Advice needed re: potential write-off after recent non-fault accident.

[fridayUK]

I recently came back to the site and posted about a non-fault accident we had in our 2008 110 (link copied in below - I’m using a new log-in as the info and associated email for my old “friday” one have been completely lost in The mists of time and one fairly major HD failure!) but yesterday we had some bad news: after stripping the car down, it’s apparent that the ladder chassis is bent. The repairer told me that Land Rover doesn’t advise it to be repaired only replaced and that, due to the age of the car, the insurer will likely want to write it off. 
 

I’ve spent the last 30 years slowly upgrading my cars - keeping them as well as possible and working on them as much as I could myself when my health allowed - with the idea of trying to trade up in some way each time (it’s been a long old process. I’m disabled and not able to work a lot of the time). A Defender was always one of my goals (I fell in love with them when I was a lad) and this car was supposed to be the final link in the chain to either a better specced and younger 110, or possibly even an ex-ambulance that I would get kitted out for travelling in with my family (having previously traded up from a 2.5l and then a TD5 90). To say I’m gutted at the news is an understatement. I’ve spent today completely dumbstruck to be honest and dreading the phone call from his insurance company.
 

I’ve been in a few accidents over the years but only really small stuff, never anything this big where the car looks like it could end up written off so I really just wanted to ask for everyone’s advice on what happens next really: what to expect and what my options could be. I bought the car for £16,500 (which amounted to just under £18,500 after the deposit and finance on the remainder - which I finished paying off last year) but I’m guessing the insurers are going to offer a considerably lower amount if they do decide it’s a write-off. The garage, “Listers Bodywork and Repair” in Droitwich (which was recommended to me by MM4x4 who another member on here kindly told me about) said that most garages wouldn’t touch it now and that it would only be a project for a hobbyist. Even so, they’ve still tendered their full assessment, photos and cost to fix with the other drivers insurance company, so I’m now just waiting for that call. Am I right in thinking that even if it somehow did get fixed, it would always be noted down as an accident write-off? If that’s the case I imagine that would seriously effect the resale value. 
 

At the risk of this sounding like some terrible, cringe-worthy “Britain’s Got Talent” sob-story, the whole accident and the subsequent worry over the insurance has already taken a huge toll on my Crohn’s (my wife has thankfully stepped in to help out where she can). I’m gutted that a car I loved could be potentially scrapped and that the years I’ve spent slowly chipping away to get something special could now suffer a massive blow (we were never exactly flush to begin with but, like everyone, the pandemic has run us completely to the edge financially) but also worried I’m going to make some stupid error and compound the issue all the more. I’m even worrying about stuff like when the use of the hire car will end as we need to get our 6 year old to school - just one of the many questions that seem to form a queue in my head both during the day and when I “try” to go to sleep at night (seeming to fail on that a lot at the moment!).

 

Apologies for the ramble. I’ll be honest, I’ve been dreading writing this post and I’ve been finding seemingly increasing ways to put it off. Writing it all down like this seems to make it all the more real (you’ll notice the time of posting - another fail on the sleep front! 😕).
 

If anyone does have any advice, even if it’s just a little, it really would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks all,

 

Leigh.

 

[Retroanaconda]

As a matter of principle only your own insurer can financially ‘write off’ your car as per the terms of their agreement with you, i.e. they will not pay more than X to repair, where X is a number determined by the market value.

However you will be (or should be) claiming off the other party and their insurer. They do not have this option and legally you have every right to request that they put everything back how it was before the accident, even if this means repair costs of more than the vehicles value or indeed even a straight replacement with another vehicle of similar spec/age/condition.

They will try and fob you off with a write-off and lower value payout but it’s your call in this case not theirs. They may try and claim the vehicle is not safe to be repaired but that’s not really relevant to a Defender as everything can be replaced unlike modern cars with monocoque bodyshells etc.

