EV conversions

[L19MUD]

26 minutes ago, monkie said:

The whole flat screen thing in the Tesla model 3 was really alien to me at first and I didn't like it. However I very quickly got used to it and have come to like the uncluttered interior. 

Here's a pic of the dash of the model 3 I'm using at the minute. Not everyone's cup of tea, but then again most car interiors are an acquired taste. 

 

Where is the speedo? Or is it a heads up display?

 

You do soon get used to different cars though I agree

[reb78]

18 hours ago, monkie said:

No. I have colleagues who have Hyundai's, Kia's, Volvo's and Audi's. All of whom do a lot of daily miles with no issues at all. For company car owners the tax benefits are massive. You can also lease an EV as a salary sacrifice with zero BIK tax. So this neutralises the cost argument if you use the car for your job. 

I own all my vehicles outright no leases/company car etc. Just cant fathom why so many use the lease system. It does mean i own older cars though which I think excludes me from EV ownership for some time to come. Apart from a BMW once upon a time that ended its days in a spin on the M4 one night, i spend 7-8k a time and run them until they are worthless. The l322 might be the exception as i haven't fallen that much in love with it and should have spent the money on a digger so that might leave my ownership quicker than most cars but hey ho. 
 

 

[monkie]

42 minutes ago, L19MUD said:

Where is the speedo? Or is it a heads up display?

 

You do soon get used to different cars though I agree

Here's a pic

[monkie]

16 minutes ago, reb78 said:

own all my vehicles outright no leases/company car etc. Just cant fathom why so many use the lease system

 Because if you opt out of a company car scheme your company will give you the cash equivalent each month provided your car meets certain criteria such as must be less than 5 years old to qualify (a lease is an easy way to get a new/nearly new car).

They add the cash equivalent to your monthly salary so it will be taxed at what ever % income tax your salary is taxed at. So you can enter a salary sacrifice scheme where you sacrifice the monthly value of a lease and don't pay the income tax. You will have to pay a BIK tax of you go for an ICE car. 

So if you get £700 a month allowance, you would be taxed at say 40% meaning you would only actually get £480 a month after tax. Instead if you lease an EV for £700 a month and sacrifice the £700 allowance you will not pay any tax on the £700.... I think (don't take your tax advice from me, consult a professional!) 

[reb78]

2 minutes ago, monkie said:

 Because if you opt out of a company car scheme your company will give you the cash equivalent each month provided your car meets certain criteria such as must be less than 5 years old to qualify (a lease is an easy way to get a new/nearly new car).

They add the cash equivalent to your monthly salary so it will be taxed at what ever % income tax your salary is taxed at. So you can enter a salary sacrifice scheme where you sacrifice the monthly value of a lease and don't pay the income tax. You will have to pay a BIK tax of you go for an ICE car. 

So if you get £700 a month allowance, you would be taxed at say 40% meaning you would only actually get £480 a month after tax. Instead if you lease an EV for £700 a month and sacrifice the £700 allowance you will not pay any tax on the £700.... I think (don't take your tax advice from me, consult a professional!) 

I dont have any of that as an option. We don't have a company car scheme. 

[L19MUD]

21 minutes ago, monkie said:

Here's a pic

Being to the side and not in front of me would drive me insane. Hard enough to keep to the speed limit as it is

[monkie]

Just now, L19MUD said:

Being to the side and not in front of me would drive me insane. Hard enough to keep to the speed limit as it is

I thought that, but in reality it's no different to glancing down. It is just a glance to your left. 

[Ed Poore]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

except for the damn drivers side floor mat keeps flapping about on the foot rest which is annoying... 

Careful - that cost Toyota a fair few million to fix an issue like that...

[Retroanaconda]

11 hours ago, monkie said:

I agree, but it is horses for courses. In reality, not many people tow 3.5 tonnes on a regular basis.

It doesn’t have to be regular though, even if I only do it once a year then if the car can’t do it then I have a problem. The same with the range - I only do a c. 600 mile journey a couple of times a year but if it can’t do it without hours of charging then it’s a pain.

As for Tesla ‘dashboards’ I really don’t get them. You’re not allowed to use a phone while driving but it’s okay to operate a giant iPad stuck on the dash?  

