EV conversions

[Snagger]

Swapping out batteries at serviette stations for rapid turnarounds is never going to happen.  Tesla tried it, but not only is it risky with the potential for damage to the connectors and ensuing fires, it is also hugely impractical - it’d need big stations with the automated removal/refitting systems, storage and charging facilities, and production of around twice as many battery packs than otherwise needed, which simply can’t be done with the current limitations on materials and production unless they halve the number of cars sold.  That is before you even start contemplating common batteries and their structural, integrated nature on the latest generations of vehicles.

 

Charging times are reducing all the time.  Sooner or later, they will make batteries that can be charged nearly as fast as refilling a tank, but if they can get enough chargers at service stations, what is wrong with the current 30 minutes for super charges?  That give a chance for the driver to have a break too.

[cackshifter]

As you say, ...if they can get enough chargers...maybe you'll know your car is charged while having your brew as the lights go bright.

If you think how many cars fill with fuel at a motorway over 30 minutes you have some idea of the number of chargers needed. Then work out the electrical load of all those chargers. I just don't see there is enough generation or grid capacity now or in  even the medium term without some serious investment, and I think that will hold things back.

[Ed Poore]

I suppose another aspect is when you empty all the reserves in order to get going quite often modern ones can't be towed (may have changed) and you need to get it to a charger rather than just bunging in a couple of litres from whatever container a petrol station has to hand.

I reckon half the breakdowns I've seen in the last two years have been people running out of fuel. Perhaps the kind of person but one would assume the mentality will transition to EVs as well and running out of charge.

[monkie]

As I say, these charging concerns are a misnomer. Most people will be starting off with a full charge from being plugged in at home and can then charge at their destination such as the office (it may even cost you nothing). For longer trips, you need to forget the concept of a "full tank". If you stop for a toilet break, you plug in. By the time you have walked through the main hall at the services to the toilet, got a coffee and walked back to your car you will have added quite a bit of power to your battery to continue your journey. The batteries charge quite quickly to 80% if around 20% full when you plug in. 

If you are skeptical (as I was), try one (if possible). You'll be surprised. 

Concerns about the infrastructure are someone else's worry. New chragers are popping up all the time all over the place. As the government are trying to move us off ICE to EV by 2030, they are the ones to worry about if the grid can cope. 

[miketomcat]

I'm sure one of the adults will correct me but I always thought/was told part charging was bad for battery's. If this is the case surely a 10min charge is going to do more bad than good.

Also in order to have the ability to do a quick charge whilst going for a pee they are going to need wireless charging in every parking space, which to be honest is I think the only long term solution. 

Mike

[Ed Poore]

3 hours ago, monkie said:

If you are skeptical (as I was), try one (if possible). You'll be surprised. 

I would if there's one that will tow a couple of tonnes for a few hundred miles in a reasonable time and carry on towing off-road in places like this.

edited to add:

I could probably use an EV for about 50% of the stuff I do (to be honest it would suit it since quite often I have to go out of my way to fill up) but at least 50% of my journeys are towing at least a tonne and a half these days on steep Welsh country lanes. There's only one road out from my place (there's four cross roads within 2 miles so not like I don't have a choice of routes) that's less than a 1 in 3 and that heads nowhere particularly useful before it becomes a 1 in 3 anyway.

[landroversforever]

58 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

I'm sure one of the adults will correct me but I always thought/was told part charging was bad for battery's. If this is the case surely a 10min charge is going to do more bad than good.

Also in order to have the ability to do a quick charge whilst going for a pee they are going to need wireless charging in every parking space, which to be honest is I think the only long term solution. 

Mike

I don't think that's an issue any more with current generation batteries. Certainly not noticed any problems with any of my phone batteries in the last 15+ years.

 

2 hours ago, monkie said:

As I say, these charging concerns are a misnomer. Most people will be starting off with a full charge from being plugged in at home and can then charge at their destination such as the office (it may even cost you nothing). For longer trips, you need to forget the concept of a "full tank". If you stop for a toilet break, you plug in. By the time you have walked through the main hall at the services to the toilet, got a coffee and walked back to your car you will have added quite a bit of power to your battery to continue your journey. The batteries charge quite quickly to 80% if around 20% full when you plug in. 

