Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[jeremy996]

YouTube video from 9 days ago - Independence Overland.

Nothing particularly startling, but thoughtful and constructive.

 

[jeremy996]

Another new Youtube video, this time from Ineos, featuring Sir Jim Radcliffe and some F1 driver......

Interesting comments about on-road behaviour, although hardly unbiased!

 

[Maverik]

Weirdly I think thats one of the more informative films - give it to someone that doesn't give a fig, has no real interest in off-roading/off-roaders and was in in for a jolly. - Drive it like you stole it comes to mind.

I spec'd one from the website yesterday, I'm a tad disappointed I need to buy a house before I can get one of these!

[jeremy996]

From Unsealed4x4, (Australia). https://unsealed4x4.com.au/an-interview-with-the-man-behind-the-ineos-grenadier/

 

An interview with the man behind the INEOS Grenadier

by Dan Everett03/11/2022, 9:20 am

In a world quickly being overtaken by EVs and shareholder-driven beige appliances trying to pass as 4X4s, one manufacturer not only reckons they can make their own mark, but they can do it while giving 4X4ers exactly what they need. Hot off getting up close and personal with the newest 4X4 on the market, we recently had the opportunity to sit down with Justin Hocevar, the man behind the INEOS Grenadier rollout across Australia. Arguably one of the most important men for the future of tough ute’s in the Aussie outback. Here’s what he had to say.

Unsealed4X4:

Justin, mate, thanks for taking the time to meet with us. It looks like there are exciting things happening at Ineos, and the first Grenadiers are finally rolling off the production line, Aussies want to know, when will we start seeing them out on the tracks locally? 

Justin Hocevar:

Thanks Dan. There’s a lot going on at the moment, as they say Rome wasn’t built overnight but all our key indicators are strong. Our reservation numbers are very strong, the conversion of those to orders are strong. The Australian market is ranked #3 for Grenadier orders in the world, only just behind Germany in #2. We’re starting to roll into full production series cars now. 

We’re expecting full-fledged demo vehicles in December, with first customer orders coming shortly after. There’s no delay in orders based on the market. Australia V U.K. V Germany. Petrol V Diesel. Left or Right hand drive. We’re well in the mix as a key launch market. We’ve got a few key vehicles we need to fill first. Display vehicles, press cars, and our own fleet. There’s still a few shipping issues too. Out of Europe there’s about 3 Roll-on, Roll-off ships a week down from 6 or 7. It’s just like the airlines at the moment, every plane is chockers and so is every ship. There’s also quarantine issues, shipments are even being held to fumigate for stink bugs. 

 

U4X4:

Australian 4X4 owners are a very unique market, unlike any other out there. Reliability is one of the most important factors considered when looking at any vehicle. What sort of R&D has gone into ensuring Grenadiers last the distance? 

Justin:

We didn’t beat around the bush going to MAGNA Manufacturing. They’ve been building military spec vehicles for decades. They’re a contract manufacturer for the G-Wagons, sure, they build the high-end ones, but they also build the military specificied Professional versions too. They’re experts. 

Not only that, we employed all the engineers that had the know-how. We went to BMW, Eibach, Recaro, Bosch, ZF, Brembo. All of the experienced players, and said ‘Right, how do we all work together to integrate all of these tried and tested products into a holistic solution?” It’s all built on a heavy-duty frame. It’s been electrodipped, powder coated, wax injected, and comes with a 12-year perforation warranty. People looking to our vehicles appreciate that. 

When we went to BMW for the powertrain, we’ve gone to them and actually de-tuned these drivelines to be appropriate for the use cases. Reliability was key here. We’ve looked at the cooling systems. Are they up for low speed, high stress, high heat situations. When we put the fuel systems onto the vehicle, petrols get two inline filters. Diesels get two inline filters and a water separator. We’ve reduced the service intervals too. In Europe they’re 20,000km apart, ours are 15,000km apart. 

We’ve tried to look at how we prepare the vehicle from a design point to be as robust as possible. Our customers are conservative so we have to communicate in a different way to others. We test in plain sight. We put people in hand built early prototypes. It allowed people to see what’s gone into the platform.

U4X4:

The new vehicle manufacturing industry is going through some pretty rapid changes. There’s a lot of challenger brands popping up. Why do you think it is about these new manufacturers that has people’s attention? 

