The financial crisis - a period of economic readjustment ?

[monkie]

A small and chealp second car takes the pressure away from when your land rover goes wrong, it is also far cheaper in fuel to run about in during the week days. Should your Land Rover fail, you can atleast get to work to earn money, wait and shop around for parts or wait until you can afford the fix. Also if things do get tight, you can SORN your more expensive to run land rover and cancel the insurance, but still have a backup to keep you mobile.

[Bowie69]

On the other hand, when your car isn't used daily it rots and deteriorates and becomes unreliable and it just drips money off it.

That's the reason I daily drive my '91 Audi Coupe Quattro 20V -cars don't like not being used.

Is a 200TDI LR more expensive to run? I'm not sure... parts are pretty cheap, fuel is not bad at ~30mpg.... and not losing anything in depreciation. I don't know really, but got to be very close.

[miketomcat]

We'll all I can say is the sums I did a while ago don't stack up, especially when the 110 goes tax exempt soon and I already car share for work.

Mike

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

On the other hand, when your car isn't used daily it rots and deteriorates and becomes unreliable and it just drips money off it.

That's the reason I daily drive my '91 Audi Coupe Quattro 20V -cars don't like not being used.

Is a 200TDI LR more expensive to run? I'm not sure... parts are pretty cheap, fuel is not bad at ~30mpg.... and not losing anything in depreciation. I don't know really, but got to be very close.

Agree with all of this. I think people need to look past just the mpg figures sometimes. My 110 is cheap to run for the reasons you mention, especially as I have no labour costs and if I do maintenance in the evening it stops me sitting around drinking beer and getting fatter!

[Bowie69]

1 minute ago, reb78 said:

drinking beer

Stopping doing this would save the country a huge amount, can't see it being poplar though  

[miketomcat]

2 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Stopping doing this would save the country a huge amount, can't see it being poplar though  

I already have, a long time ago.  to be fair my only vice (apart from being as mad as a box of frogs ) is cars, so make me drive a normal car and I might as well give up completely. 

Mike

[monkie]

54 minutes ago, reb78 said:

costs and if I do maintenance in the evening it stops me sitting around drinking beer and getting fatter!

Please share your secrets, I do maintenance but still manage to drink beer and get fatter 

[geoffbeaumont]

There's clearly quite a lot of love on this thread for traditional ranges. Which I suppose makes a certain amount of sense of you have a source of free fuel for them. They aren't the most efficient things, though, especially if you don't have an alternative means of cooking if you don't need heating.

We had an Aga in the house when we moved in, with no other cooker. I quite liked the idea initially but rapidly went off it. Ours was gas fuelled, so no messing around stoking, but even three years ago it was ferociously expensive to run - burned it's way through about £300 of gas a month, all year round. Made the middle of the house unbearably hot, even before we sorted the insulation, and we couldn't find anywhere we could put the central heating thermostat that wouldn't be either near permanently on or leaving the extremities of the building freezing. Turn it down enough to get the house comfortable (at least in cold weather) and you couldn't cook on it... 

Horrible to cook on, too - all the Aga cooking techniques are about working round it's limitations.

It was a huge improvement when we ripped it out and replaced it with a modern cooker!

[reb78]

11 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

There's clearly quite a lot of love on this thread for traditional ranges. Which I suppose makes a certain amount of sense of you have a source of free fuel for them. They aren't the most efficient things, though, especially if you don't have an alternative means of cooking if you don't need heating.

We had an Aga in the house when we moved in, with no other cooker. I quite liked the idea initially but rapidly went off it. Ours was gas fuelled, so no messing around stoking, but even three years ago it was ferociously expensive to run - burned it's way through about £300 of gas a month, all year round. Made the middle of the house unbearably hot, even before we sorted the insulation, and we couldn't find anywhere we could put the central heating thermostat that wouldn't be either near permanently on or leaving the extremities of the building freezing. Turn it down enough to get the house comfortable (at least in cold weather) and you couldn't cook on it... 

Horrible to cook on, too - all the Aga cooking techniques are about working round it's limitations.

It was a huge improvement when we ripped it out and replaced it with a modern cooker!

I'd never consider gas or oil for the Rayburn - hugely expensive as you say on either of those. Mine is replacing a log burner in the kitchen which would be burning fuel anyway in the winter. The log burner is only small and keeps the areas it links to by convection really warm but I figured the Rayburn will do that (sure it will burn a bit more), and the rest of the house and the hot water. It used to be at my mums house and did the job really well there. It will also do slow cooked stews/pot roast etc really well. It can be a pain to cook on but its a bit like a steam engine... you need to get it fired up in advance, but you do know there will always be a kettle on the boil regardless!