If you are skeptical (as I was), try one (if possible). You'll be surprised. 

Concerns about the infrastructure are someone else's worry. New chragers are popping up all the time all over the place. As the government are trying to move us off ICE to EV by 2030, they are the ones to worry about if the grid can cope. 

I think the infrastructure issues are for everyone to worry about. Gordano services on sunday morning there was a queue for the non Tesla chargers, and on top of that 2 weren't working. I can very easily see EVs working for a lot of people, but there are still so many people that won't be setting off with a full charge. Again, our parking is not right next to the house and we've got no power at the parking spaces. Same for many others on the same estate and there are other more modern estates which are even worse. I reckon maybe 1/3 of the village at the most have their own parking space by their house and would be able to plug in to their own personal charger. So until public on-street charging is commonplace it's going to be a slow road to EV.

The motorway top up model also doesn't work unless you can get straight on a charger when you stop for a slash. I don't want to be waiting around for 30mins for someone else to be done charging to then spend another 20-30mins on charge. Just 30mins is adding another 25% to my regular oxfordshire-somerset run.

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, miketomcat said:

I'm sure one of the adults will correct me but I always thought/was told part charging was bad for battery's. If this is the case surely a 10min charge is going to do more bad than good.

Not true for most lithium based technologies. To be fair the "battery packs" have the electronics to protect themselves and know the characteristics required so they tend to take care of themselves. The problem comes when people DIY the charging solution without fully understanding the intricacies.

[elbekko]

I think with the current state of things, PHEVs are and will be the answer for a few years to come.

EV driving for 90% of daily journeys, and no problem doing long-range and/or towing with quick refuelling with the ICE.

Someone really should bring out an affordable hybrid setup for Land Rovers by bolting onto the PTO - how hard could it be?

[FridgeFreezer]

The charging stations can have batteries too, which knocks the peaks off the draw from the grid. There's a few storage battery technologies coming down the line that are not portable at all (big / heavy / high-temperature / molten metal) but could be used for cheap storage in fixed locations, a bit like petrol stations use a big underground tank rather than a very long pipe from the refinery

That way petrol stations could be recharging big cheap batteries overnight when electric is cheap and selling it during the day without melting the grid - which would be great news for the electric companies too as they would be smoothing demand out massively, and potentially they'd even make money by selling back to the grid during big peaks as some outfits with large generators do already.

[cackshifter]

If the country seriously wants to get off gas as a fuel it needs to pause or slow down the push to EVs. It's too much to do at all once. It's too much investment, too much demand on the grid and generation capacity. EVs work well for some folk, but not yet everyone. And we don't see many electric trucks. Hydrogen is currently a joke - it's quite dangerous and has to be produced from either cracking methane (gas again) or electrolysis (generation again) . We will still need gas as a chemical feedstock, so using it for heating etc is best avoided now. According to Gridwatch just now gas is still currently (no pun intended) producing 46% of electricity. It is normally around half, maybe a bit less. Wind is doing well today but still less than 20%. It seems pointless to me to push towards increasing the use of electricity by EVs when we just don't have the capacity to supply them, and we are trying to get off gas heating as well.

[Nonimouse]

22 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The charging stations can have batteries too, which knocks the peaks off the draw from the grid. There's a few storage battery technologies coming down the line that are not portable at all (big / heavy / high-temperature / molten metal) but could be used for cheap storage in fixed locations, a bit like petrol stations use a big underground tank rather than a very long pipe from the refinery

That way petrol stations could be recharging big cheap batteries overnight when electric is cheap and selling it during the day without melting the grid - which would be great news for the electric companies too as they would be smoothing demand out massively, and potentially they'd even make money by selling back to the grid during big peaks as some outfits with large generators do already.

With most service stations and services having to fit secon, or even third transformers, simply to run charging points, adding batteries to the mix will make it even more difficult to undertake logistically and financially.

