Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Escape]

I went to see a s/h 2013 Puma yesterday for a customer. Asking price is €40k, with little room for negotiation. Some options and kit fitted, but it drove poorly, probably due to the ECU remap that seemed to have killed all low down grunt. For what he wants/need, I think I'm gonna recommend a Grenadier (there, back on topic! 🙂 ).

[Arjan]

I drove a Grenadier - Pre Production on AT plates - a few months ago after some serious talks with the accountant for it to be a company car here in France.

The trailmaster version - so winch etc. was all there - and the vehicle itself did just what I expected. Good power, quit, seriously good brakes etc. Seats are some of the best I have sat in for a long time and playing in the field it showed to be quit capable. On the road, no complains with plenty of power, smooth gearbox en quiet.

However, the "cockpit style" switches, the centre console and serious amounts of plastic under the bonnet are not my thing. Worse is the "under the rear bench" spagetti junction of batteries, relais and loads and loads of electronics. Not only something I fear when the swimming gets tough, it stops you from having a flat floor from the rear floor to the front. The winch is not "hidden mounted" - the winch cable simply disappears somewhere in the bumper, the towbar is one I'd rather not put my Hulco on.

Unfortunatly, the "sale farce" present at the event was the deciding factor for passing up on the Grenadier. I came with the intention, paperwork and ability to buy one. I told this to the gentleman who organized the day and he was good at his job and really tried. The people (3) that were there to actually sell the thing were more interested in the few women and the drinks than selling the vehicle. If they can't be ar..d to do their job I can't be bother to spent around € 90k as in FR there is a serious amount of eco tax to pay on these vehicles.

I left and bought something else I will not name here.

Good vehicle let down by the people that are supposed to sell it.

Nothing new there...

 

 

(P.S.- before you ask : yes, I mailed Ineos about it and got no reply.)

[Happyoldgit]

Do you think the spaghetti junction in the back was down to it being a pre-production model that may be carrying additional / trial gizmo's for testing and evaluation purposes? I personally don't have a clue but hopefully someone who does will be along shortly.

[Snagger]

I agree with Escape.  For the Pretender and the Range Rover models, all this ECU derived stuff is fine, but as said, the Grenadier is meant to be a working vehicle for remote locations, one that needs to be dependable and field reparable to fulfill its intended role.  Many of us operate complex machinery, and I suspect we all find it is the electronics, including sensors, hardware and software, that cause the vast bulk of the failures, not the mechanical parts that they control. 
 

Some of this drive is due to legislation, like the emissions standards, ABS and so on.  Much of it is to save production costs.  The former needs to be very carefully considered, as poor execution decreases rather than increases safety.  The latter almost always reduces safety and reliability.  Here’s an example: to save weight (and thus emissions), many modern aircraft have replaced the separate navigation receivers for the different types of nav beacons with “multi mode receivers”.  These MMRs are now more frequently failing because of increased GPS jamming, becoming less tolerant than older GPS receivers, and often don’t recover until powered down and given a full reset.  The trouble is, these MMRs, as well as being more volatile, take down all the nav beacon systems, not just the GPS.  That causes big problems.  But the production engineers and accountants think they have done a fine job.  The same applies to most modern machines, from cars to mobile  phones to space vehicles.

So, like some have said, if you have a vehicle whose reliability and field reparability is not essential, then fine, fill it with ECUs, but for more critical vehicles, then separate systems with simple architecture is going to be better.

[Chicken Drumstick]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

I agree with Escape.  For the Pretender and the Range Rover models, all this ECU derived stuff is fine, but as said, the Grenadier is meant to be a working vehicle for remote locations, one that needs to be dependable and field reparable to fulfill its intended role.  Many of us operate complex machinery, and I suspect we all find it is the electronics, including sensors, hardware and software, that cause the vast bulk of the failures, not the mechanical parts that they control. 

