EU attacking us again?

[elbekko]

Not bad, but I have some doubts about this bit:

The Commission proposes that the drivers of a vehicle registered in a Member State shall keep on board the roadworthiness certificate corresponding to the latest roadworthiness test and the report of the last roadside inspection (if applicable).

We do not agree with this proposal which is contrary to the widely held UK principle that private individuals should not be required to carry ID or other official papers as part of their normal daily activities. Our strongly held view is that the current UK system whereby the vehicle papers can be taken to a police station within a reasonable period of a correctly delivered request is adequate.

We would also point out that the Commission proposal is entirely superfluous in the UK now that the MOT registration system is fully computerised and registration/MOT details are available to enforcement officers via fully portable data terminals. If the UK were to capitulate to this requirement then UK motorists would be fully entitled to question the recent investment in the systems required to implement ANPR, SORN and continuous insurance.

I think the point of this regulation would be that these standardised documents can also be accessed by enforcement officers in all member states. They don't have access to your system, so need to see the papers.

You can't tell a German police officer you've left your papers at home and will pop in tomorrow to show them...

Also, you've got your license plate identifying yourself, what extra trouble or privacy concern is it carrying a few pieces of paper with you? You also don't tell a police officer in the UK you've left your license plate at home and will pop in tomorrow to show it...

[Bowie69]

Brilliant work Nick, much appreciated.

Thanks!

[zoltan]

Not bad, but I have some doubts about this bit:

I think the point of this regulation would be that these standardised documents can also be accessed by enforcement officers in all member states. They don't have access to your system, so need to see the papers.

You can't tell a German police officer you've left your papers at home and will pop in tomorrow to show them...

Also, you've got your license plate identifying yourself, what extra trouble or privacy concern is it carrying a few pieces of paper with you? You also don't tell a police officer in the UK you've left your license plate at home and will pop in tomorrow to show it...

Sounds like a huge assumption that a roadside officer anywhere in the EU will be able to understand the technicalities of the roadworthiness documents relative to the vehicle in front of him/her. This document will be in how many languages? How big will this book be? How will a motorcyclist carry this book?

Never let it be said that the EU is shy of printing paperwork, paperwork and yet more paperwork!

[nickwilliams]

Not bad, but I have some doubts about this bit:

I think the point of this regulation would be that these standardised documents can also be accessed by enforcement officers in all member states. They don't have access to your system, so need to see the papers.

You can't tell a German police officer you've left your papers at home and will pop in tomorrow to show them...

Also, you've got your license plate identifying yourself, what extra trouble or privacy concern is it carrying a few pieces of paper with you? You also don't tell a police officer in the UK you've left your license plate at home and will pop in tomorrow to show it...

You need to be aware that there is a particular cultural issue with this in the UK, which is that a majority of UK citizens are against the idea of them having to carry any form of ID as part of normal daily life. One of the things the current government did when it came to power was to scrap a hugely expensive and overblown system which was intended to introduce ID cards in the face of stiff opposition from the general public.

Furthermore, the UK has just spent a prodigious amount of money on a fully computerised MOT database, which makes paper MOT certificates pretty much superfluous.

We are already required to carry various pieces of paper when travelling abroad and I don't suppose anyone will be too bothered about having to carry an MOT Certificate as well (although the fact that UK essentially no longer uses them may become a problem in due course). However, that's not the same as being required to carry one while travelling in the UK.

Nick.

[elbekko]

Sounds like a huge assumption that a roadside officer anywhere in the EU will be able to understand the technicalities of the roadworthiness documents relative to the vehicle in front of him/her. This document will be in how many languages? How big will this book be? How will a motorcyclist carry this book?

That's why they standardise things, if it's a standard document with a big green box, it's ok, if it's a big red box, not so ok. Not that hard to see without understanding what's written.

You need to be aware that there is a particular cultural issue with this in the UK, which is that a majority of UK citizens are against the idea of them having to carry any form of ID as part of normal daily life. One of the things the current government did when it came to power was to scrap a hugely expensive and overblown system which was intended to introduce ID cards in the face of stiff opposition from the general public.

