Axle components - What to upgrade first?

[Bowie69]

Rational.

[Ed Poore]

I also hadn't appreciated with the LT230 you can still retain the locking feature (as far as I know) with an ATB centre so as far as I'm aware the only downside is you can't "spec" a heavy duty centre with the ATB.

When bought an Ashcroft LT230 I thought by having an ATB in the centre I'd lose the centre diff lock. I think it was @V8 Freak that corrected me. I'd had a heavy duty centre specced anyway so it was swings and roundabouts.

It would be nice to remove slop though, most of mine currently comes from the transfer box output shafts. Mind you I haven't found the roundtuits to check things over properly.

[Gazzar]

Shame there isn't an ATB for the LT95. There was a LSD in the early RRC boxes, but the consequent driving characteristics were considered undesirable.

[uninformed]

There is play at the input shaft to input gear. There is play between the hi/low hub and the hi/low selector ring. There is play between the hi/low selector ring and the dog teeth on the respective output gears. There is play in the centre diff gears, especially on/off throttle.
 

While there is play in the output shaft splines into the side gears,  (not so much the output flange end due to the big nut and big torque to fasten) this is not that much. I can tell you from very recent experience not only rebuilding multiple LT230s, but factory centre diffs AND Ashcroft ATBs, the ATB has little to no output play due to the pre load (by design) that the shaft has to overcome.

 

Ill be doing a video soon to show this as it makes installing the front output housing a bit tricky, so I’ll also do a comparison between the factory centre diff and Ashcroft ATB.

 

There has been 3 basic variations of the LT230 Centre Diff. The original had forged and ground gears. Then in 98’ they changed the gears to what seems to be made by sintering (not as good as previous) They also changed the hi/low hub spline to slightly bigger OD (I can not see an advantage either way) Then at some point in the Tdci version they changed the hemisphere to an open cast design (think Rover diff) with only one cross shaft and two gears. 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

As a side note the pre 200 Tdi era LT230 had thicker, stronger dog teeth and corresponding splines for the hi/low hub, selector ring and output gears.

[Gazzar]

Do you post the videos on YouTube?

[uninformed]

4 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Do you post the videos on YouTube?

I’ve just started doing a couple. We are lucky to have guys like Mike from Britannica Restorations who have a huge range of LR videos which is a great resource for us. I’m only doing specific bits of things LR related that  I haven’t seen covered. It’s definitely amateur hour lol

 

 

[Gazzar]

I've been tempted to make a few. But it's a huge time soak, so I respect anyone who does do this sort of thing. Thanks.

 

Just looked at that video, very good. That was a long take. That's hard.

[Snagger]

17 hours ago, uninformed said:

 

 

There has been 3 basic variations of the LT230 Centre Diff. The original had forged and ground gears. Then in 98’ they changed the gears to what seems to be made by sintering (not as good as previous) They also changed the hi/low hub spline to slightly bigger OD (I can not see an advantage either way) Then at some point in the Tdci version they changed the hemisphere to an open cast design (think Rover diff) with only one cross shaft and two gears. 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

As a side note the pre 200 Tdi era LT230 had thicker, stronger dog teeth and corresponding splines for the hi/low hub, selector ring and output gears.

Hard not to have contempt for production “engineers”.  All they do is take a good design and screw it up so that the manufacturer can save pennies in the short term at the cost of recalls, warranty claims and their reputation, all on the orders of even more myopic bean counters.

[uninformed]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

Hard not to have contempt for production “engineers”.  All they do is take a good design and screw it up so that the manufacturer can save pennies in the short term at the cost of recalls, warranty claims and their reputation, all on the orders of even more myopic bean counters.

Yep very frustrating

What I don’t understand is how it’s actually economically beneficial considering LR low volume (comparatively to big auto) to make changes that not only need new tooling, but to implement new trailing or procedures, new part number logging, etc etc. 

ok so a shorter stub axle can start out a smaller forging at a little saving, but those dog teeth on the gear blank are not going to save more material, only increase machining 🤷🏻‍♂️

They really did some silly backwards step taking, though I will applaud them for improving the LT230 case structurally and improving the input gear ( gear width, cross drilled and then more bearing separation) 

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, uninformed said:

Yep very frustrating

What I don’t understand is how it’s actually economically beneficial considering LR low volume (comparatively to big auto) to make changes that not only need new tooling, but to implement new trailing or procedures, new part number logging, etc etc. 

ok so a shorter stub axle can start out a smaller forging at a little saving, but those dog teeth on the gear blank are not going to save more material, only increase machining 🤷🏻‍♂️

They really did some silly backwards step taking, though I will applaud them for improving the LT230 case structurally and improving the input gear ( gear width, cross drilled and then more bearing separation) 

In the instance of Defender parts like this case, I suspect the justification was farming out production to India to free up space in Solihull for other production lines of parts for other models.  I suspect little of the Defender TDCI was produced in the UK, just final assembly - a reverse CKD of sorts.  That would include LT230s; once the Discovery II was phased out, only the low volume Defender used it, so I doubt it remained entirely UK built for long.