[reb78]

16 minutes ago, monkie said:

Please share your secrets, I do maintenance but still manage to drink beer and get fatter 

Haha. I try not to take beer with me when working on the car... thats all. If i am not sat idle all evening I find it helps not to keep visiting the fridge!

[Nonimouse]

2 hours ago, miketomcat said:

Please explain how running two vehicles is cheaper than running one? I'd still have all the costs of one (granted less fuel) but then I'd have all the additional costs of the second car. Plus I'd have to spend time fixing a car I hate. Sorry but this doesn't make any kind of sense! 

Mike

I can tell you it's not. I run a 2wd Vitara, that I was given by my late father. One of the most reliable cars ever built - according to my local garage owner, hence why he drives one and so does his wife.

It's a 1600cc VVT lump. Very economic, reasonable to insure, reasonable on tax. Great car. But It still has to be insured, mot'd, filled with fuel, serviced, tyres wear out, etc etc. Ok, it's super reliable, but the oil is made of something so expensive, it must be liquidised diamonds. Tyres are 215/55x17 (I think) and blooming expensive, especially if you buy cheap carp. Even air freshners are pricey.

The cheaper option is one vehicle, per driver, in the household. One vehicle to do everything and that doesn't exist

[Happyoldgit]

39 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I'd never consider gas or oil for the Rayburn - hugely expensive as you say on either of those. Mine is replacing a log burner in the kitchen which would be burning fuel anyway in the winter. The log burner is only small and keeps the areas it links to by convection really warm but I figured the Rayburn will do that (sure it will burn a bit more), and the rest of the house and the hot water. It used to be at my mums house and did the job really well there. It will also do slow cooked stews/pot roast etc really well. It can be a pain to cook on but its a bit like a steam engine... you need to get it fired up in advance, but you do know there will always be a kettle on the boil regardless!

The AGA we inherited when we bought this place has been here since the early '50's and would happily tick over on a bucket of coke a day. We all enjoyed the thing both for cooking and the ability to boil a big kettle or saucepans of water. What was a chore was the coke dust that got everywhere and fumes especially when we opened the thing up for riddling and stoking last thing at night. When our local coalman eventually retired the AGA's cast barrel finally gave up too but I had already investigated the various electric conversions on the market and chose the one that got the most thumbs up from users. We now have the choice of using it like an ordinary cooker with two independent hotplates or to keep the oven on to warm up the whole thing so it acts as a big radiator which was one of the original  ideas behind the AGA, Rayburn's in the first place. One up to temperature the thing can be turned down to a tickover to keep the whole thing warm and acting in the traditional way including being able to use the  venerable laundry drier that has been hanging from pulleys in the ceiling since Adam was a lad. Old fashioned yes but it works.

[Happyoldgit]

All this self servicing and fixing of the vehicle of your choice is fine until, God forbid, illness strikes or the effects of old age set in. I spent years, no decades, doing all my own repairs and fixes on my / our daily drivers and usually enjoyed it but hated the stress of having to get something done as the vehicle was needed later that day or in the morning.

[reb78]

3 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

 the stress of having to get something done as the vehicle was needed later that day or in the morning.

this stress is what kept the 110 on the road for me. Its been sat for 18 months now as i bought something else while it was off the road for a chassis change. All sorts of other stuff is getting in the way and its stressing me more that i am not doing the 110 now! Apparently i cannot de stress!

[Nonimouse]

15 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

All this self servicing and fixing of the vehicle of your choice is fine until, God forbid, illness strikes or the effects of old age set in. I spent years, no decades, doing all my own repairs and fixes on my / our daily drivers and usually enjoyed it but hated the stress of having to get something done as the vehicle was needed later that day or in the morning.

Amen to that. After years of abuse, my body is no longer healing and my back has become a major problem, that's not fixable. I dread doing the heavy work, as I know it will hurt. I've got to change a set of rear springs and shocks on a Mk3 ranger this weekend. I'm defiently not looking forward to that

[Bowie69]

29 minutes ago, reb78 said:

this stress is what kept the 110 on the road for me. Its been sat for 18 months now as i bought something else while it was off the road for a chassis change. All sorts of other stuff is getting in the way and its stressing me more that i am not doing the 110 now! Apparently i cannot de stress!

Exactly, daily drive, stressful occasionally when under pressure maybe, but it keeps working, and keeps you making it keep working.

As above though, assuming your body is up to it, of course.

