EV conversions

[Bowie69]

Agreed, I subscribed too, then they started talking about how being vegan was a good thing.

I like my steaks and V8s, and you aren't going to take them from me!

[monkie]

8 minutes ago, deep said:

Back to the topic at hand, lots of good points added here in the last day.  Electric can be great IF you can afford it; can charge it adequately at home (without some kids cutting the cable or stealing your power!); mostly drive shortish range; and are happy with where the power and components come from.  For a lot of us, we would need to own two cars; or carry a heavy, spare petrol/diesel motor around all the time like hybrids do.  

Charging on the road, though, is far too challenging.  My sister and her husband very recently bought a brand new Kia something electric car.  Last weekend, they undertook their first road trip.  It necessitated charging en route, of course.  At first, they were happy with coffee concept but, on the way home, the coffee shop closed before they had enough charge.  They moved on to another charging station, from where she posted a Fbook picture of the knitting she was doing while waiting to charge.  Once more and more people are lining up, there will be time to do a lot more knitting.  Because I can't knit, I would find that sort of forced wait VERY tedious.  It would be untenable for work because our deadlines are already nigh unreachable.

That has simply not been my experience at all over the past week doing motorway miles. You can even see what chargers are available before you arrive. I work to tight deadlines and have to be in places for appointments at specific times. I have not had any issue whatsoever in making any of my deadlines. 

... And this has all been with no home charger, so totally reliant on chargers out and about. Honestly, my experiences have shown me that there are so many myths and misperceptions out there. 

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

Okay, so I can report on today's experience doing a round trip of around 300 miles in the Tesla. 

I started the journey off on 97%, got to the office 145 miles later with 55% remaining. Plugged it in at the office for free while I worked. 

Got in the car at the end of the day to come home, car was 100% full. 

Drove it at motorway speeds and stopped at Gordano services South of Bristol with 64% on the battery. Plugged it in at the Tesla supercharger (3 spaces available, 3 cars left whilst I was there). 15 minutes (£10.17) later I had gone up to 95%. 

Got home with over 80% left. I am converted and will now swap my company car for a Tesla. 

Tesla are leagues ahead in the charge network and so at the moment relies far less on home charging. 

It amazes me that work isn’t further ahead with charging… a private government owned tech/science site of probably 1500 people with tenants and they’ve got I think only 6 charge spaces. Plus 3 reserved only for use by training school employees. For those with electric they’re often driving from charger to charger in the morning looking for a spot. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by landroversforever
My terrible grammar typo

[reb78]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

Okay, so I can report on today's experience doing a round trip of around 300 miles in the Tesla. 

I started the journey off on 97%, got to the office 145 miles later with 55% remaining. Plugged it in at the office for free while I worked. 

Got in the car at the end of the day to come home, car was 100% full. 

Drove it at motorway speeds and stopped at Gordano services South of Bristol with 64% on the battery. Plugged it in at the Tesla supercharger (3 spaces available, 3 cars left whilst I was there). 15 minutes (£10.17) later I had gone up to 95%. 

Got home with over 80% left. I am converted and will now swap my company car for a Tesla. 

This is quite impressive to be fair. Still not sure it could work for me. 
 

Is Tesla the only choice to make this work in reality? What are the purchase prices like? I'd have to be able to buy the car so i reckon its a long way out of reach!

[reb78]

44 minutes ago, deep said:

I assume you are just being impolite about Apple?

 

Yep. 

[monkie]

3 minutes ago, reb78 said:

This is quite impressive to be fair. Still not sure it could work for me. 
 

Is Tesla the only choice to make this work in reality? What are the purchase prices like? I'd have to be able to buy the car so i reckon its a long way out of reach!

No. I have colleagues who have Hyundai's, Kia's, Volvo's and Audi's. All of whom do a lot of daily miles with no issues at all. For company car owners the tax benefits are massive. You can also lease an EV as a salary sacrifice with zero BIK tax. So this neutralises the cost argument if you use the car for your job. 

[landroversforever]

7 minutes ago, monkie said:

No. I have colleagues who have Hyundai's, Kia's, Volvo's and Audi's. All of whom do a lot of daily miles with no issues at all. For company car owners the tax benefits are massive. You can also lease an EV as a salary sacrifice with zero BIK tax. So this neutralises the cost argument if you use the car for your job. 

Do they all have home charging?