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Retroanaconda said:

It doesn’t have to be regular though, even if I only do it once a year then if the car can’t do it then I have a problem. The same with the range - I only do a c. 600 mile journey a couple of times a year but if it can’t do it without hours of charging then it’s a pain.

As for Tesla ‘dashboards’ I really don’t get them. You’re not allowed to use a phone while driving but it’s okay to operate a giant iPad stuck on the dash?  

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse here or pick any arguments. I'm just trying to put my hand up and say I too held all these views and I would be the first to back you up just a week ago on all these points, until I actually gave an EV a proper go to gain some real world experience. I quickly realised I was completely wrong on all accounts. 

If for example I needed a long wheelbase transit van 1 day a year, I'd hire one for the day rather than keep one all year for the 99% of the time I didn't need it. Same with towing 3.5 tonnes. 

Stops on a 600 mile journey.... You'll be making them regardless for toilet, drinks, snacks and just a rest. An EV will be recharged before you are. Charging for hours is a misconception. You are not attempting to fill a battery from nearly empty to full as you would a tank of fuel. You just top it up as you take a quick break from the road. 

My current car, a petrol 2018 BMW is mostly controlled by a touch screen. The Tesla screen is just an extension of that replacing multiple knobs and switches. It is completely different to picking up a mobile phone and looking at it whilst driving. I admit the screen is alien at first and I didn't like it. My mind was changed before I left the M4 as everything you need is just one click away!

[Retroanaconda]

I realise that and do not meant to suggest you are being obtuse at all. I have a good amount of experience driving EVs at work and I agree that a good one will do most things for most people. But my point is that they can’t yet do everything for some people and I will wait until an EV exists that will match the usability of my current vehicle.

I don’t want to have to faff with hiring other vehicles, which will have to be EVs as well one day if they ever figure out how to make one that can tow properly. And I want the flexibility to do a 600 mile drive with one or two ten minute stops for the aforementioned conveniences rather than having to wait for a longer period while a car recharges. 

[monkie]

6 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

But my point is that they can’t yet do everything for some people and I will wait until an EV exists that will match the usability of my current vehicle.

Here's something else I might be wrong about... I think for a few years yet commercial vehicles that do need to tow heavy loads or carry bulky items will be diesel for the points you raise. 

But not cars / small vans. 

[Snagger]

5 hours ago, L19MUD said:

I have only had a look at the Etron GT which is the one that is the sister car to the Taycan and a lot more expensive than the rest of the range admittedly.

I probably was not being that clear - I am in the latter category too. The cars designed ground up as electric are going to be a much better comparative package than a redesigned ICE car. What I don't like is the futuristic styling nonsense for the sake of it, think back to the BMW i3 for example!

It is less the build quality but more the quality and design of the materials used. The fit, finish and material quality of say a BMW 5 series is leagues ahead of a Tesla. I also hate garish Tesla tablet thing that controls everything but that is more a personal taste thing I guess. In case people have never seen one a Model S (I know a new model is out soon) currently looks like this and starts at £80k

A BMW 5 Series around the 55k mark looks like this

Tesla have pioneered a lot of new ideas for EVs.  Let’s be honest - they drove the whole cultural shift towards them.  But their construction quality is notoriously bad.  I share what seems on this forum to be a common disdain for touchscreens in cars.

That said, the BMW 5 Series you gave as a comparison is not great either.  My employer has a fleet of them to take our pilots to and from work.  Their interiors are not that robust , especially the centre console back end and the rear seat arm rest, and the rear seat is horribly uncomfortable.  Their automatic rear tailgates can be glitchy and rattly.

At the end of the day, no car is perfect, and any highly used car is going to get worn.  Maybe as Land Rover owners, we are a bit more aware and yet tolerant of build quality problems… 😉 

[L19MUD]

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

Tesla have pioneered a lot of new ideas for EVs.  Let’s be honest - they drove the whole cultural shift towards them.  But their construction quality is notoriously bad.

That said, the BMW 5 Series you gave as a comparison is not great either.  My employer has a fleet of them to take our pilots to and from work.  Their interiors are not that robust , especially the centre console back end and the rear seat arm rest, and the rear seat is horribly uncomfortable.  Their automatic rear tailgates can be glitchy and rattly.

At the end of the day, no car is perfect, and any highly used car is going to get worn.  Maybe as Land Rover owners, we are a bit more aware and yet tolerant of build quality problems… 😉 

Re Tesla leading the 'charge' I totally agree. See 'watt' I did there...

