windows, meaning it outwardly looks like the car. (You can delete the rearmost side windows for security.)

This won’t be the first vehicle to do that. Suzuki recently stopped selling its Jimny off-roader and replaced it with a two-seat van version to have less impact on its CO2 figures.

Van versions of cars are prevalent on the Continent as car makers look to exploit loopholes in specific markets. But this is possibly the first car that has been designed specifically with the van rules in mind.

I did wonder about this with regard to the Defender and the Grenadier, I don't believe as yet you can order a "commercial" 110 Defender? 

[landroversforever]

3 minutes ago, rusty_wingnut said:

I did wonder about this with regard to the Defender and the Grenadier, I don't believe as yet you can order a "commercial" 110 Defender? 

I don't fully understand what Grenadier are doing with it, but yes - the current defender is available as an N1 commercial in the form of the 'Hard top' model. 

[rusty_wingnut]

I should clarify - I need 5 seats 

[Mo Murphy]

The Grenadier and the Pretender are nice new cars, nothing more. Soulless creations.

They certainly are not nor will they ever be utility vehicles out of the Land Rover utility mould.

It's unfair to expect them to be.

They are what they are, lifestyle vehicles for people with no lifestyle.

Mo

 

[landroversforever]

4 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

The Grenadier and the Pretender are nice new cars, nothing more. Soulless creations.

They certainly are not nor will they ever be utility vehicles out of the Land Rover utility mould.

It's unfair to expect them to be.

They are what they are, lifestyle vehicles for people with no lifestyle.

Mo

 

It's the grenadier's barge-like wheelbase that's got your goat isn't it mo  

[Mo Murphy]

No goat to to be got Ross 😁 they're just not what I am looking for.

I'd take a barge over a Grenadier or Pretender any day. 

Mo

[deep]

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

The Grenadier and the Pretender are nice new cars, nothing more. Soulless creations.

They certainly are not nor will they ever be utility vehicles out of the Land Rover utility mould.

It's unfair to expect them to be.

They are what they are, lifestyle vehicles for people with no lifestyle.

Mo

 

I do sympathise with your point of view but don't really agree with it.  Land Rover may have embraced the hype and gadgetry that typifies the modern market but the Grenadier is pretty much as close as you can get to the old mould - with just a tiny bit more fluff to justify a price that couldn't possibly be very low.

[Mo Murphy]

7 minutes ago, deep said:

I do sympathise with your point of view but don't really agree with it.  Land Rover may have embraced the hype and gadgetry that typifies the modern market but the Grenadier is pretty much as close as you can get to the old mould - with just a tiny bit more fluff to justify a price that couldn't possibly be very low.

I see, the Grenadier is reassuringly expensive. 👍

Mo

[jeremy996]

6 hours ago, rusty_wingnut said:

I did wonder about this with regard to the Defender and the Grenadier, I don't believe as yet you can order a "commercial" 110 Defender? 

The commercial Defender 110 has been listed for a long time, one of our L&R4x4 Response volunteers has one and he is very pleased with it. It is sold as a van and had no rear seats. (Our volunteer has some "temporary seats" fitted in his).

That said, trying to buy one is difficult; JLR quote either a very long wait or refuse to take an order, as they are concentrating on the more commercially rewarding blingy ones.

The Grenadier can be had as a 2 seat van or a 5 seat N1 commercial.

All full sized 4x4s are damned expensive; our local Suzuki dealer has a (rare), new Jimny Commercial for sale at £21k in metallic silver with delivery miles only. That is about £4k more than the old saloon version from 2 years ago. Thankfully for my conscience, not only is the Suzuki too small for what I need to carry and tow, but I physically do not fit in it for more than 30 minutes, you cannot move the seat back far enough, as the goods divider steals too much room.

[jeremy996]

New YouTube from the USA, drive impressions from Overland Portal. There is an accompanying article on the Internet at  https://expeditionportal.com/ineos-grenadier-exclusive-first-overland-test-prototype/

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by jeremy996
Adding the article URL for completeness

[deep]

The written review in that link is concise and encouraging.  Nice to see someone enthusiastic about what the machine actually is, rather than bleating about what it isn't!

[forkrentfitter]

On 12/19/2022 at 3:25 PM, Happyoldgit said:

Yep, coincidentally enough I have actually looked under a Japanese pickup lately, in fact as late as this morning as I was trying to get one of our cats out from under the 2021 Isuzu D-Max V Cross [Auto] that I bought new last year. This truck replaced the 3.2 Ford Ranger Auto I bought new in 2016 that in turn replaced the Defender 110 XS USW that I bought new in 2014 ...and got shot of two years later due to persistent faults and petty and incompetent dealers. Just like the Ranger it replaced the Isuzu has had a lockable canopy on the buck and has proved to be a  good, comfortable, reliable and practical truck which does everything that is expected of it, including tow 3.5 ton, without fuss. Unfortunately the same could not be said of the last Defenders I bought new which all had to go back and forth to various dealerships for both major and minor warranty fixes. Pooh pooh pickups as much as you like but they do the job, in comfort, for a reasonable outlay. Picking up on old school 'cart horse' leaf springs and drum brakes but moaning about all their 'modern doodads' - hmmm.  