[Bowie69]

46 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

The AGA we inherited when we bought this place has been here since the early '50's and would happily tick over on a bucket of coke a day. We all enjoyed the thing both for cooking and the ability to boil a big kettle or saucepans of water. What was a chore was the coke dust that got everywhere and fumes especially when we opened the thing up for riddling and stoking last thing at night.

This is my parents experience with an Aga, my mum won't ever be without it, 2/3 of a hod of anthracite and keeps running all day on that, think the cost works out about £18/week. Oil would be more like £60-80/week at today's prices.

Coal is much, much cheaper than any liquid hydrocarbons or electric to give a great base level of heat (2KW heat all the time is often quoted) which means the log burner is only lit on very much colder days -my parents are both in their 70s, so hardly spring chickens.

 

[FridgeFreezer]

On the economics of cars I think it's fairly well possible to justify almost any choice, especially using anecdotes and broad estimates of things like reliability, parts & servicing costs.

A lot of it is so marginal that you may as well drive what you like anyway and be happy, but don't grumble about the compromises you've accepted by doing that.

I've got two V8's which I like a lot, but I chose to have them and I have to accept that I'm going to get mugged at every petrol station and that they are not an economically sensible solution to anything. For the use they get, the pros outweigh the cons.

[Snagger]

4 hours ago, miketomcat said:

Please explain how running two vehicles is cheaper than running one? I'd still have all the costs of one (granted less fuel) but then I'd have all the additional costs of the second car. Plus I'd have to spend time fixing a car I hate. Sorry but this doesn't make any kind of sense! 

Mike

It depends on many factors, but a small car will be substantially cheaper on fuel, probably cheaper on insurance and maintenance and road tax, and may be a fair bit cheaper on parking.  The savings difference may outweigh the cost of the purchase of the second car.  It did for me, and I only got rid of it because I didn’t have the parking space at home or the inclination to fix the electric windows or heater when the broke.

[Bowie69]

I don't want to drive something I don't care about, it gets abused and end up driving like a muppet because I get bored.

And I can't ever care about a small euro box.

[Northwards]

In relation to the OP and the original concept of the thread, then I do tend to think that we might be seeing the beginnings of more fundamental changes - maybe a growing realisation that what we've been doing just isn't sustainable.

 

1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

 hated the stress of having to get something done as the vehicle was needed later that day or in the morning.

But what I really meant to say was that I agree so wholeheartedly with this. My solution has been two cars - the 28 y/o Defender, and the 22 y/o P38. I try very hard to have one mobile at all times, so if one is on axle stands in the garage getting something done, the other will only get minor/routine maintenance.  Neither owe me anything anymore, and I can live with the road tax and V8 fuel consumption. 

[Snagger]

Do hobbies need to be sustainable as such?  Life is too short to keep putting off things that you want to do just because they might not be economically sensible.  If you can afford to do something you like, then enjoy it.  We all seem a sensible enough bunch on here about planning for our futures and not getting into ludicrous debts, so just remember  to enjoy your life as well as be responsible.

HOG’s comment is just what I feel about it.  Have project and hobby vehicles that bring the enjoyment and a cheap, reliable (or expensive and reliable if you are fortunate enough) that allows the project vehicle to be done at a pace that suits, not a rush.  I spent £500 on that Cavalier, and about £100 more on insurance.  Over the next year it saved me more than that on my commute in fuel and allowed me to rebuild that 109 with absolutely no time pressure, giving me clear days off whenever I wanted them.  It might initially appear an expensive option to have a second car, but if you are frugal about it, then in many cases it can bring some savings rather than expenses.

[cackshifter]

Yes makes sense but 2 Land Rovers is still a bit marginal. I can see now why some folks have lots. I mean, 1 to work on, 1 waiting for parts, 1 to drive, 1 for the wife etc

[Northwards]

3 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Yes makes sense but 2 Land Rovers is still a bit marginal. I can see now why some folks have lots. I mean, 1 to work on, 1 waiting for parts, 1 to drive, 1 for the wife etc

Ah ... I should also have mentioned my wife's Skoda Yeti, which I get to drive in emergencies!

[Snagger]

4 minutes ago, cackshifter said:

Yes makes sense but 2 Land Rovers is still a bit marginal. I can see now why some folks have lots. I mean, 1 to work on, 1 waiting for parts, 1 to drive, 1 for the wife etc

It depends on condition; if one is a reliable vehicle which needs nothing more than servicing on schedule, then it’s not hard, but two project vehicles would be tiresome and financially difficult.