It's not just rural supplies that can't cope. The H line - the 175Kva run that runs parallel with the M5 from Exeter to Bridgwater is at peak input and supply. The new funky supply from Hinkley to Bristol (and it's spur to Gravity) is already way behind in design terms. The reason we are seeing so many localised biomass powered generation plants, being built on a local scale, is to supply an already overstreched grid - and that's before we take into account the EV needs.

The best option is the Hybrid. It works. Global pollustion is not about cars - it's about poorly designed, poorly serviced cars and a lot more, much bigger issues. Dependance on fossile fules is here for a damn site longer than 2030 in all practical terms

[Daan]

3 hours ago, miketomcat said:

I'm sure one of the adults will correct me but I always thought/was told part charging was bad for battery's. If this is the case surely a 10min charge is going to do more bad than good.

Also in order to have the ability to do a quick charge whilst going for a pee they are going to need wireless charging in every parking space, which to be honest is I think the only long term solution. 

Mike

The fast charge is still a problem, and is where most of the development is at the moment. The cooling system is key while charging, to avoid the batteries getting hot. This is obviously not easy while the car is stationary.

I think the whole fast charge on a motorway problem largely goes away once we have a range of 500 miles or more; You just charge it overnight at home and can go almost anywhere on a single charge.

Only if you go on holiday you might go further, but in general use, it is plenty for most people.

[reb78]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

The motorway top up model also doesn't work unless you can get straight on a charger when you stop for a slash. I don't want to be waiting around for 30mins for someone else to be done charging to then spend another 20-30mins on charge. Just 30mins is adding another 25% to my regular oxfordshire-somerset run.

Same for me. To be honest, I haven't been in a motorway services since before COVID and dont intend to start again - they are filthy places.... Unless my bladder significantly weakens, I want to continue to do 4.5 hours in one go - its long enough without extending it (and 30 mins in the minimum I guess if there is a queue)

[reb78]

13 hours ago, Snagger said:

Swapping out batteries at serviette stations for rapid turnarounds is never going to happen.  Tesla tried it, but not only is it risky with the potential for damage to the connectors and ensuing fires, it is also hugely impractical - it’d need big stations with the automated removal/refitting systems, storage and charging facilities, and production of around twice as many battery packs than otherwise needed, which simply can’t be done with the current limitations on materials and production unless they halve the number of cars sold.  That is before you even start contemplating common batteries and their structural, integrated nature on the latest generations of vehicles.

 

Swapping batteries will never happen... lets face it the world cant even get crapple to use the same charging port as everyone else!

[cackshifter]

7 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Swapping batteries will never happen... lets face it the world cant even get crapple to use the same charging port as everyone else!

You'd think we'd have learned from phones... but no

[landroversforever]

30 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Swapping batteries will never happen... lets face it the world cant even get crapple to use the same charging port as everyone else!

I think the differing charging ports is down to the different charging power/voltages.

[cackshifter]

1 hour ago, Daan said:

The fast charge is still a problem, and is where most of the development is at the moment. The cooling system is key while charging, to avoid the batteries getting hot. This is obviously not easy while the car is stationary.

I think the whole fast charge on a motorway problem largely goes away once we have a range of 500 miles or more; You just charge it overnight at home and can go almost anywhere on a single charge.

Only if you go on holiday you might go further, but in general use, it is plenty for most people.

That's a nice idea. But (ignoring the battery dev for a moment) say you need 180Kwh to do 500 miles.... And you want to charge in say 12 hours - the best you can get from a home charger is 7.5Kw on a single phase supply. So the most you can charge is 90Kwh in 12 hours. So... to do better you need 3 phase,  which is of course technically very possible, but putting it into all homes... look how long it's taken to get smart meters rolled out.

[jeremy996]

Can I direct some of you to the Fully Charged channel on YouTube - fronted by Robert Lewellyn and covering cars, e-bikes, electric motorcycles, home heating, insulation and similar technologies. https://www.youtube.com/c/fullychargedshow/featured

There you will see a Chinese car company that has an automated battery swap station, recharging service stations with large scale battery storage and electric cars, vans and bikes from cheap to outrageous. 