[Blanco]

In your favour prices are strong at the moment anyway, so lets hope that it doesn't come to arguing the toss and adding to the stress. But in addition to the above good advice, it is worth bearing in mind that insurance companies play with numbers, they have good experience of how much costs grow above estimates, I got my sister's ''written off'' car repaired a couple of years ago by getting the body shop to agree  a fixed price the  insurance company could live with. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[L19MUD]

1 hour ago, Retroanaconda said:

As a matter of principle only your own insurer can financially ‘write off’ your car as per the terms of their agreement with you, i.e. they will not pay more than X to repair, where X is a number determined by the market value.

However you will be (or should be) claiming off the other party and their insurer. They do not have this option and legally you have every right to request that they put everything back how it was before the accident, even if this means repair costs of more than the vehicles value or indeed even a straight replacement with another vehicle of similar spec/age/condition.

They will try and fob you off with a write-off and lower value payout but it’s your call in this case not theirs. They may try and claim the vehicle is not safe to be repaired but that’s not really relevant to a Defender as everything can be replaced unlike modern cars with monocoque bodyshells etc.

This is exactly the advice I was going to give, he other insurer legally cannot write the vehicle off so they have to fix it to pre accident standard. It will not be recorded as an insurance write off if it is repaired instead of written off and a payment to you so that should not be a concern

In my mind there are 4 possible scenarios here;

1 - Accept a payment for the car and it is written off - does not sound like an acceptable scenario and you need to make sure any payment would cover a vehicle of the same standard. You could do this by sending links to adverts of 110's of the same spec/mileage/condition etc and buy something else

2 - Accept payment for the car as above and then buy it back at a reduced value and get repaired yourself. Note this WOULD mean you have a car that is recorded as written off and affect the value

3 - Insist on it being repaired as advised with a new chassis - this is likely to mean you get a galvanized chassis if that is all that is available so this could actually be quite a bonus?

4 - They find someone willing to repair it without replacing the chassis. In all honesty I am surprised the chassis is bent but it is impossible to say looking at it from a picture not stripped down

 

Option 3 sounds the best to me but that doe depend if you need that hire car/they will let you keep it for the much longer duration required

 

[western]

I would be going to check it myself, the initial damage doesn't look to have moved the front chassis leg, the impact would of been disappated by the wing, bumper bending rearwards & the other vehicle.

[reb78]

Agree with all of the above. Easy to say, but stick to your guns and try not to get too stressed about it.

Just a thought, but IF it definitely needs a new chassis, you could get a cost from this lot - http://marsdenautodevelopments.net/contact they fit Richards Chassis. I havent used them but they are associated with Richards as a fitting centre. I was recently quoted something in the region of £4500 for a chassis swap that included the cost of the chassis from somewhere else (not local to you). I am doing the job myself so didnt enquire any further but it might give you an idea of the process. If your vehicle is worth say £16k, then thats just over 25% of the value - I wouldnt think its a write off at that ratio anyway.

[landroversforever]

Have a chat with Matt at Carriage Auto Services. They're further north, but they are used to dealing with supposedly written off defenders and have rebuilt loads to stop them being scrapped. 

Not linked, but just seen a lot of their work on facebook. 

[cackshifter]

Or.. this might be an opportunity. My daughter wrote off our 110 CSW off about 11 years ago, and we bought the remains back from the insurers at about 25% market value. We got it taken to Paul Marsden at Marsden Auto Developments - he rebuilt it on a new galvanised chassis (with some other new bits it needed before the crash - shocks, brake pipes etc). It gave it a new lease of life. I agree with what the others are saying about writing off and there are others about apart from Paul who will rebuild it ( I have no connection with him except as happy customer, he also did our 90).  If the chassis is the least bit in doubt either from alignment or corrosion I would look at doing that or similar.  Shipping it on a flatbed with someone like FAM won't break the bank.

But if you want to keep the vehicle it is definitely within your power to do so.