[monkie]

2 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Do they all have home charging?

I think so. Also one of them (the Volvo owner) is Swedish, so I also appreciate that we must be careful comparing experiences in different countries as there will be differences. 

That said, they all do several hundred miles a day and will often have to stay over in hotels, some of which have EV charging facilities and some don't. All have said they will never go back to petrol, diesel or even hybrid. 

[geoffbeaumont]

55 minutes ago, deep said:

I assume you are just being impolite about Apple?  Remember, they were using lightning on their phones before other phones were using USB-C.  If you want to force anybody to change, it shouldn't be the people who have standardised for the longer time!  It's a very nasty attitude and promulgated by people with vested interests.

Except that lighting is owned by Apple and no-one else can use it, whereas USB are standardised connectors explicitly intended to ensure interoperability. Apple's switch to lightning was a deliberate move away from standardisation (albeit the variety of older mini/micro USB standards made a bit of a mess) to a proprietary connector.

[sean f]

So far as far as I can see EV is good for more affluent people (purchase price is still beyond large parts of the population) who will often have off road parking and the ability to charge from home. For it to roll down further more on street charging is still needed or a lot more public spaces charging points (these do seem to be appearing).

I run a 90, a Silverado and a civic as a run around and if the purchase prices were comparable for a civic sized vehicle I would seriously consider one for a run around, generally shorter trips so a reduced capacity battery would probable work, but at the moment the difference in price buys more fuel than I am likely to use in many years so it just not viable.

In the village I live (very old but with significant building in the 60's) less than half the houses have off street parking, on street parking is very much at a premium is some areas so mostly people can't park out side there houses, also I know the power supply is already stressed, I had to contact Western Power to upgrade from an 80 to a 100amp house supply for the lathe and was told I was lucky to get it as my local transformer still had some capacity left, most didn't and the area supply was also close to limit, I have know idea how they make there calculations but I expect they assume people only use a certain percentage of there capacity at any one time with some surge capacity (the infamous FA cup half time kettle surge). Wholesale charging, probable all at a similar time is probable going to melt things, the power supply can be fixed but it will take time and money.

Seems to be several stories about at the moment that the cost of charging could soon approach the cost of filling with petrol, I am assuming this is probable exaggerated to some extend and is probably also using the cost to charge from a premium rate charger rather than home. For those of you that actually use EV's just how much is this exaggerated?.

[Retroanaconda]

If you don’t have an EV tarrif or rely on public chargers then it won’t be long. I did some maths last week to look at the cost of an EV van compared to a diesel, at 70p/kWh (one forecast for next spring) it costs the same to run as a diesel doing 50mpg.

As soon as the primary cost saving goes or reduced many people will not want to switch. Add in the huge additional purchase cost and it’s a hard sell.

For me it simply comes down to a reduction in usability. My current car is a 4x4, it can tow 3.5 tonnes, will do 600 miles on a tank, and can be refilled in five minutes. When an EV can match that I will happily buy one but until then - why would I accept a reduction in usefulness?

[monkie]

2 hours ago, sean f said:

.

Seems to be several stories about at the moment that the cost of charging could soon approach the cost of filling with petrol, I am assuming this is probable exaggerated to some extend and is probably also using the cost to charge from a premium rate charger rather than home. For those of you that actually use EV's just how much is this exaggerated?.

I've done some maths based on prices you can expect to pay right now. Assume you have a diesel car and pay £1.80 a litre for diesel and can achieve 45 miles a gallon. You will be paying about 18p a mile. (similar figure for a petrol car paying less per gallon but not achieving 45 mpg). 

An EV if you pay 60p a KWh at an expensive public charger and achieve 4 miles per KWh will cost you 15p a mile. But I think on balance you will be using a mix of home charging, free charging and expensive charging. Let's say is balances out at 30p a KWh, then it will cost you on average 7.5p a mile. 

Based on those figures, a 300 mile journey will cost you £54 in a petrol car or £22.50 in an EV. 

Obviously costs of electricity and petrol will be changing all the time. 

[monkie]

16 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

For me it simply comes down to a reduction in usability. My current car is a 4x4, it can tow 3.5 tonnes, will do 600 miles on a tank, and can be refilled in five minutes. When an EV can match that I will happily buy one but until then - why would I accept a reduction in usefulness?

