dantd5 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I am surely afraid of this post being sent to another area but I felt I needed to "Secrete" this irritation in me ! It might help the Newbies on the forum as well. - This is a td5 110 99 mod * When I changed my master cylinder, it sounded quite easy from the thread I read but then suddenly something pops up! Removal from behind the break pump took ages not forgetting the time it took to get the lines in place- Went a day without the truck. *When changing the door locks, I got stuck when I was getting the windows in place... took some more time than calculated. * Swivel Pin removal and fitting of new one took me a whole weekend..I got locked when I had to take some good time unscrewing the hexagonal screw on the caliper- Drilling and chiseling out the steering stop which was headless- but you still hear " It takes 15 minutes" * Prop.shaft (front) removal and refitting a new one took me 2 days in a row because 2 nuts got jammed and needed to be drilled out. And getting new brake pads into place was like fighting Evander Hollyfield. (Skinny as a starved marathon runner) *When changing the spring coils (4) on the defender the clamp got intertwinned and upon getting that near to getting it off it slipped and nearly sent me flying off to the neighbours shed. Result- finger swell, chest pain and some days of rest! What is the definition of time? The gurus of the forum can advice us newbies or old hands on this:huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Time is exponential when working on a Landrover - 5 mins equals approx. 35 mins, 10 mins usually equals an afternoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fender1234 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 ive had this so many times, i now go out to fix somthing expecting it to take hours then its a nice surprise if it doesnt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eduardo Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 An engineering empiric law said that you must multiply all the expected times to complete a work by PI. So if somebody said that took 15 minutes you must multiply this number by 3.14 = 47 minutes. Others more pesimist said that you also must use the following measure unit (seconds should be minutes, minutes should be hours). That means that our 15 minutes are equal to 47 hours instead of minutes. Believe me, in most cases the second works better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 i've got a cat replacement downpipe for my 90 sat in the garage that i got last christmas.... only needs the 3 studs removing from the bottom of the turbo and the clamp to the section section removing and the downpipe is out. But the studs/bolts look like they have been attached to the titanic for 50 years and they will snap. meaning i then have to remove the turbo out of the engine bay to drill them out. Removing that will mean at least one manifold stud snapping in the cylinder head.... so a 15 minute job could end up taking several days. Hence why its still sat in the garage cos i havent found a spare weekend in the past 12 months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Software development is an area where this problem comes up all the time, most new features take "10 minutes" to add but strangely it's notoriously unusual for a piece of software to be released on the first expected date. A good solution to this in software development could also be applied to Land Rover maintenance. Rather than estimating a specific time you estimate in units. When faced with a task you break it down into units and give each unit a relative time. Pressing in a bush, for example might be estimated as taking 3 units while undoing a bolt is 1 unit. So in a job like changing a panhard rod bush you'd have 1 unit for each bolt (2) 4 units for pressing out the old bush and 3 units for pressing in the new bush. 3 more units to put the panhard rod back and tighten up the two bolts. So the whole job will take 12 units of time. The principle is based on the theory that if you took someone to the top of a tall building and asked them to estimate the height of all the surrounding tall buildings most people wouldn't have a clue how tall they were. If you asked them which buildings were taller than others it's a lot easier to get a precise answer. If the first bolt, which you estimated as 1 unit, takes 30 minutes because you have to cut it out then it's a fair bet that you should allow a total of 6 hours for the job (12 units at 30 mins each. If it comes out in 2 minutes then a 24 minute completion is looking good. Over time you start to learn what your personal unit is in real time and it's amazing how accurate you can start to become with your initial estimates and when you are asked at midday on Saturday "are you going to spend all bloody weekend under that Land Rover ?" you can reply along the lines of, "well this is a 45 unit job and I've achieved 2 units per hour so far, you work it out !" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Over time you start to learn what your personal unit is in real time and it's amazing how accurate you can start to become with your initial estimates and when you are asked at midday on Saturday "are you going to spend all bloody weekend under that Land Rover ?" you can reply along the lines of, "well this is a 45 unit job and I've achieved 2 units per hour so far, you work it out !" which roughly equates to the other half answering:- [kicks you in the balls whilst lying under landie] Dont be clever with me. I'M OFF SHOPPING AND DONT DARE ASK HOW MUCH I SPEND!