I don't think you can buy such a vehicle new anywhere in the UK, Western Europe or the USA... not sure why people keep thinking that Ineos can or even should do this. Even a side by side UTV has ECUs....

[Arjan]

The "brain" under the rear bench is where it will be, including 2nd. batteries etc.

I can live with ECU's etc. - you can't have a modern car without them - but no flat floor....

[Snagger]

9 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I don't think you can buy such a vehicle new anywhere in the UK, Western Europe or the USA... not sure why people keep thinking that Ineos can or even should do this. Even a side by side UTV has ECUs....

I understand that some are unavoidable in 1st world nations.  The problem is having so many, and having them networked.  I still don’t see the need for computers to control lighting, heating, wipers or seats.

[deep]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I understand that some are unavoidable in 1st world nations.  The problem is having so many, and having them networked.  I still don’t see the need for computers to control lighting, heating, wipers or seats.

There is obviously an ECU that controls the electric windows in my Freelander 2.  Every now and then, the windows inexplicably change their "behaviour".  Frequently, different windows behave in different ways and, at the moment, one window thinks going fully up and then half way down is, in fact, fully up.  A computer controlling electric windows????  Bonkers.  Actually, there is a lot that is bonkers on that car, either because of the terribly designed Volvo motor or the bad choices made by the computer engineers.  What worries me, is that it is now 14 years old and so 14 years behind the current excess of electronics.  It isn't getting better.

Will the Grenadier be better or worse?  My expectation is that it will have more electronics, for reasons dictated by legislation, but the dumb choices should be far less of an issue and I'd expect the failure rate to be less.  Frankly, in this day and age, that is the best we can expect.  Fair enough venting a little about that here (we all do a bit) but, on balance, I wouldn't put the Grenadier aside for unavoidable complexity.  Anyway, I won't be buying one in the immediate future but that decision is because I have bought a few acres and need a digger more...

[Chicken Drumstick]

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

I understand that some are unavoidable in 1st world nations.  The problem is having so many, and having them networked.  I still don’t see the need for computers to control lighting, heating, wipers or seats.

It’s because components are built and designed individually by loads of different companies. You can’t really have them working from one central location. As it would no longer be modular and you wouldn’t be able to reuse across different vehicles/models. 
 

There are plenty of use cases why you would need to have finer programmable control over many items in car. 

[Snagger]

6 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

It’s because components are built and designed individually by loads of different companies. You can’t really have them working from one central location. As it would no longer be modular and you wouldn’t be able to reuse across different vehicles/models. 
 

There are plenty of use cases why you would need to have finer programmable control over many items in car. 

Any car is going to have light switches, wiper switches, heater controls and so on.  All are also going have the units they control.  What is in between doesn’t need to be a computer.  Wiring from switches to lights or motors is transferable.  Plenty of cars used the same heater controls in the past, without the need for electronics and electric stepper motors to move blend valves.  The problem is that too many drivers now expect the feel of a switch rather than a mechanical lever on HEVAC controls, or dainty little switches for lighting, but I don’t think those in the market for working vehicles mind the old fashioned, simpler arrangements.

[FridgeFreezer]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:38 AM, Chicken Drumstick said:

I don't think you can buy such a vehicle new anywhere in the UK, Western Europe or the USA... not sure why people keep thinking that Ineos can or even should do this. Even a side by side UTV has ECUs....

I completely understand the reasons - I'm just harking back to what Ineos were originally promising everyone that got them all excited in the first place that this thing was going to be a "proper" 4x4 nothing like the awful new Defender, cheaper and simpler and blah blah blah...

I was sceptical then and I'm bemused now - it seems they've ended up with something almost as complex and almost as expensive (and arguably no better looking). I suspect most folks looking for a true utility truck will still be buying Japanese pickups.

[deep]

5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I completely understand the reasons - I'm just harking back to what Ineos were originally promising everyone that got them all excited in the first place that this thing was going to be a "proper" 4x4 nothing like the awful new Defender, cheaper and simpler and blah blah blah...