 

[landroversforever]

Without saying on here saying it.... who is the Defender with? Is it with somewhere of your choosing or some insurance repair 'specialist'.... I use the term loosely. My ex's clio was hit by another driver and they wanted to write it off.... and the garage had just assumed it was going to be and it was pushed into the corner with the various wrecks that were definitely fit for the scrappy. They were most surprised when it turned out it needed getting out to be collected! 

[Eightpot]

I had a corker of a prang a couple of years ago when I offered my broadside to an rapidly oncoming transit van , ended up with a very banana shape 110 and a few bruises.  Insurers offered more than I paid for the car straight away, and let me buy it back at a bargain price.  Didn't bother putting a new chassis on, just sold it on for a profit.  

[oneandtwo]

On 4/1/2021 at 10:19 AM, western said:

I would be going to check it myself, the initial damage doesn't look to have moved the front chassis leg, the impact would of been disappated by the wing, bumper bending rearwards & the other vehicle.

That will have bent the bulkhead outrigger which is new chassis time in the eyes of an insurer. I used to do work on a 2005 90 which had an identical hit, the outrigger was bent back slightly; to any enthusiast it was a couple of hours work, new wing and bulkhead outrigger but as it was a company owned Defender insurance was involved and it was written off and due to chassis damage. Ended up being broken at salvage yard in North West six months later.

 

[landroversforever]

On the other hand, a colleagues 90 took a hit at 45deg into a solid post enough to crush the footwell and was stopped by the outrigger. The outrigger came out completely unscathed?

[fridayUK]

So sorry for not replying to this sooner. As expected the stress triggered my Crohn’s and I’ve been out of action for a bit trying to get things under control.

First off, a genuine thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. Unfortunately things aren’t looking good. Just before my health took a turn I spoke to the other driver’s insurance company and got put through to their repair department. I wanted to sound them out on their position re: repairs vs write-off so I told them that the work would likely be extensive and expensive, that it would involve a chassis replacement and that I didn’t want the car written -off, only repaired. The reply, almost word for word was, “Don’t worry sir, it’ll be repaired, that’s what we’re here for”.  However, I didn’t receive another call from them (one had been scheduled) and so today I chased them up. The agent I spoke to told me in no uncertain terms that the car is a total loss, that I have no legal right to get it repaired to the state it was in before the accident and that they have every right to declare it a write off if they deem it uneconomical to repair. After disputing this he contacted the repair team and apparently no note was made of my previous call. I was then told that the claim could be sent to the engineering department for a second opinion but that in all likelihood it would still be written off. I’m now currently in limbo waiting for a call to see what the upshot of this second assessment is.

I’ve tried reading around the subject and apparently I might be able to dispute the final assessment and request I keep the car and whatever settlement figure they give me minus the salvage value but until I speak to them further it’s all hypothetical.

Bracing for the worst to be honest but again, thanks to everyone for the replies and support. It’s definitely not how I saw my time with this car ending.

Edited April 14, 2021 by fridayUK

[Retroanaconda]

As expected they are fobbing you off in the hope of getting out of paying for an expensive repair. With you being no-fault you are in a strong position. Taking it to legal action is the next step if they refuse to be reasonable. The cost of the repair compared to the value of the vehicle is irrelevant in this scenario - i.e. an economic write-off is impossible. They could try it on safety grounds but I’d push back on this as it isn’t some modern euro box, the chassis are readily available new as are pretty much all the panels and other parts, so there is no reason why it cannot be safely repaired.

[Snagger]

Contact the insurance ombudsman.  Given that Defender values are skyrocketing, showing the value of comparable vehicles should make it easier to demonstrate the financial viability of repair.

[Retroanaconda]

Missing the point, the financial viability of the repair is irrelevant in this case.

Your own insurer has a clause in their contract with you that they will only pay out a certain amount in relation to the value of the vehicle, which allows them to deem the insured vehicle financially unviable to repair and therefore write it off. With the other party 100% at fault there is no such agreement and that party is liable for all damages their actions, or inactions, have caused. It’s their insurers job to cover those liabilities.