[Retroanaconda]

And what’s the failure rate of later LT230 centre diffs compared to earlier ones? 

[uninformed]

1 hour ago, Retroanaconda said:

And what’s the failure rate of later LT230 centre diffs compared to earlier ones? 

A well know independent LR specialist here in Oz has seen much high % failures of the later Tdci than earlier versions. And given they are failing in less harsh conditions than the usual LT230 failures I’d say that shows something. They also suffered from the Q gears as the Tdci is 1.2 ratio. 
 

Another point of failure was the brainiac that decided friction welding the end flanges on the front housing was overkill and a GMAW joint (NOT full penetration mind you) was good enough… the failures , recall and bodgie fix would prove otherwise. 

[Nonimouse]

On 2/28/2023 at 10:38 PM, ThreePointFive said:

I can't speak for the motivations of others but my rationale for a centre ATB was:

1. It would engage automatically if I had missed the cues it was time to use the lever - more applicable to an on-road situation where one might not expect to need it and the reaction time would be minimal

2. I heard they remove slop in the drivetrain and I'm all for improving the driving experience

3. I was going to get it refurbished anyway and the cost was a minimal increase for the potential benefits 

If that makes me a fool then so be it.

Defiently doesn't make you a fool

[fmmv]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:23 AM, uninformed said:

A well know independent LR specialist here in Oz has seen much high % failures of the later Tdci than earlier versions. And given they are failing in less harsh conditions than the usual LT230 failures I’d say that shows something. They also suffered from the Q gears as the Tdci is 1.2 ratio. 
 

Another point of failure was the brainiac that decided friction welding the end flanges on the front housing was overkill and a GMAW joint (NOT full penetration mind you) was good enough… the failures , recall and bodgie fix would prove otherwise. 

You are talking about an organisation that thought saving 7p by taking a magnet out of the sump plug (on trucks) was a good idea. 

[uninformed]

On 3/3/2023 at 5:20 PM, Retroanaconda said:

And what’s the failure rate of later LT230 centre diffs compared to earlier ones? 

Add another one. A mates 2012 (I think) 90, completely stock standard, daily driver with VERY little off road use. He found the tcase making a grinding noise when he had the gearbox out to do the clutch. 
 

 

[Gazzar]

What should I be seeing? The bearings look worn/cage rusty, but could be disassembly debris.  The diff looks out of alignment, but that could be an artifact in the image processing.

Not familiar with the lt230.

[ThreePointFive]

When I went for my MOT, there was a very, very late 2016 Defender in the car park. Apparently it has also shat it's transfer box and was awaiting an entire replacement. No idea who from but I suppose they'll be long out of warranty now. It's interesting that it seems they have a different issue to the intermediate shaft one.

I'd still argue mine was having a worse time on the day.

[uninformed]

1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

What should I be seeing? The bearings look worn/cage rusty, but could be disassembly debris.  The diff looks out of alignment, but that could be an artifact in the image processing.

Not familiar with the lt230.

Nothing particular other than it’s the late carp type. One of the pinion gears welded to the cross shaft. This a well maintained vehicle, the owner of many LRs stock to highly modified. These are just poor design and poor quality. 

[Gazzar]

Cool. JLR aren't an engineering company, they are a lifestyle accessory company, so not a surprise.

[Snagger]

4 hours ago, Gazzar said:

What should I be seeing? The bearings look worn/cage rusty, but could be disassembly debris.  The diff looks out of alignment, but that could be an artifact in the image processing.

Not familiar with the lt230.

Looks like the cross pin is out of perpendicular, judging by the uneven gap with the front output bevel gear.  Either pin is broken or the carrier’s pin hole is very ovalised.  I’d suspect the latter.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

couple of links that might be useful :

 

https://megasquirt-v8.co.uk/diff_faq.php

https://megasquirt-v8.co.uk/diff_faq.php

https://megasquirt-v8.co.uk/diff_videos.php

 

My advise is to think LONG and HARD - get the choice wrong and it will be expensive

 

One way I explain ATBs vs Lockers.

