Roamerdrive (Defender) noise

[Stellaghost]

41 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

Do you literally add the individual rollers one by one? These gears seem to have them double stacked which would make it very difficult...

Grease is your friend regards Stephen

[Nonimouse]

52 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

Do you literally add the individual rollers one by one? These gears seem to have them double stacked which would make it very difficult...

a generous blob of grease and stick the rollers in one at a time. It's a laugh a minute and rarely goes wrong

[Peaklander]

I’ve had another reply from Ray after he viewed this thread. Repairs and upgrades seem possible. He says the planet gears are usually destroyed by excessive temperatures caused by hard driving with the overdrive engaged.

He’s advising I replace the bearings, the planet assemblies, the sun shaft and the baulk rings.

There is an upgrade which will fit as I have a later unit.

Quote: “upgrade is to replace the cone on the planetary assembly with a modified one ( I'm quite proud of this mod.) Externally it looks the same but it incorporates an annular female ring and radial oil passages. This forces more oil into the planetary shafts using centrifugal force and the assembly is better lubricated and runs cooler”.

Next is to get a shopping list together for local sourced bits such as bearings and baulk rings and the specials which will be direct from Roamer Corp.

This has helped me decide on the ATBs. Guess why

🥲

[Wytze]

Are you going to fit the ATB to the LT?  

[Peaklander]

No decided that although it’s nice and kicks in before I would notice the wheelspin, I can’t justify with my use and the cost.

In fact I’m going to upgrade my open front diff to 4 pin and consider my driving technique and where appropriate, control tyre pressure instead.
Edit @Hybrid_From_Hell I left a message on your ansaphone 

[Wytze]

Okay,  is the center diff getting a crosspin aswell, then?  

[Snagger]

That overdrive looks terrible.  Mine only had limited damage from the transfer box leak, nothing like yours.  I’m surprised by the needle bearings  - mine were mint.  Do you use the unit engaged in lower gears a lot as well as 4th and 5th?  The instructions didn’t have a limitation like the Fairey specifies, but I wonder if the higher torque in those lower gears has overloaded them.  Looks more like oil starvation, though.

I don’t know how many differences are generational rather than just Series vs Defender, but the construction is significantly different to mine.  I think most of the differences are because of how the LT230 rear bearing is done,  it there are many other differences - mine doesn’t have any of those thrust washers or triangular shims for the planet gears, at least as I recall.  The difficult circlip I was referring to was the one you removed second, having removed the planet carrier.  On mine, I had to remove that in order to remove the carrier, so was working through the little gap where you see the clip.

 

[Peaklander]

2 hours ago, Wytze said:

is the center diff getting a crosspin aswell, then? 

Yes I am specifying that and a sleeved case. I have asked Dave Ashcroft in my email to him today if a reconditioned Intermediate shaft and rear output shaft would be ok or if I should go new OEM. The current lead-time is three weeks and I might even deliver it to them myself to speed things up and save me sorting a pallet etc.

 

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

The difficult circlip I was referring to was the one you removed second, having removed the planet carrier.  On mine, I had to remove that in order to remove the carrier, so was working through the little gap where you see the clip.

I think that's why it took you a couple of hours whereas I was significantly longer! It's a very long way down between the input shaft, inside the output shaft and the clip is the lower of the two that are in there.

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

Looks more like oil starvation, though

Yes, creating heat. I am sure that it wasn't driving style, either by me or the previous owner who I have talked to today. I do sometimes leave it engaged, as I like the slightly higher 1st gear but this isn't very often and certainly not when driving around here. I think it was driven that way before I bought it but it is supposed to handle that.

[Snagger]

I have contemplated an oil pump to feed the rear bearing, feeding from the transfer case.  If I went to that trouble, I’d have installed a small oil cooler too.  The finned sump cover on the Series unit doesn’t add any quantity, but it seems to help enough with temperature unless driven at high speed for a long time on the motorway, where transfer boxes already get hot.  I thought a small bore pipe into the centre of the rear housing, the middle of that rear bearing would help.  Maybe synthetic oil would be enough and avoid the need for more cooling, but oil starvation still appears to be an issue in your case (mine failed specifically because of a bad gasket between the transfer box and gear box, and topping up every 100 miles untilI got home transpired not to cut it). Hopefully, his oil-feeding new carrier and idler shafts will prevent a reoccurrence.

I wonder if the previous owner had used it with low or contaminated oil at some point and cause the damage then, masked until recently.

[Retroanaconda]

I find I’m bad at leaving it in and then wondering while the car is sluggish, then I suddenly realise it’s been in overdrive for ages. Can’t be good for it 

I sometimes wonder if a switch could be added to put a dashboard light on when engaged.