Justin:

I think we’ve seen a real convergence of some big themes going on, if you look at the trajectory that 4X4s have taken. They’re all being homogenised into SUVs. The traditional 4X4s are getting left behind. When you look at shared platforms, the big shift in preparing for EVs, the pressures on manufacturing costs, and on shareholder returns. We’re just seeing people being left behind by the big manufacturers. 

We’ve been able to acquire a low-volume plant, it already had a big investment that was already setup with everything brand new and configure it for the Grenadier. We can produce up to 30,000 vehicles a year and have a viable business. The big businesses wouldn’t get something like that off the ground with the shareholders. In 2022 you wouldn’t get a body-on frame, solid axle, ICE setup to market from a traditional manufacturer. You need someone who can meet that niche. We’ve hit the holes left behind by the Y61, the 80, the 105. Before they went into the SUV evolution. The new ones are great modern 4X4s, they are, but they’re not what every customer wants. 

U4X4:

For some 4X4ers, modifying their rig is just as important as where it can take them. How customisable are the Grenadiers, and what sort of aftermarket options will be available? 

Justin:

We’re very alert to this. When we look at our buying types, we have 4 of them, every single one sees the adaption to their use as critical. We consider the Grenadier as a blank canvas, a platform to build from. It’s almost like a commercial vehicle where the vehicle is just the start. We try to consider the diversity of our customers, and what they’ll want from their vehicle. 

First and foremost, we consider the range of options and accessories we can put on the vehicle, as options from Ineos. We’ve got an integrated winch, a steel bumper, rock sliders, side steps, a roo bar. These are all things we’ve done. We’ve got pre-wiring in the vehicle, dual battery systems. It means you don’t have to rely on the aftermarket. That said, we’ve engaged with the aftermarket already, we’re not trying to protect what’s ours here. We want the aftermarket to work in parallel with us. We’ve gone to them and shown them the holes in our portfolio, shared our CAD data, invited them to early prototypes and pledged to give a select few early access to confirm what they’ve designed. We’re hopeful that all results in them being able to advance their timeline for development. 

U4X4:

Australia has some of the biggest expanses of wilderness in the world and we’re often many days drive from anything resembling a city. What sort of support is there for warranty, services, and spare parts? 

Justin:

We absolutely understand that our reputation will live or die by our ability to service our vehicles after they’ve been produced. You hit a roo, a pothole, something fatigues, things happen. When you’re putting things through arduous use, things are going to happen. While we’ve got traditional values in what we want our 4X4s to be, our business model is contemporary. Before we’ve even delivered a vehicle we’ve set up 30 agents country wide ready to go. We’ve got one in every capital city, the rest are all in regional centres. They’re in Dubbo, McKay, Townsville, they’re in Geraldton on the west coast.

We’ve looked at parts support too, getting parts to those agents is critical. We’ve got three parts distribution hubs around the world. We can drop ship anywhere we want. Belgium is the first, the second is Melbourne coming online early 2023, then the next is in North America. That means we can stock locally and deliver to our agent network. Even if you’re at Tibooburra at Joe’s 4X4 repairs, and they’ve got a tractor mechanic there, or you’re half capable yourself, you’ve got online/offline access to our electronic parts store. It’s like the bouncing ball in karaoke that’ll guide you through everything. Undo this bolt, use this torque setting, put this item there. Then get those parts sent to the nearest Big 4 caravan park. We’re not going to stand in the way, it’s open-source thinking. If somebody knows what they’re doing, why would we stand in the way. 

Grenadiers have begun rolling off the production line

U4X4:

The Grenadier has caught people’s attention down under. There’s always a crowd of on-lookers wherever it goes. But we’re a nation of dual cab utes. When can we expect a dual cab Grenadier? 

Justin:

There is something absolutely in the pipeline, there is a dual cab coming. It’ll come with a tub, it’ll come with a cab chassis. We’ll be making an announcement around its timing in the coming months. Australia is framing up to be a key and very important market for this vehicle, everyone globally is looking to Australia with great interest. The network we’ve stood up is champing at the bit.

Edited November 4, 2022 by jeremy996
chopping out the web page code

[ThreePointFive]

I would have liked a lot more technical input from Sir Lewis about the handling. Besides Chris Harris and a few others, he is one of the few people that has the ability to put those qualities into words that others can understand so a missed opportunity. It might not be a "handling" car but it's significant to sales for people to know how it is to drive.