If someone crashes their £500 Fiesta off the road and into the front of a house and does £50k worth of damage then the insurer will pay out, no one would financially write off a house. It’s just that for normal vehicle accidents the insurance companies prey on peoples misunderstanding of the legal situation to dodge their responsibilities.

[Tanuki]

Presumably, someone-somewhere is covering the cost of your hiring an equivalent vehicle while this insurance dispute is going on?

If so, the costs of this must now be truly astronomical - far greater than the repair-costs!

Your lawyer [you do have one I guess - probably through your insurer's 'legal cover' scheme] could point this out to the third-party's insurers and tell them to get their fingers out of their collective bums in order to save themselves from the ever-growing costs.

[A couple of decades back, my daily-driver, a Scimitar, got rear-ended by a drunk woman in a FIAT. Initially her insurers tried to palm me off with a 'basic' courtesy-car but I really didn't think driving clients around in a Nissan Micra would be good for business. Eventually they caved-in and said I could rent something suitable - I got a Merc C280 Estate, this being the nearest equivalent vehicle they could arrange. After four months driving this - and my weekly faxes (this being before insurers understood email) reminding them of the spectacularly-growing rental tab they realised it would be cheaper to just pay for my Scimitar to be rebuilt at a GRP-specialist classic-car-garage of my choice - which duly happened. And they paid-up all the rental-costs for the Merc...]

I like lawyers!

[reb78]

As above - I am sure your insurance company could give you legal advice on this. 
 

I dont know if @cactus is still on here but I think he used to work in this area so may have some advice. 

[fridayUK]

Thanks guys. 
 

I was thinking about contacting my own insurance company to enquire about legal aid so I’ll definitely get onto that tomorrow.

And yep, they’ve been forking out for a fully specced Lexus 4x4 since the afternoon of the accident which I imagine has already cost them a fair bit!

[Steve King]

Listers in Droitwich would certainly do a good job, however they are very expensive! Suffice it to say that a service plus a fuel filter housing change cost well over a grand! I’ve not used them since!

Whilst I worked in insurance for over 20 years, alas it was not in car insurance! As to the third party insurers liability to you, clearly there will be situations where it will prove impossible to restore the car e.g. damage by fire or a loss at sea (ferry sinking) etc. The insurers should try to put you back in the same position that you were in before the loss.

As you have spent time and money upgrading your car, one solution would be for a suitable vehicle to be upgraded to the same spec as the damaged one. This could possibly allow some parts from the damaged car to be fitted to the new car.

For the moment though, speak to your insurer and a solicitor if you have one. Also try to locate small bodyshops that can carry out a chassis swap etc.

It might be worth calling Keith Baker in Wooten Wawen to see if he can do the work or perhaps recommend someone if he can’t help. Keith’s phone number is 07976 732134

[Eightpot]

To be honest I'd be making a nuisance about repair for a few days, then when they're totally fed up talking to you switch tack and get a healthy payout so you can buy another and move on.

You could be driving and enjoying your new car in a matter of days rather than fighting for months then waiting for a rebuild.  

[pat_pending]

To those suggesting to the op that the insurance company are obliged to write an open cheque for repairs, I suggest you might want to read up on betterment.

"Betterment will apply when, in the course of repairing an accident-damaged vehicle, a new part is used to replace an old part. Betterment is a portion of the cost owners may have to bear when a damaged vehicle part is replaced with a brand new part".

In this case a new chassis may significantly add to the value of the vehicle as it was pre accident.

It's not often applied, however in this case, if the op pursues his desire to have an uneconomical repair carried out he may find himself with a bill of his own for the added value the repair has given the vehicle.

My advice FWIW, would be, keep the vehicle with a settlement figure less salvage value, and get it repaired at a proper independent Land Rover specialists using second hand/non genuine parts.

You could probably get this done for far less than the estimate the insurance company would have received, you may even turn a small profit.

There would also be no record of the vehicle being "written off".

Edited April 15, 2021 by pat_pending