[Snagger]

18 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

I find I’m bad at leaving it in and then wondering while the car is sluggish, then I suddenly realise it’s been in overdrive for ages. Can’t be good for it 

I sometimes wonder if a switch could be added to put a dashboard light on when engaged.

That would be a simple job.  The hardest bits would be fabricating a mounting bracket for the switch and running the wires behind the dash if you want an neat installation.  You could either have a switch mounted behind the unit that is pressed when the selector shaft is moved aft by engaging the unit, or have a plunger switch engage in a notch made in the lever extension rod to the selector shaft.

[Peaklander]

I am going to measure the quantity of oil I drained as I still have it kept separate.

If I find that there was insufficient then I will never forgive myself. I know that the TBox and OD haven't been leaking and low oil can only be the result of careless filling. There is a particular method to follow and you need to allow for the extended sump but I should not have got it wrong.

I can't see what else could have gone wrong. Ray in his latest email says again that the oil has overheated so something went wrong either quickly, in my ownership, or slowly as a result of something in its previous life. Either way, I am finding the whole thing a little sad.

Global Roamer are putting together a list of required parts and again said that the unit is very very difficult to open-up. I totally agree!

[Maverik]

49 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

I am going to measure the quantity of oil I drained as I still have it kept separate.

If I find that there was insufficient then I will never forgive myself. I know that the TBox and OD haven't been leaking and low oil can only be the result of careless filling. There is a particular method to follow and you need to allow for the extended sump but I should not have got it wrong.

I can't see what else could have gone wrong. Ray in his latest email says again that the oil has overheated so something went wrong either quickly, in my ownership, or slowly as a result of something in its previous life. Either way, I am finding the whole thing a little sad.

Global Roamer are putting together a list of required parts and again said that the unit is very very difficult to open-up. I totally agree!

I went down your route - bought a 2nd hand drive, although mine was much earlier longer cased version, I never did get it running correctly, failed bearings, ultimately I couldn't get rid of the odd gear noise when it was engaged. 

A superbly designed bit of kit and having dealt with Ray too, a great guy and super helpful.

Alas if I ever venture that way again I think I'll be just installing a 1.3 transfer case instead, less to go wrong.

[Peaklander]

2 hours ago, Maverik said:

A superbly designed bit of kit and having dealt with Ray too, a great guy and super helpful.

He's very nice and last night told me just how, erm, 'senior' he is. Wow.

They have made something in the 000s of these. I can see that this failure could be my fault. I'm prepping the transfer box at the moment, to get it to Ashcrofts, so not yet measured the oil...

[Snagger]

21 hours ago, Peaklander said:

He's very nice and last night told me just how, erm, 'senior' he is. Wow.

They have made something in the 000s of these. I can see that this failure could be my fault. I'm prepping the transfer box at the moment, to get it to Ashcrofts, so not yet measured the oil...

Unfortunately, they seem to have picked up a reputation for bearing and gear issues.  Mark Saville of LRO had rebuilt his three times in 15000 miles for successive failures and Mike commented on seeing several failures on his BritRest videos.  Maybe, if they had used better quality bearings, a lot of the failures would not have occurred.  Mine probably would, but that was because I didn’t do a good enough job of sealing the transfer box front gasket at one point, not because of an inherent issue in the overdrive.  Still, they don’t tolerate oil issues well, and good bearings might reduce the frequency or severity of damage from marginal oil issues.  
 

In a related side note, Ray recommends 75W oil for the unit.  Now, this is probably mostly because EP90 is hard to find outside the UK (and not available in many motoring shops and garages in the UK either) and could also be because of the cold winters in Canada which would make EP90 set like tar, but perhaps the 75W would get into the smaller bearing in the planet gears more easily than EP90.  I did use synthetic 75W for a while on the whole transmission, but didn’t like the increased noise (do remember this is a SIII).  Maybe running the transfer box and overdrive on synthetic and keeping EP90 for the LT76 would work better, and for you using ATF D3 and 75W.  I’m pretty sure that LR specified 75W on late Defenders for the axles and LT230, and I’m not aware of any significant changes to those units that would give a reason, so it should be backwards compatible.  Some of the guys on here have encyclopaedic knowledge on oils, so I’d be interested in their view.