I was sceptical then and I'm bemused now - it seems they've ended up with something almost as complex and almost as expensive (and arguably no better looking). I suspect most folks looking for a true utility truck will still be buying Japanese pickups.

That makes very little sense.  They are not competing vehicles.  If you want a pickup truck, you buy a pick up truck.  If you want a van body or station wagon, that's what you buy.  If what is behind the seat doesn't matter, you're not really buying a purpose built vehicle and won't be looking at the likes of a Grenadier, Defender or G Wagen (but you might and probably should consider a Suzuki Jimny).  Plus the Grenadier is nowhere near as complicated as the Defender...

Edit - Have you actually looked at a Japanese pick up truck lately?  They are every bit as complicated (electronically speaking) as the Grenadier.  Mechanically, many still use cart horse suspension and, last time I looked, rear brakes from the 1960s but, otherwise, they bristle with all the doodads the modern buyer thinks he/she wants, with a considerably lesser off-road, utility focus.  They are four-wheel drive cars with a built-in trailer, that's all.

Edited December 17, 2022 by deep
completeness

[FridgeFreezer]

Just going back to the early hype about how rufty-tufty and utilitarian this thing was supposed to be, everything the new Defender wasn't, a proper working truck, sensible price, no unnecessary electrickery, etc. etc. and comparing to where we are now with production models rolling out.

I'm not saying a full-body Grenadier is exactly equivalent to X Y or Z but for a lot of "utility" users (as opposed to the awful suburban posers the new Defender is aimed at) there will / would supposedly be a toss-up between a Grenadier and a mass-market pickup or even a van of some sort.

[Chicken Drumstick]

24 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Just going back to the early hype about how rufty-tufty and utilitarian this thing was supposed to be, everything the new Defender wasn't, a proper working truck, sensible price, no unnecessary electrickery, etc. etc. and comparing to where we are now with production models rolling out.

I'm not saying a full-body Grenadier is exactly equivalent to X Y or Z but for a lot of "utility" users (as opposed to the awful suburban posers the new Defender is aimed at) there will / would supposedly be a toss-up between a Grenadier and a mass-market pickup or even a van of some sort.

I don’t think that was ever promised. Do you have any references from Ineos?

That said, it is way more simple and IMO better looking than the new Defender. Certainly it is on par with a well specced Hilux or Ranger. 
 

And the reality is. It was never going to compete with the likes of Ford or Toyota. They don’t have the infrastructure or economies of scale. If you want a cheap no frills utility vehicle. Go buy one. If you want a rugged properly capable 4x4 that could double as a cool daily driver and be extremely practical. Then the Grenadier certainly ticks a lot of boxes. 

[landroversforever]

It would be interesting to see a grenadier against a 70 series Toyota for electronics.

[Bowie69]

A 30 year old design vs 2?

 

[landroversforever]

4 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

A 30 year old design vs 2?

 

More thinking that I suspect there’s more in a 70 than people might think. 

[Bowie69]

Obviously massive electronics around the V8 engine, which is the same as in the 200, and the coming V6 will be even more draped in electrickery. 

Still a manual box, and some/all come with windy windows still!

[FridgeFreezer]

11 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I don’t think that was ever promised. Do you have any references from Ineos?

No I haven't memorised every announcement and PR piece as it happens I'm talking generally about the fuss & hype here and elsewhere when this was announced and all the talk about this being soooo much better than the new Defender, as if Ineos were somehow going to be turning out brand new 200TDi 90's for £17k... and the reality of what's been delivered is actually really not so different either from the new Defender or from several other alternatives on the market, and for plenty of good reasons that were entirely predictable.

[jeremy996]

37 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

No I haven't memorised every announcement and PR piece as it happens I'm talking generally about the fuss & hype here and elsewhere when this was announced and all the talk about this being soooo much better than the new Defender, as if Ineos were somehow going to be turning out brand new 200TDi 90's for £17k... and the reality of what's been delivered is actually really not so different either from the new Defender or from several other alternatives on the market, and for plenty of good reasons that were entirely predictable.