I agree, but it is horses for courses. In reality, not many people tow 3.5 tonnes on a regular basis. Paying 70p a KWh is like filling up with premium diesel at a motorway service station. You do it if you have to, but not on a regular basis. Not having a home charger is absolutely not the barrier people seem to assume it is. 

I wouldn't be buying an EV (or any new car come to that) with my own money. 

I'm a company car driver for work. The days of driving round in a diesel car are going fast. The BIK tax and the fact that most companies now (like it or not) have to have sustainability policies to bid for public tenders mean it just makes sense to move quickly away from petrol and diesel. With a huge tax reduction and cheaper personal miles an EV is a no brainer. 

If you do personal leases, then it too makes sense to seriously look into getting an EV. 

If you buy secondhand cars more than 3 years old, then yes sticking with petrol or diesel is what you'll have to do. 

[Snagger]

It is interesting reading the differing views and experiences.  Individual circumstances are key.

what seems clear is that IF you can afford the initially higher purchase price (which is closing with ICE prices all the time) and IF you have the possibility of home charging, then for general use they seem to be a clear winner.  As, has been said, you need to tow long ranges, then it is problematic for now.

Clearly, the ability afford the cars and a property that allows home charging favours the more affluent., but the investment will recoup the higher cost of the car after a while with cheaper running costs.  That is compounded further if the owner is affluent enough to afford a large enough solar array to charge the vehicle off-grid.  I can understand some people being irked by that apparent exclusivity to the advantages of EVs, but the early adopters (rich) always pay a premium until economies of scale allow wider uptake at more reasonable prices, so there is some long term equity in a way.

[monkie]

^^^agree. Just to add (keeping in mind we are on a 4x4 forum)... 

To put this in perspective, a new Defender, Range Rover, Discovery are well beyond most people's means too. As they age they trickle down to the second hand market, a lot of us on here (I have a 1989 110) own older Land Rovers. 

As company car drivers like me ditch ICE and hybrids for EVs, in a few years time they will end up in the second hand market ever more trickling down to those who can't afford the new prices displacing ICE. 

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

Not having a home charger is absolutely not the barrier people seem to assume it is.

That's where it depends on the use and access to other charging. I can't charge at home, I can't charge at work (realistically they're not going to magically install chargers in every space) and I haven't got the time to be parked up at a public one every day. An old colleague with an i3 used to charge overnight, but would still then have to do a top up charge every day which meant getting up earlier to sit in Waitrose cafe for 25mins. 

[monkie]

31 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

That's where it depends on the use and access to other charging. I can't charge at home, I can't charge at work (realistically they're not going to magically install chargers in every space) and I haven't got the time to be parked up at a public one every day. An old colleague with an i3 used to charge overnight, but would still then have to do a top up charge every day which meant getting up earlier to sit in Waitrose cafe for 25mins. 

Yes, but this situation is rapidly changing. Both in terms of range available and the number of chargers being installed. I live rurally and I have not had an issue. I would have agreed with this point before I tried driving an EV. 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, monkie said:

To put this in perspective, a new Defender, Range Rover, Discovery are well beyond most people's means too. As they age they trickle down to the second hand market, a lot of us on here (I have a 1989 110) own older Land Rovers. 

That's pretty much it for most people - the average car on the roads is about 10 years old so that's a long tail for things to trickle down even as EV sales are going through the roof it will be 5-10 years before most of us find ourselves potentially owning one. Grumbling about the purchase price if you were never going to buy a brand new ICE vehicle either is daft.

[L19MUD]

The comments on here are interesting and goes to show how things differ greatly depending on if it is a company car and you get taxed heavily on it or if you are paying with your own money. I did see a post on a mechanics group on Facebook earlier this week discussing the highest number of miles seen on an electric car. There were reports of a few Tesla's with 180-230k and a Nissan leaf with 150k! I wouldn't want to drive a Nissan leaf 15 miles  so thought that was pretty keen 🙂

For me to pay my own money for an electric car the technology needs to be a bit more proven re how the batteries age  and how the resale holds up and as mentioned above it will take a while for all that to filter down over the next few years

Up till now I felt the electric cars on sale were all trying too hard to look like something funky/out there instead of being an electric version with similar styling to the rest of that brands vehicles. This is beginning to change dramatically though with the new electric BMW's being much closer to the styling of the rest of the range for example

What I also think will be interesting is how well Tesla manage to continue to compete with the likes of BMW/Audi/Porsche now that they are all up and running. My wife's company runs a few Tesla's including a couple of the top spec models and the quality of the interior is miles off an Audi E-tron GT or the Porsche Taycan alongside a practically non existent dealer network which has caused them quite a bit of hassle.