Re the 5 series, maybe I am still too in love with my E39 535i AC Schnitzer from the glory days 🤣

[deep]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:31 AM, monkie said:

That has simply not been my experience at all over the past week doing motorway miles. You can even see what chargers are available before you arrive. I work to tight deadlines and have to be in places for appointments at specific times. I have not had any issue whatsoever in making any of my deadlines. 

... And this has all been with no home charger, so totally reliant on chargers out and about. Honestly, my experiences have shown me that there are so many myths and misperceptions out there. 

Maybe that is the case where you live but not here.  The trip I mentioned with my sister patiently knitting was mostly done on THE main highway that runs down the centre of the country (a bit like the M1/A1 in the UK).  I'm sure, if you run a battery car, that you quickly learn where chargers are but I barely see them.  They just aren't common yet and I'm 100% sure the vast bulk of charging is done at home here.  Unless you can guarantee a 400 mile range in hilly country with an overnight charge, it's completely unusable for work.  It's not myths and misconceptions, it's the reality of where you live and what you do.  I know some people who love their electric cars and push their limits.  They still borrowed a petrol one for a big road trip recently!

Oh yes, who wants to break up a journey with stops in crowded, noisy, disease-ridden and expensive places attached to petrol stations?  I much prefer to pull off the road, have a stretch by a river or beach and a snooze under a tree... 

[deep]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:21 AM, geoffbeaumont said:

Except that lighting is owned by Apple and no-one else can use it, whereas USB are standardised connectors explicitly intended to ensure interoperability. Apple's switch to lightning was a deliberate move away from standardisation (albeit the variety of older mini/micro USB standards made a bit of a mess) to a proprietary connector.

Looks like at least 7 anti-Apple bigots on this site.  Your choice.  Just don't promulgate myths. The move to lightning was intended to improve on the multi-pin iPod type plug on the best selling gadgets in the world.  Micro-USB didn't provide what was needed.  They did it first and have stuck with it for a decade, standardising on phones and iPads.  No deliberate move from standardisation and, as you point out, less of a mess than the hotchpotch various "competitors" used.

You might think it is great fun to bully a mega company.  I try not to be nasty but I really hope the day comes when someone forces you to stop doing something you rely on just because your neighbours have started using something newer.  Anyway, unless we talk about the Apple Car, we are off topic so I'll leave you to your strong bias.

[sean f]

12 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

That's pretty much it for most people - the average car on the roads is about 10 years old so that's a long tail for things to trickle down even as EV sales are going through the roof it will be 5-10 years before most of us find ourselves potentially owning one. Grumbling about the purchase price if you were never going to buy a brand new ICE vehicle either is daft.

This was pretty much what I meant when I said they were beyond the reach of most people, for a run about if I could get a second hand EV for around the £5-6K mark which my current Civic cost I would seriously consider it, most of my trips are short and I could charge at home so it would do what I want out of a run about (I won't even pretend the 90 or Silverado are sensible, they aren't I have them because I want to!, just as I expect most people have there LR's as well). I am sure prices will come down as they filter into the secondhand market and by that time there will also be a knowledge base on what is likely to go wrong with different models as they age, I am sure some models will have electrics that corrode of break down over time (and probable abuse) to fail just after the warrantee runs out or something similar, just as conventional car have there faults as well, they will just be different faults and a knowledge of fixes or workarounds that can be done will build up. I don't get any sort of company vehicle allowance and unless they invent a car that can fly and land on a helipad I won't be using one to get to work, it would just be for shopping etc.

At the moment a quick Ebay search for "electric car" suggests prices start at around 9 with most in the 15-20 or more range for full electric, I probable haven't found the best prices but they are clearly still to pricey for me at the moment.

[FridgeFreezer]

10 hours ago, sean f said:

At the moment a quick Ebay search for "electric car" suggests prices start at around 9 with most in the 15-20 or more range for full electric, I probable haven't found the best prices but they are clearly still to pricey for me at the moment.

I've done a trawl round Autotrader before, sorting by cheapest for every EV they've got listed and up to about 10k it's all manky old Nissan Leafs, the odd Renault Zoe and a few Smarts - but then, 5-10 years ago it was that or a Tesla and those are still in strong demand.