[cackshifter]

Hi, well a quick browse of Smith & Allan shows EP90 has viscosity of 175Cs at 40deg, 16.5Cs at 100 deg.  On the other hand their fully synth 75W/90 has a viscosity of 103 at 40 deg and 15.7 at 100deg. I am no tribologist, but the viscosity at 100 deg is about the same (hence the 90) but at 40 deg much higher for both and quite different(hence the  75W) This suggests to me that the 75w/90 may be able to replace the straight 90, the viscosity being very close when it gets warm, and the drop in viscosity on warming dwarfing the difference in cold viscosity(ie the thing being lubricated must be able to survive much lower viscosity than the cold figures)

It is possible that there may be better oils about for this, @PeaklanderI'd try giving Millers Oils or Morris Lubricants or Smith and Allan a call, and see what they can come up with. There may be better options, eg a 80W/140 perhaps (Morris's has  viscosity of 240CS at 40 deg, 30.5 at 100 deg.) I think the worst case for this kit is cruising up a long gradient at speed with a load, eg on a motorway, certainly that is when my transfer box with no overdrive gets hottest, and it certainly does get hot, so maybe the 100deg viscosity is important.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

Ignore these if you've heard them but a few tips;

I ditched the Roamerdrive filler plug thingy and put a standard hydraulic sight plug in the LT230 so I could see the level - I tend to over-fill slightly, plus I've got the extended sump and added a heat shield on the exhaust as it passes quite close and radiates a hell of a lot of heat.

[Peaklander]

@cackshifter @Snagger, thanks. I have been using Comma SX75W-90 GL-4 semi-synthetic oil, for which the viscosity at 40 deg is 100 and at 100 deg is 15.5. The GL4 is required rather than GL5 due to the metals in the unit. It's easy to find this oil in the UK, even Halfords sell it at £9.99 per litre currently.

I have measured the drained oil and I can find a little over 3 litres and the instructions simply say that 3-4 litres is required. The fill method is TBox filled to the fill hole, then a further 3/4 litre in the OD itself. Then after a run the level is checked through a grubscrew in the OD. I didn't get this wrong and it was checked before our Scotland trip last summer.

[Peaklander]

11 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I ditched the Roamerdrive filler plug thingy and put a standard hydraulic sight plug in the LT230 so I could see the level

If I ever get it back together I will do this. It's a perfect TPM (Total Productive Maintenance) approach; making things easy to check.

Edit: my exhaust is a little further away.

[Snagger]

Being a turbo charged diesel, the exhaust isn’t going to be hot enough to matter - the turbo extracts a huge amount of the EGT.  John’s heat shield is a great addition for a big naturally aspirated engine, though, or supercharged.

Comma oils are OK if you change them regularly, but they are cheap for a reason.  I replace the transmission and axle oils on my 109 every 10,000 miles for that reason, as well as to remove any possible contaminants. There is quite a difference between the temperature limits for semi and fully synthetic.  You don’t need to worry about using GL4 - the early GL5s did corrode the bronze phosphor parts, but that was sorted out a long time ago.  Nothing wrong with sticking to GL4 if you can find the other specifications you need, though.

As long as you have a system which shows the actual level, regather than a poured volume, then you should be good.  Be it a level plug, dip stick or sight glass, all will achieve the same thing, just with more or less effort and mess.  The poured volume is just to get you to approximate levels before you check visually.

[Peaklander]

I took a few more photos and then bagged-up all the parts. I know how it goes back together, honest! Next is to wait for the advice on replacement parts from Global Roamer Corp.

Yesterday when I handed over my TBox, Richard Ashcroft suggested / asked that when it's re-fitted, I run the vehicle without the overdrive for a while. This will eliminate any noises that the OD might introduce to the transmission. I am sure that he will get the TBox back to me well before I rebuild the OD.

 

 

 

 

By the way, those planet gear needle roller bearings are weird. Each has a double stack with twenty rollers in each stack. I cant see any separating washers in the two that I have removed, so don't know how they stay apart. It's going to be a precision job to rebuild one of those, unless it comes from GRC ready built. The shafts are worn so there isn't anything serviceable really.

[Wytze]

I think i would like to see a thin washer between the two row's of needle's aswell.

[Snagger]

They should all rotate around the shaft at the same rate, so shouldn’t impinge on each other.  Maybe a separating ring or washer would prevent oil flow, so was not included?  I know in this instance it’d seem irrelevant, but I think and hope yours is atypical.

[Peaklander]

There should be something (17C) but there isn't. Maybe they are paste. Also can't find some of the washers.

[reb78]

It is interesting to follow this as a GKN OD user (I have put in excess of 120k ish miles on mine). Theres a lot gone wrong in there and these are thought of as robust units. Its interesting watching the diagnosis and fixes though. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by reb78