Furthermore, the UK has just spent a prodigious amount of money on a fully computerised MOT database, which makes paper MOT certificates pretty much superfluous.

We are already required to carry various pieces of paper when travelling abroad and I don't suppose anyone will be too bothered about having to carry an MOT Certificate as well (although the fact that UK essentially no longer uses them may become a problem in due course). However, that's not the same as being required to carry one while travelling in the UK.

Nick.

Then I would assume that within the UK your roadworthiness certificate is always on board as they can just look it up in the database. Your license plate is on the vehicle, so all necessary documentation to look up your roadworthiness is there. This seems to be very much up to member state interpretation.

[ejparrott]

Anyone seen anything about it on the News? I'm just thinking, that were such a move be carried and the likes of Britpart (£50m/year) were to go, that would make massive news for the BBC would it not?

[simonr]

I spoke to a local newspaper hack - who said "I don't see what the problem is? My car isn't modified"

The equivalent of this thread on the Defender2 Forum had many contributors saying similar - "I have a shiny Tdci that is not modified - It's not my problem!".

I think much of the media will look at it in the same way - and they have no idea (nor interest) of the potential economic impact in the UK. The Newspaper person seemed surprised that anyone modified their cars or even fixed their own these days.

Don't think it will be making the front page any time soon - least not until its too late!

Si

[lawrence]

there was a piece about this on the sun website today, nothing massive but atleast it was there.

[ejparrott]

I just wondered, we were away on holiday last week, only discovering this on our return, and haven't had time to look at news in the meantime - too busy!

[UdderlyOffroad]

Hence why I’ve been saying we need to point out that if this is introduced it will affect all MOTs by pushing up their duration and therefore cost. That will interest the media.

Actually, the idea of involving someone like Clarkson or Wilson (and I appreciate the ‘marmite’ effect here) will be the only way to make political headway.

Personally, I think we need to orchestrate some kind of campaign (together with Pistonheads, et al), that people who have modified cars are not just 19 year old chavs racing their body-kit’d Saxos round car parks on a Saturday night.

As for local newspaper “journalists”…I’m sorry but any dealings I’ve ever had with any of them…well, I probably shouldn’t say anything else as this a public forum but suffice to say I shan’t bother wasting my time talking to them.

But I guess it was ever thus. As this is a Landie forum, there’s a fair bet some of you will be involved in shooting of one kind or another. Trying to interest the media at large in countryside issues in general meets with staggering indifference, and as soon as (shock horror) guns are mentioned, all bets are off. </rant>

My serious point is that is it worth looking, at, say, how some of the campaigns started by the Countryside Alliance, BASC etc are run and learning from that?

[Snagger]

All of the responses I have had back from the MEPs have been supportive bar one (the Labour lot haven't bothered to reply at all): East of England Lib Dem MEP Andrew Duff's case worker sent me a fob off letter claiming that "the effect on UK vehicles will be minimal, as our existing national requirements for the periodic inspection of vehicles is already very high; also, historic vehicles in the UK are exempt and we understand that this would continue to be the case." So, they haven't even read the proposal properly... That's one for everyone in the East to pile the pressure onto: www.andrewduff.eu

I'm not surprised by the journalistic response - the average journalist is a lazy, ill-informed, egocentric fool who cares little about what doesn't affect them personally. The only chance of getting public awareness and thus support for this is the motoring press, and as I said, the biggest player in that field, not just locally buy globally, is Jeremy Clarkson. And let's face it, he isn't shy of shouting off and criticising politicians or bureaucrats, especially EU ones. Whether you like him or not (most of the time I find him great), he is potentially our biggest weapon against the proposal.

[Simon Smith]

Bikers have already had mass protest rides on the UK motorways to protest about this, I was on the M25 one and there were literally thousands of bikes doing 20mph from Clacket Lane to Reigate. The press were obviously "got at" as the numbers they reported were only a fraction of the real number, and most decided to ignore it alltogether.