Otherwise a nice video.

You'll also notice the edit after Jimmy asks Sir Lewis what he thinks of the looks....

 

[jeremy996]

Received from Ineos by e-mail on Friday 04/11/2022.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by jeremy996
video would not run

[Jamie_grieve]

I see the UK Grenadier prices have increased dramatically today. Is that a reflection of the Pound being at it’s lowest level for decades or something else going on? Is it rhe same in other countries?

 It’s up maybe 12% or thereabouts.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Jamie_grieve

[Retroanaconda]

Lots of chat on the Facebook groups about it. Apparently existing orders in prior to today are price protected but any new orders have jumped big time.

There was an implication from a few posts that there were also increases for European orders. The sorry state of the pound will certainly not help.

[deep]

Looks like a slight increase here in NZ.  We have done better than most places with recent economic pressures but the government expects us to catch up (in a bad way) in coming months!

[jeremy996]

Ineos have sent me an e-mail confirming that existing orders, including mine, will not be subject to the increase. The low level of the £ is just one of the factors that will have driven the increases, they cite energy and raw materials.

VIEW IN BROWSER Hi Jeremy, You may hear on the grapevine that we have made the difficult decision to increase Grenadier pricing. This is not a decision we have taken lightly, but as a business we just cannot absorb the significant increase in our cost base – particularly energy and raw materials – since we confirmed our launch pricing.  From your perspective, the good news is that this is for new orders only, placed from 9th November 2022. Since you have already placed your order, your purchase price will remain unchanged. As you would expect, in recognition of your steadfast support and enthusiasm on the Grenadier journey. We hope this puts your mind at rest and as always, if you have any questions, please do get in touch. CONTACT US Thanks The Grenadier team

[jeremy996]

Had a closer look at the new pricing of the Grenadier. The new price for a Grenadier in the specification I have ordered, before on-road costs is £65,655 compared to my pre-09/11/2022 cost of £59,312. So an increase of 10.69% on my specific order. Ouch!

Would I buy a Grenadier on the revised prices? I'm not sure, so I am glad I have been told that I will not be subject to the increases. I was already far outside of my comfort zone on price, so £5000+ could well have been the final straw. (The last new car I bought was 2001 and £20,000). There appears to be no such thing as a cheap new Defender, so the choices do not look broad or cheap.

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, jeremy996 said:

Had a closer look at the new pricing of the Grenadier. The new price for a Grenadier in the specification I have ordered, before on-road costs is £65,655 compared to my pre-09/11/2022 cost of £59,312. So an increase of 10.69% on my specific order. Ouch!

Would I buy a Grenadier on the revised prices? I'm not sure, so I am glad I have been told that I will not be subject to the increases. I was already far outside of my comfort zone on price, so £5000+ could well have been the final straw. (The last new car I bought was 2001 and £20,000). There appears to be no such thing as a cheap new Defender, so the choices do not look broad or cheap.

I suspect they'd have lost a lot of customers had that price increase been added to all builds.

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, jeremy996 said:

 on-road costs is £65,655 

Damn.....

I could buy some nice tools for that kind of money..........

Regards Stephen

[jeremy996]

A new video to me from Australia.

 

[jeremy996]

And the most recent e-mail I have from Ineos:-

Hi Jeremy, Not long now. Your Grenadier is on the way to production, and we’ll be sending you your contract soon. But before we start building your vehicle, we would like to check that your configuration and invoicing details are correct. If you have any concerns, please contact your local retailer who can support. Signing your contract You must sign your contract before we can get going on your build. And remember, once you’ve sent it to us we’re unable to refund your deposit. Making your final payment Once we’ve received your signed contract, we’ll be in touch to discuss how you can pay your outstanding balance, which will be due before delivery. You’ll be able to choose from a range of finance offers and speak to your retail partner about a part exchange. The configurator tool has a handy finance calculator to help you work out which option is right for you. Collecting your Grenadier When the big day arrives you’ll collect your Grenadier from your retail partner. We’ll be in touch closer to the time to confirm the exact date for the handover. We’ll provide you with the most accurate date we can, but timings might change. If they do we’ll be in touch. Thanks as always for all your support. It’s been quite an adventure so far and the finish line is in sight. CONTACT US The Grenadier team   My supplying dealer, (Chandlers of Belton, Richard Young), has also been in touch to confirm that the purchase invoice will have the right business name in it, (vital if you want to claim the VAT back). My Grenadier will be a private purchase, so no issues there. They also say they will have a Grenadier in the showroom at the end of December, but they won't have a real demonstrator until the end of January. I'm told my build date is estimated at January 2023, with the projected delivery date of Feb/Mar 2023 looking very likely!