I am happy to stay with the diesels for now and have just bought a diesel Panamera. 420bhp/850MN, 40plus mpg on a run and up to an 800 mile range on a tank. It should make the trip to the south of France next week a relaxed enjoyable experience

 

 

 

 

[Snagger]

18 hours ago, Snagger said:

… There are many other channels out there with more accurate and balanced information. Will Ferrel has one, Joe Scott another, Two Bit Davinci is pretty good and there are many more.

My mistake; Matt Ferrell.  (“Undecided with Matt Ferrell” is the channel name, and it tries to be balanced).

[FridgeFreezer]

39 minutes ago, Snagger said:

My mistake; Matt Ferrell.  (“Undecided with Matt Ferrell” is the channel name, and it tries to be balanced).

I did wonder what Will Ferrel was contributing to popular science

The chap doing "Just Have A Think" is the British clone of Matt Ferrell and is not bad either, although both often fall into the trap of just reading out press releases about some revolutionary new battery or vehicle or energy storage project that is little more than a lab experiment and a venture capital bid.

[Snagger]

JHAT is very similar, though I find a little more politics creeps into his videos than Matt’s, but maybe that is just because of being a Brit like JHAT while Matt being a Yank means some small references slip by me.

[monkie]

3 hours ago, L19MUD said:

the rest of the range for example

What I also think will be interesting is how well Tesla manage to continue to compete with the likes of BMW/Audi/Porsche now that they are all up and running. My wife's company runs a few Tesla's including a couple of the top spec models and the quality of the interior is miles off an Audi E-tron GT or the Porsche Taycan alongside a practically non existent dealer network which has caused them quite a bit of hassle.

That is an interesting observation. One of my colleagues who has driven ICE Audis for a few years tested out a Q4 E-tron and said it was very basic and bland compared to the ICE equivalent. He opted for a spec-ed out Kia EV6 instead. 

Also, I guess people's view will differ. Do you want your EV to be familiar and built on what you know and trust from driving an ICE equivalent, or do you think that a car purpose designed as an EV with no ICE equivalent or evolutionary hang overs is the way for you? Personally I'm in the latter category, but it's subjective. 

I have have heard and seen some build quality issues with Tesla. I thought the model 3 I have got on loan has no quality issues, except for the damn drivers side floor mat keeps flapping about on the foot rest which is annoying... 

 

 

[L19MUD]

2 minutes ago, monkie said:

That is an interesting observation. One of my colleagues who has driven ICE Audis for a few years tested out a Q4 E-tron and said it was very basic and bland compared to the ICE equivalent. He opted for a spec-ed out Kia EV6 instead. 

Also, I guess people's view will differ. Do you want your EV to be familiar and built on what you know and trust from driving an ICE equivalent, or do you think that a car purpose designed as an EV with no ICE equivalent or evolutionary hang overs is the way for you? Personally I'm in the latter category, but it's subjective. 

I have have heard and seen some build quality issues with Tesla. I thought the model 3 I have got on loan has no quality issues, except for the damn drivers side floor mat keeps flapping about on the foot rest which is annoying... 

 

 

I have only had a look at the Etron GT which is the one that is the sister car to the Taycan and a lot more expensive than the rest of the range admittedly.

I probably was not being that clear - I am in the latter category too. The cars designed ground up as electric are going to be a much better comparative package than a redesigned ICE car. What I don't like is the futuristic styling nonsense for the sake of it, think back to the BMW i3 for example!

It is less the build quality but more the quality and design of the materials used. The fit, finish and material quality of say a BMW 5 series is leagues ahead of a Tesla. I also hate garish Tesla tablet thing that controls everything but that is more a personal taste thing I guess. In case people have never seen one a Model S (I know a new model is out soon) currently looks like this and starts at £80k

A BMW 5 Series around the 55k mark looks like this

[monkie]

The whole flat screen thing in the Tesla model 3 was really alien to me at first and I didn't like it. However I very quickly got used to it and have come to like the uncluttered interior. 

Here's a pic of the dash of the model 3 I'm using at the minute. Not everyone's cup of tea, but then again most car interiors are an acquired taste.