 

 

[Nonimouse]

2 hours ago, reb78 said:

Same for me. To be honest, I haven't been in a motorway services since before COVID and dont intend to start again - they are filthy places.... Unless my bladder significantly weakens, I want to continue to do 4.5 hours in one go - its long enough without extending it (and 30 mins in the minimum I guess if there is a queue)

They are part of my job. Filthy isn't half of it

[Snagger]

6 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Can I direct some of you to the Fully Charged channel on YouTube - fronted by Robert Lewellyn and covering cars, e-bikes, electric motorcycles, home heating, insulation and similar technologies. https://www.youtube.com/c/fullychargedshow/featured

There you will see a Chinese car company that has an automated battery swap station, recharging service stations with large scale battery storage and electric cars, vans and bikes from cheap to outrageous. 

 

 

It’s one thing to make a demonstrator or prototype, quite another to achieve mass production and get it operating for untrained public users.  Like I said, Tesla tried it early on and found it utterly impractical and uneconomical.  The need for so many spare batteries, while batteries are the primarily limitation on EV production numbers, is going to prohibit it.

I used to be a subscriber to that channel, and that is where I picked up a lot of what little I learned about EVs, solar and so on, but there is a lot of BS on their show.  I saw too much stretching of the truth and downright lies on it to continue to watch him or his sanctimonious cohorts.  There are many other channels out there with more accurate and balanced information. Will Ferrel has one, Joe Scott another, Two Bit Davinci is pretty good and there are many more.

[monkie]

Okay, so I can report on today's experience doing a round trip of around 300 miles in the Tesla. 

I started the journey off on 97%, got to the office 145 miles later with 55% remaining. Plugged it in at the office for free while I worked. 

Got in the car at the end of the day to come home, car was 100% full. 

Drove it at motorway speeds and stopped at Gordano services South of Bristol with 64% on the battery. Plugged it in at the Tesla supercharger (3 spaces available, 3 cars left whilst I was there). 15 minutes (£10.17) later I had gone up to 95%. 

Got home with over 80% left. I am converted and will now swap my company car for a Tesla. 

[deep]

10 hours ago, reb78 said:

Swapping batteries will never happen... lets face it the world cant even get crapple to use the same charging port as everyone else!

I assume you are just being impolite about Apple?  Remember, they were using lightning on their phones before other phones were using USB-C.  If you want to force anybody to change, it shouldn't be the people who have standardised for the longer time!  It's a very nasty attitude and promulgated by people with vested interests.  Actually, the only USB-C anything I own is the unusable charging cable that came with my phone.  Unusable because it needs a USB-C charger that didn't come with the phone...

 

[FridgeFreezer]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I used to be a subscriber to that channel, and that is where I picked up a lot of what little I learned about EVs, solar and so on, but there is a lot of BS on their show.  I saw too much stretching of the truth and downright lies on it to continue to watch him or his sanctimonious cohorts.

Same here - I thought Rob would be a good and reasonably technical (hence honest / straight) presenter but he's gotten more and more off into the weeds of BS / propaganda, and being an intelligent chap he must know he's spouting BS which makes it worse.

[deep]

Back to the topic at hand, lots of good points added here in the last day.  Electric can be great IF you can afford it; can charge it adequately at home (without some kids cutting the cable or stealing your power!); mostly drive shortish range; and are happy with where the power and components come from.  For a lot of us, we would need to own two cars; or carry a heavy, spare petrol/diesel motor around all the time like hybrids do.  

Charging on the road, though, is far too challenging.  My sister and her husband very recently bought a brand new Kia something electric car.  Last weekend, they undertook their first road trip.  It necessitated charging en route, of course.  At first, they were happy with coffee concept but, on the way home, the coffee shop closed before they had enough charge.  They moved on to another charging station, from where she posted a Fbook picture of the knitting she was doing while waiting to charge.  Once more and more people are lining up, there will be time to do a lot more knitting.  Because I can't knit, I would find that sort of forced wait VERY tedious.  It would be untenable for work because our deadlines are already nigh unreachable.