Edited December 8, 2022 by jeremy996
more stuff added

[Retroanaconda]

I was told by the dealer in Edinburgh that it will be January at the earliest for a demonstrator that you can take for an actual test drive, so that tallies.

Still yet to see any real-world feedback on production models so I’m keen to get a go in one once they’re available.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Any dates for SWB versions ?

[jeremy996]

39 minutes ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Any dates for SWB versions ?

Nothing official. The technical types at Ineos Automotive seem to be concentrating on the long wheelbase/double cab at the moment, the next formal launch. The SWB was announced as EV only, so the development journey is likely to be a long one. Nothing useful has been added since the Autocar article in June 2023,   https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ineos-grenadier-get-smaller-pure-electric-4x4-derivative

On the 14/10/2022, AutoExpress had a new article quoting an Ineos Employee, https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/358118/new-ineos-electric-suv-smaller-rugged-roader-way

Edited December 10, 2022 by jeremy996
Adding the Autoexpress article

[jeremy996]

A test drive video from Australia - looks much drier than Newark in November! This shows the screen quite well; the graphics are as I remember from Newark, (when I was not allowed to video whilst in motion).  The steering movement in degrees towards the centre of the screen was very useful when in ruts, easy to see when struggling.

 

[Happyoldgit]

^^What was the noise that sounded a bit like a Cylon voice going off every now and again?

[jeremy996]

3 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

^^What was the noise that sounded a bit like a Cylon voice going off every now and again?

If you mean the "bongs", then that is an error chime, saying something is out of expected parameters. As Ineos has not fully debugged all the software yet, it could be anything from an open door to a blown bulb. 

[FridgeFreezer]

Good job this thing is rufty tufty no-nonsense not like the awful complicated full-of-electrickery new Defender eh?

Touch screens, steering angle display, bongs & robot voices - sounds just like the stripped-out simplicity and minimalism we were all promised at the start of the thread.

[Chicken Drumstick]

26 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Good job this thing is rufty tufty no-nonsense not like the awful complicated full-of-electrickery new Defender eh?

Touch screens, steering angle display, bongs & robot voices - sounds just like the stripped-out simplicity and minimalism we were all promised at the start of the thread.

I don't think that was ever promised tbh.... more people deciding it was what they wanted to have been promised. But just getting the wrong end of the stick.

Also worth noting. There are different specs. So is there an option that has less of these features? I'd guess probably yes, which would then be promise fulfilled even if it was never mentioned

Lastly, if I was paying £60k+ in 2023 for one of these. I'd quite reasonably expect it to be better specced than a £15k Kia.

[jeremy996]

17 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Good job this thing is rufty tufty no-nonsense not like the awful complicated full-of-electrickery new Defender eh?

Touch screens, steering angle display, bongs & robot voices - sounds just like the stripped-out simplicity and minimalism we were all promised at the start of the thread.

Being a luddite only gets you so far. 😉 

Ineos say they have about a quarter of the processors a new Defender uses. There is no way around the emissions requirements, ABS, stability control and tyre monitoring, so some electrickery is unavoidable. Not going as far as intelligent cruise control, blindspot warning, automated braking and similar secondary systems reduces the processor count, but sabotages the Euro-NCAP score, (cannot get full marks without all the toys, see Dacia), and has created a number of moans from North American prospective owners.

Economics drives the flatscreen choices - gauges are pricey, (although programmers are far from cheap).

You cannot win them all.

I've been told that the crash test performance is very good, but nothing has been formally published; I wish they would hurry that up.

[Retroanaconda]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Good job this thing is rufty tufty no-nonsense not like the awful complicated full-of-electrickery new Defender eh?

Touch screens, steering angle display, bongs & robot voices - sounds just like the stripped-out simplicity and minimalism we were all promised at the start of the thread.

It’s also comparably expensive, despite the derision applied to the L663’s price point.