There are always going to be issues where marketing crashes into practical reality. All vehicles are compromises and anyone who takes marketing as gospel truth will be disappointed. 

The Grenadier is a vehicle seeking a niche; for me, a projected long life and a maintenance/service manual delivered to the end owner is a better fit than a low end new Defender as a work truck, family vehicle and basis for customisation. Ineos have apparently understood the desire for a more fault tolerant vehicle, capable of being maintained outside of a conventional dealer network. That they are embracing user customisation is an element of clear, blue water between them and JLR, who appear to have killed and eaten the golden goose, (for new vehicles).

I do not want an new JLR vehicle and I have met a few people who will never buy another new one; usually because the dealer experience was less than positive. 

[ThreePointFive]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

No I haven't memorised every announcement and PR piece as it happens I'm talking generally about the fuss & hype here and elsewhere when this was announced and all the talk about this being soooo much better than the new Defender, as if Ineos were somehow going to be turning out brand new 200TDi 90's for £17k... and the reality of what's been delivered is actually really not so different either from the new Defender or from several other alternatives on the market, and for plenty of good reasons that were entirely predictable.

The information from Grenadier has been notably vague throughout, it has allowed people to project their every want and desire upon it to the point it's become a complete unicorn. I would say this has been entirely deliberate.

What I struggle with is how a vehicle with this complexity at this price point is doing anything that a base spec G Wagen or Defender II isn't, but with added unknowns over build quality and reliability. If anything, the inclusion of a BMW powertrain is a worrying sign for the latter.

13 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

If you want a rugged properly capable 4x4 that could double as a cool daily driver and be extremely practical.

Change this statement to talk about the Defender II and I'm afraid still holds up for me. If anything, I think the Defender will end up being more capable off road. Yes, through electronic 'cheating' but who cares how you got where you need to go?

All of this confusion is a direct result of Jimmy's statement along the lines that LR had betrayed it's original customer base and he would heroically build the successor to the Defender, for the everyman that needed a working vehicle and wouldn't spend new Defender money on something that has to work. What is the Grenadier doing to meet that mission statement when all comparisons with the original no longer apply? Does it really come down to looking sort of like one if you squint? 

The real new-Defender is a Jimny.

[jeremy996]

2 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

The real new-Defender is a Jimny.

Unfortunately for me, no; it's just not big enough, cannot tow enough and is in even shorter supply than a new Defender. 

Suzuki dealers do seem to do well on user satisfaction surveys.

[geoffbeaumont]

3 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Suzuki dealers do seem to do well on user satisfaction surveys.

Therefore definitely not a successor to the defender then? 😄

[jeremy996]

Picked up from https://www.quattroruote.it/news/mercato/2022/12/15/ineos_grenadier_italia.html , an Italian article with a slightly whimsical Google translation, some timing details on the baby electric and the doublecab pickup. Favourite line; "69,290 euros for the Utility Wagon work version to 78,485 euros for the more bourgeois Station Wagon versions,":- 

La Grenadier lands in Italy

Alexander Mirra

 Posted 12/16/2022 

 

 

Previou

 

 

 

 

With production starting in October, the Ineos Grenadier is ready to conquer the main European markets, including Italy. Klaus Hartmann, European manager of Ineos Automotive, explains it to us, intercepted at an event for the launch of the off-road vehicle: "Our Italian partners are receiving the first cars to show to customers and in the coming weeks we will be able to go to dealerships to admire the car ". In addition to the launch of the Grenadier, there is also a major expansion of the range in the pipeline: "The pick-up will arrive before Christmas 2023", adds Hartmann, "but we are also working on a smaller electric Grenadier for 2025-2026" .   