 

Think of a scale of 1 -1 0

what you have as standatd is 1 - unlocked open

a Locker is actually either 1 or 10, nothing in between.

 

An atb work automatically, on and off the road it will be 1,2 maybe 3, 4 5, even 6, in real trouble 7 possiby even 8 ...and that it.

It will NEVER EVER get to 9 or 10 - that locker country

 

BUT

 

ATBs are kinder to transmission than either open diffs (1 x half shaft spinning other stationary, then the one spinning comes to meet a rock .... "BANG"

Lockers are serious HARD on the drive train vs a ATB both locked and open (see above)

 

Build the back axle STRONG, and maybe as many customer do - HD shaft in the front but leave the standrad CVs as a "Fuse" stubs on stndard CVs normally are the bit to go, easy to change saves a fortune over HD CVs, and if its the stub on CV shearing off all the debris and swarf is tyre end not expensive diff end.

And HD CVs are not eaxctly cheap

 

Lockers mean most expensive, plus compressor comlplexity and pipe work switches and knowledge as to where to / not to use hardest on drive train.

 

ATBs give 0-8 on and off road no driver input geared (ATB) vs LSD (Plates) standard oil, save loads of money simple fit, and softer on drivcetrain, as a trick if an ATB lifts a wheel of the ground it stops working - just touch the brakes a little bit - and yer orf again !!

Nige

[ThreePointFive]

Thanks Nige, plenty to think about there but the core message is that an ATB is kinder to the vehicle and will be cheaper to install and maintain.

Along with better performance in ice/snow and I've seen ATBs are better on wet grass, they fit my use case more than full lockers.

The only problem now is the head gasket/exhaust/fuel system issues (and a skiing holiday) having wiped out any chance of doing it in the next few months.

 

 

[Nonimouse]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:10 PM, ThreePointFive said:

Thanks Nige, plenty to think about there but the core message is that an ATB is kinder to the vehicle and will be cheaper to install and maintain.

Along with better performance in ice/snow and I've seen ATBs are better on wet grass, they fit my use case more than full lockers.

The only problem now is the head gasket/exhaust/fuel system issues (and a skiing holiday) having wiped out any chance of doing it in the next few months.

 

 

Sam

A big lesson here is that they are not better on Snow/Ice/clay on rock, spring grass. They are more likely to get you into trouble if you don't know how to deal with the huge changein handling characteristics.  Once you understand how to use them, they are a useful tool in the armoury. If I had a pound for every person who turns up at an off road site, thinking they will now be able to go anywhere...or for the person who thinks they can get anywhere in snow

Having said that, the ATB is a good route to go down. Then gets some training, or take your vehicle on a skid pan

[Snagger]

On 4/11/2023 at 9:26 PM, Nonimouse said:

Sam

A big lesson here is that they are not better on Snow/Ice/clay on rock, spring grass. They are more likely to get you into trouble if you don't know how to deal with the huge changein handling characteristics.  Once you understand how to use them, they are a useful tool in the armoury. If I had a pound for every person who turns up at an off road site, thinking they will now be able to go anywhere...or for the person who thinks they can get anywhere in snow

Having said that, the ATB is a good route to go down. Then gets some training, or take your vehicle on a skid pan

They are significantly better on those surfaces than an open diff.  But I think the point that you are making is that driver awareness and thought is still the most important factor, and that they don’t increase overall grip for braking or manoeuvring.  It’s not just mornings at play sites thinking that locking diffs and oversize tyres make them invincible - every other SUV driver in snowy road conditions thinks that way, many of them ending up littering the ditches and hedges, often backwards!  They don’t help much with either steering or stopping, but they help enormously getting moving or keeping moving up a slippery slope, allowing a trundle where others need a run up.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

They are significantly better on those surfaces than an open diff.

Only if you understand how to drive with them is (I think) the point.

As I'm sure was previously mentioned, locking stuff on slippery surfaces actually forces wheels to break traction the moment you turn, whereas the default standard "fully open" setup can maintain unbroken traction to all 4 wheels if you're driving carefully and there's no disturbing factor like major bumps or slopes. If traction is lost, then yes locking/biasing becomes an advantage.

When we had all the snow a while back I scientifically demonstrated in the 109 that putting the rear locker in made for far more effective donuts than without as it's forcing the wheels to break traction far more easily. For science, you understand.