If I again have the need for vehicles that outwardly appear as stuff did 50 years ago that include mechanical switching and controls and thus, in theory at least, able to conquer far off and remote places, or do the George & Joy Adamson thing with the lions, while being fixable with a stone axe and hammer again at some point in the future I may well look at what's on the market but I doubt I will find much without buying into past models that have potentially been through the mill in the hands of multiple owners.

I had banked on buying a Grenadier after the concept was announced early on. But not now, not after the interminable marketing faff and considering the various things that have already been discussed in this lengthy thread. 60k+ for something that has ended up looking remarkably akin to a Santana lovechild - hmmm. I expect to be able to have a test drive, and actually drive the thing, without travelling miles to some laid on event to look at and try a preproduction, repeatedly and teasingly almost, almost, but not quite finished product. I'm too old, too cynical, and after the cancer scare too aware of my own mortality, to put my money into something that has been a lesson in marketing tease-ology which in itself is something guaranteed to brass me off.

If I want to feel a basic go anywhere basic mechanical vehicle with 0 'doodads' I'll fire up my '43 Jeep [that just cost x thousand for a transmission rebuild] and do the biz in that. I will certainly relish the basic simplicity and direct control that reminds me so much of the Series Land Rovers I owned, fettled and drove daily, until my old bones, sore backside and the need to let my innards settle into their usual place after being tossed around by 80+ year old technology tell me it's time to stop 😉

...and breathe. I had a carp weekend, can you tell?😁 

if you want a giggle go in to busseys in attleborough, incompatence doesn,t come close, they have not bothered keeping me updated, they have a pre production model in the showroom, almost had to fight to even sit in it.

[Happyoldgit]

4 hours ago, forkrentfitter said:

if you want a giggle go in to busseys in attleborough, incompatence doesn,t come close, they have not bothered keeping me updated, they have a pre production model in the showroom, almost had to fight to even sit in it.

I've been past a few times and seen that in there but have not had time to stop yet but will do so as soon as.

[jeremy996]

A bit of press in the muttering rotter glossy magazines, Car December 2022, reminding us that making a new vehicle is not easy, quick or without issues.

[jeremy996]

One of the other forums I frequent had news of a new after-market development for the Grenadier, portals and 37" tyres. 

The development was done by https://lennartz-technik.de, (LeTech), in Germany, usually seen as a high end modifier of Mercedes G-Wagens and the final result will be very spendy.

Edited January 6, 2023 by jeremy996
speeling

[jeremy996]

It makes what was before quite a high vehicle very high -  that is a long way up

The undersides are very tidy; apparently Sir Jim Radcliffe has spent time lying on the floor in Swabia, looking at the portal conversion.

 

[rusty_wingnut]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:57 PM, jeremy996 said:

The commercial Defender 110 has been listed for a long time, one of our L&R4x4 Response volunteers has one and he is very pleased with it. It is sold as a van and had no rear seats. (Our volunteer has some "temporary seats" fitted in his).

That said, trying to buy one is difficult; JLR quote either a very long wait or refuse to take an order, as they are concentrating on the more commercially rewarding blingy ones.

The Grenadier can be had as a 2 seat van or a 5 seat N1 commercial.

All full sized 4x4s are damned expensive; our local Suzuki dealer has a (rare), new Jimny Commercial for sale at £21k in metallic silver with delivery miles only. That is about £4k more than the old saloon version from 2 years ago. Thankfully for my conscience, not only is the Suzuki too small for what I need to carry and tow, but I physically do not fit in it for more than 30 minutes, you cannot move the seat back far enough, as the goods divider steals too much room.

This is a thing for me now, I can take a VAT qualifying commercial through my company, it has to be a 5 seat though.

[deep]

7 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

One of the other forums I frequent had news of a new after-market development for the Grenadier, portals and 37" tyres. 

The development was done by https://lennartz-technik.de, (LeTech), in Germany, usually seen as a high end modifier of Mercedes G-Wagens and the final result will be very spendy.

 

Ooh, I do like that!

[Happyoldgit]

This morning I had to pop over to Attleborough so thought I would call in to take a look and have a chat about the Grenadier in what used to be Bussey's Ford showroom....

Sadly I could only view it from outside the showroom, despite the Ford Puma parked outside the lights were off, doors  locked and not a soul to be seen. Subsequent digging in their somewhat convoluted website reveals that apparently Saturday viewing is by appointment only which is not very handy or enticing to those who are busy on weekdays.  

 

[Stellaghost]

4 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

This morning I had to pop over to Attleborough so thought I would call in to take a look and have a chat about the Grenadier in what used to be Bussey's Ford showroom....

Sadly I could only view it from outside the showroom, despite the Ford Puma parked outside the lights were off, doors  locked and not a soul to be seen. Subsequent digging in their somewhat convoluted website reveals that apparently Saturday viewing is by appointment only which is not very handy or enticing to those who are busy on weekdays.  

 

 

 

Must be a trick of the light because the front bumper on that looks colossal, it would be one of the first things I would want to change to improve approach angle, could always put some 404's under it I suppose.........

Regards Stephen