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsmith Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 When I tell my wife I'm off to do a wee job on the landy she just laughs now, so it looks like I've been found out Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The times quotes are either a way of being big-headed (I can do it in 10-minutes), or if everything goes perfectly. It doesn't take much for it all to go pear-shaped though, and a rounded nut or sheared bolt suddenly drags it right out. Having done it before makes a huge difference though - knowing how to do it before you start and likely pitfalls. There's a guy on another website that claims he can do a clutch in 2-hours and I frankly don't think so. I work fast and have experience, but it still takes me about 4hrs to do it. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantd5 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Time is exponential when working on a Landrover - 5 mins equals approx. 35 mins, 10 mins usually equals an afternoon Currenlty I dare not tell other half "I'm into the garage" The time factor has been exponential! And in these cold seasons I need to be fast cause she owes the garage. Working in -8 degrees.... DOH!!! A day turns to 3 days and Heynes has warned against short cuts! Scary though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crwoody Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 "10 minute job" = "kiss of death" Did it again the other day. Oil on the N/S back wheel of my recently aquired Disco (300), "that'll be the drive flange bolts loose, I'll just whip the wheel off and tighten them up", finally got it all back together about 6 hours later after having to remove the hub and drill out 3 broken bolts. Trouble is, yesterday I checked the other side "just to be sure" and found four out of five broken on this side, I think it will have to wait until it gets a bit warmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardAllen Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 "10 minute job" = "kiss of death" Did it again the other day. Oil on the N/S back wheel of my recently aquired Disco (300), "that'll be the drive flange bolts loose, I'll just whip the wheel off and tighten them up", finally got it all back together about 6 hours later after having to remove the hub and drill out 3 broken bolts. Trouble is, yesterday I checked the other side "just to be sure" and found four out of five broken on this side, I think it will have to wait until it gets a bit warmer. An estimating rule of thumb which has stood me in good stead for years is: Ask three experts and add the results together. Slightly more optimistic than the PI formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 "Times a good healer" by the time of your next job, you'd forgotten all of this. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 as this is not Defender specfic, I'm shifting it to the International forum, as it'll get more views/readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gruntus Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 18 months to rebuild my 90 has turned into a "rolling" 18 months..... cheers G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuman Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I just set the whole day aside to do the 10min job now, admittedly I've been quite lucky recently and got most finished in an hour or so. Only problem is my friends see me working in the drive and pop over with their car woe's seem to be fixing their cars more than mine, so it still takes the whole day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 One day set aside to sort out the rear brakes and studs, turned into five. In relation to a heater matrix - "just undo the four nuts and remove from engine bay" was a bit optimistic - forgetting that I need another person for two of the nuts (didn't have one to hand), and that I needed some kind of wormhole to get the heater box through the space in the engine bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy511 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 imo any job on a landrover will take double what you expect. if it goes well your lucky, and it takes less time. when i re built my series 3 i really thought a year would see it done, it took me 4! after a while i think you just become oblivious to how long a job takes and keep plodding away untill its done. these days im lucky, i borrow any special tools and have dont alot of jobs to my landrovers and know what to expect - the worst! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I find the actual time is inversely proportional to the expected time - a 10 minute job like greasing props turns into a saga of snapped grease-nipple or exploding grease-gun or such like, whereas the many hours of expected faffing to find a strange vibration will take two minutes when you find your missing screwdriver rattling round the engine bay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Software development is an area where this problem comes up all the time, most new features take "10 minutes" to add but strangely it's notoriously unusual for a piece of software to be released on the first expected date. A good solution to this in software development could also be applied to Land Rover maintenance. Rather than estimating a specific time you estimate in units. When faced with a task you break it down into units and give each unit a relative time. Pressing in a bush, for example might be estimated as taking 3 units while undoing a bolt is 1 unit. So in a job like changing a panhard rod bush you'd have 1 unit for each bolt (2) 4 units for pressing out the old bush and 3 units for pressing in the new bush. 3 more units to put the panhard rod back and tighten up the two bolts. So the whole job will take 12 units of time. The principle is based on the theory that if you took someone to the top of a tall building and asked them to estimate the height of all the surrounding tall buildings most people wouldn't have a clue how tall they were. If you asked them which buildings were taller than others it's a lot easier to get a precise answer. If the first bolt, which you estimated as 1 unit, takes 30 minutes because you have to cut it out then it's a fair bet that you should allow a total of 6 hours for the job (12 units at 30 mins each. If it comes out in 2 minutes then a 24 minute completion is looking good. Over time you start to learn what your personal unit is in real time and it's amazing how accurate you can start to become with your initial estimates and when you are asked at midday on Saturday "are you going to spend all bloody weekend under that Land Rover ?" you can reply along the lines of, "well this is a 45 unit job and I've achieved 2 units per hour so far, you work it out !" Our Sofrware Architects must use the same principal only they estimate 200 days for a job that only takes 75! Not supprisingly my customers now question every quote I give them and I now spend 125 days of unpaid time to get them to trust me! Marc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I learnt years ago from people who knew, that it is better to overestimate times and come in early than to get your estimate slightly wrong and be even slightly late. In the RAF we would tell the pilots that a 5 minute 'technical tap' job would take 3 hours. So you go out, bash the offending pressure switch or whatever with a plastic hammer, have a cup of tea and then tell them it's ready. Everyone is then happy. If you tell them it's going to take 5 mins and it takes 15, then you are in trouble. Later, when I was a programmer, we worked on the rule of 3 (almost identical to pi) when it came to estimating jobs. If you can come in under time and under budget everyone is happy. But estimating jobs on aircraft and computers is not the same as estimating time on Land Rovers, because: 1) You don't know what pillock worked on the thing before you (in most cases; if the pillock is you, that's your own fault ) 2) Aircraft have high-quality bolts that are not rusted solid 3) You must have all the special tools required, not just a hammer and a screwdriver to do the job 4) The manuals are not written by either Haynes or Land Rover (dunno which is the worst, nowadays) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The only time I find jobs go really quickly is when I am expecting them to take an age - so I put the job off for weeks until I get a whole weekend to do the job, I get all the tools prepared etc then go to do the job and I'm almost disappointed when the job is over after 10 mins with no problems. Gives me a chance to do a few more non-critical jobs whilst I've got the time though! Don't get many jobs on a LR that go smoothly though, but you do get quicker at doing those jobs as you tend to get practise re-doing the jobs espically if you use britpart parts! Lift pump Replacement on a Disco is a good example of a job which sounds quite complex but actually only took a few mins. Noisy wheel bearing on a Series is a job which I planned to take a morning and it took three days, due to being the other bearing on the other side of the swivel, which ended up needed the half shaft replacing - and me not really having a clue what I was doing - would have taken much longer without the help of the internet forums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantd5 Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 would have taken much longer without the help of the internet forums! Sotal I surely am with you. I must admit I make thorough research before going on any task. And do get the parts all purchased. One Instance I bought the grill intercooler and stripped down every thing just to find out that the part that came was for a 200tdi Had a meeting and thought I was going to take 3 hours. The Td5 99 model 110 stood for 3 days until the correct part arrived. Currently all my major projects have been set to summer or '99 when it is shiny! It is -4 degree here and wouldn't risk freezing out there. "Procrastination is the haste of time" Maybe Les should start assigning working hours to his techical archives. - Replacement of master and slave cylinder.......1 hour plus slight finger cut and a bath in brake fluid (Dot 4 oil) - Hubseal removal (Chrome) ......2 hours plus spraying the workshop with one shot swivel chrome greeze/oil - PAS box removal .......4 hours plus knee scratch, scurry and droppings in eyes - Clutch replacement .......5 days risk of being maimed if bell housing lands on knee I wouldn't be surprised if many of the newbies call the workshop and get mechanics to their homes to help them out and shoulder all heavy costs involved!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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