It will come down though - the general public are buying EV's faster than manufacturers can make them, I saw a quote from Ford's big cheese saying the demand for the electric F150 has taken them by surprise (and they were gearing up to make quite a few anyway), right now it feels like the problem is supply shortages in the industry and how fast they can build new bigger factories for batteries and electric motors.

[monkie]

17 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've done a trawl round Autotrader before, sorting by cheapest for every EV they've got listed and up to about 10k it's all manky old Nissan Leafs, the odd Renault Zoe and a few Smarts - but then, 5-10 years ago it was that or a Tesla and those are still in strong demand.

It will come down though - the general public are buying EV's faster than manufacturers can make them, I saw a quote from Ford's big cheese saying the demand for the electric F150 has taken them by surprise (and they were gearing up to make quite a few anyway), right now it feels like the problem is supply shortages in the industry and how fast they can build new bigger factories for batteries and electric motors.

Also as more and more people like me who are company car drivers switch to EVs will put a lot of higher mileage second hand ones in the market in 3 or 4 years which will help to drive down costs on the second hand market. 

[monkie]

11 hours ago, deep said:

Maybe that is the case where you live but not here

Yes, I did state when I mentioned a colleague in Sweden with an EV that you have to be careful comparing different countries with each other. My experiences and comments are limited to the UK. I have absolutely no idea what to infrastructure is like in your part of the world. 

[miketomcat]

The other elephant in the room is, at the moment there are tax incentives for ev but by the time the great unwashed could afford them the gov will have much less tax income from ice. The tax will have to come from somewhere..... So if you can afford the purchase price or it's a company car now is very much the time to have an ev because I feel owning/running a car is going to become unaffordable for the majority in the next 50 years. 

Mike

P.S. I hate touch screens in cars because I have to look at them a button I can find without looking. But then I don't like any technology in cars because I'm a luddite. 

[Nonimouse]

Mike, a luddite is not someone who is anti technology, but someone who is against technology simply for the sake of technology. Touch screens are very close to being banned in cars due to the number of FatAc's* caused by them.

The only thing pushing the EV movement is some pretty dubious environmental waffle, primarily aimed at generating fear and tax.  Yes, we have well and truly xxxxxx up the environment. Mostly through our utter loss of sustainability and a demand for new technology that is quickly time expired. We can't simply stop and put things right. We have to live with what we have done. EV's are yet to be sustainable, far from it. ICE is actually pretty sustainable but with maintenance and proper use. Hybrid Technolgy more so. We simply cannot run this planet without fossil fuels. The big polluters are an intrinsic part of our lives and unless we change, they stay.

Company cars are slowly becomming a thing of the past, with aither allowances or mileage rates covering useage. The mileage rates haven't been updated for years. Some sriving , like Monkie's are well suited to an EV, but a lot aren't. I'd be stuffed doing my job in an EV - but not in a Hybrid. But I have to buy my own car to then claim back the costs. Thus I'm forced into the cheaper, home serviced as much as possible, second hand car market; just like the bulk of my colleagues. That's about 6k people across the UK. 

Charging: I don't have the time to waste in Motorway service areas. Adding another hour onto a day with 8-9 hours driving, simply doesn't work. Meetings are generally not in Service Area's and rarely in anything but a temporary site office...Alternatively they are from my kitchen on Teams, something that is very common these days. I live in the middle of knowhere, so can't upgrade my electricity supply.  All of this is removed by a Hybrid - or chucking a genni in the back of the EV

Give it five years - then I reckon ther emight be a better market

 

*FatAc's - apologies, work term for Fatal Accident.

[Mo Murphy]

I'm an anti Apple bigot who bullies a mega company ?

Cool ! 😎 

Mo

[monkie]

7 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

ICE is actually pretty sustainable

How? Considering fuel has a lot of carbon associated with it before you even burn it and it is often sourced from politically unsavoury parts of the world? 

[Nonimouse]

14 hours ago, monkie said:

How? Considering fuel has a lot of carbon associated with it before you even burn it and it is often sourced from politically unsavoury parts of the world? 

Technology is has considerably reduced carbon output. Now that fuel sourcing from waste plastic has been finalised and proven, there is an enourmous sourceof fuel available. ICE vehicles are (at present) longer lasting with a much smaller carbon hole, than EV's (and EV's carbon hole is huge).