Everything is ready.Customer deliveries of the new 4x4 will begin in the first quarter of 2023, with high expectations for Italy: "Italy will be our second market, after Germany," says Hartmann. Also for these forecasts, our country can already count on 12 locations for sales and assistance services, as well as five sites for maintenance only. As for the sales network, we are talking about small showrooms with their own corporate identity, linked to large retailers: "Almost all of them are among the top 10-20 retailers", explains Stefano Gavioli, sales manager for our market. "Our choice of both sales and service is to cover highway directives, West to East, North to South,

Specialist means. The Grenadier, which we have already had the opportunity to drive , is a specialist off-road vehicle, a "species" that seemed to have almost completely disappeared from the European market: box-section ladder frame, three lockable differentials from Eaton Industries, Tremec gearbox two-speed and a series of accessories for the great 4x4 enthusiasts. According to the British company, this car has practically no competitors: "Land Rover has taken the road of SUVs, the Jeep range is very different from what we offer, while the Mercedes G-Class has much higher prices". is the comment - with the flavor of challenge - by Hartmann.

Diverse clientele.Certainly, the clientele to which the Grenadier is aimed arouses curiosity. According to Gavioli, in Italy there is certainly the "enthusiast", i.e. "those who really want this type of vehicle" and who for years have not found similar ones on the new market; but there are also "those who need it, i.e. the professional user: we have received many visits from people with activities in the countryside or in the mountains", explains the manager. Finally, there are those who interpret the car as a distinctive image object: the world of lifestyle, moreover, is far from foreign to that of the new off-road vehicle, so much so that Ineos has started a collaboration with the brand of Belstaff clothing for the Trialmaster and Fieldmaster launch editions, inspired by the homonymous outerwear delivered as a gift to the first customers.

Made in France. In any case, such a specialized and premium-range vehicle requires a well-prepared sales network, so much so that various sales representatives and their employees also attended a training session at the French plant in Hambach, acquired by Mercedes in 2020 . This is the historic Smart production site, where Ineos continues today to produce the small EQ fortwo, now close to retirement, on behalf of Daimler (and Geely). After all, the German group and the British giant have had good commercial relations for years, so much so that Ineos is one of the main sponsors of the Mercedes team in Formula 1: which is why Lewis Hamilton has already tested the Grenadier. Having said that, the collaboration with Stuttgart does not extend to the engines of the new off-road vehicle: in fact, the 3.0-liter six-cylinder units of the rival BMW can be found inside the bonnet of the car, i.e. the B57 biturbo diesel engine with 249 HP and 550 Nm and the B58 turbo of 286 HP and 455 Nm.

The assistance. As mentioned, the maintenance of the Grenadier is entrusted to the workshops of the 12 dealers present throughout Italy and to another five assistance points scattered throughout the peninsula: "All our workshops must comply with high quality standards, because that of the Grenadier is a high price (ranging from 69,290 euros for the Utility Wagon work version to 78,485 euros for the more bourgeois Station Wagon versions, editor's note) and the customer expects to find quality inside the workshop", explains Domenico Limardo, aftersales manager for our market. Also for this reason, the workshops that will deal with the Grenadier "will receive training, special tools and ad hoc diagnostics ". As for the maintenance intervals, the manufacturer provides coupons every year or 20,000 kilometres, while the general guarantee has a duration of five years with unlimited mileage, which rises to 12 for the anti-perforation cover of the ladder frame and bodywork components .  

Edited December 19, 2022 by jeremy996
URL details of original Italian.

[Snagger]

19 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Unfortunately for me, no; it's just not big enough, cannot tow enough and is in even shorter supply than a new Defender. 

Suzuki dealers do seem to do well on user satisfaction surveys.

The second sentence goes a long way to justifying the statement that the Jimmy is not the new Defender!  In fairness to most aspects of the Jimmy, other than size, I agree that it is more in keeping with the Defender than either the Pretender or the Grenadier.  It’s more like a modern Series I.  I rather like them - there are quite a few around here.  It’s a pity they didn’t comply well enough with emissions rules to have had more success in Europe.