We need to get EVERYBODY who is affected to work together on this and make it so big that we can't be ignored. Not only Clarkson, but how about Prince Charles, after all his Aston has been converted to run on ethanol apparently, so even he will be affected by this if it goes through.

[Snagger]

It might be worth trying to contact Mark Evans, too, since he's a fan of modified vehicles (4x4 is Born, etc...). I've been having a look around the Top Gear pages on the BBC website to find a contact email address, but with no luck. Anyone got any ideas?

[UdderlyOffroad]

http://www.markevans.co.uk/mark-evans-contact.php

[Landy-Novice]

It might be worth trying to contact Mark Evans, too, since he's a fan of modified vehicles (4x4 is Born, etc...). I've been having a look around the Top Gear pages on the BBC website to find a contact email address, but with no luck. Anyone got any ideas?

this??

http://www.topgear.com/uk/contact-us

[Gazzar]

Just sent an email:

Dear Top Gear,

Our Beloved EU has seen fit to try to ban ALL modifications from original Factory Spec, not only for new cars, but retrospectively for older historic and mundane cars. All non-works modifications from independent race teams will have to be reversed if the car is ever to go on the road.

No more non-works Subaru, privateer rally Escorts, no more Hi-Luxes converted to cross the English Channel!

It will probably mean the end of the small car manufacturer (no more Atoms) as they won’t be able to manage the paperwork to grant approval.

Please help to stop this, in the interests of the British Motoring Heritage we all enjoy.

Regards,

[Nigelw]

I am new on here but not new to Land Rovers and have done more engine/gearbox swaps and modding in general to all of my vehicles from RRCs to series 3s.

Maybe Cameron/Clegg could go one better, allow and implement changes, then grant official asylum for all those vehicles and manufacturers it would affect, therefore keeping everyone happy?

I write in jest, because as far as I am concerned, its almost in place now, this writing of letters and appealing is wonderful but futile, I am not saying stop, but I know how it works, they tell us of the proposals and then allow us to vent our steam telling us to voice our objections to calm us down and make us think we will be fighting our corner and that we can make a difference but the long and the short of it is that the proposal is just the warning for what is coming, I don't vote, I don't care anymore, they do what gets them the best payday end of, look at Tony Blair, ruined the economy and took the great away from Britain and then swanned off into the sunset with a bigger fuller bank account. I drive my car as standard as possible these days as its easier for parts in what ever continent I happen to be in. Get used to the proposals, thats what they ARE going to implement in the coming years, not overnight but within 5yrs to allow for change and investments and to give owners time to put their car back to stock.

If they don't do it this time it really is only a matter of time before it rears its ugly head again.

[zoltan]

I am new on here but not new to Land Rovers and have done more engine/gearbox swaps and modding in general to all of my vehicles from RRCs to series 3s.

Maybe Cameron/Clegg could go one better, allow and implement changes, then grant official asylum for all those vehicles and manufacturers it would affect, therefore keeping everyone happy?

I write in jest, because as far as I am concerned, its almost in place now, this writing of letters and appealing is wonderful but futile, I am not saying stop, but I know how it works, they tell us of the proposals and then allow us to vent our steam telling us to voice our objections to calm us down and make us think we will be fighting our corner and that we can make a difference but the long and the short of it is that the proposal is just the warning for what is coming, I don't vote, I don't care anymore, they do what gets them the best payday end of, look at Tony Blair, ruined the economy and took the great away from Britain and then swanned off into the sunset with a bigger fuller bank account. I drive my car as standard as possible these days as its easier for parts in what ever continent I happen to be in. Get used to the proposals, thats what they ARE going to implement in the coming years, not overnight but within 5yrs to allow for change and investments and to give owners time to put their car back to stock.

If they don't do it this time it really is only a matter of time before it rears its ugly head again.

I disagree that rolling over and taking it is the only recourse. If we all make enough noise and present a sensible case we will get where we want to be. Where is your Dunkirk spirit?

[Nigelw]

I disagree that rolling over and taking it is the only recourse. If we all make enough noise and present a sensible case we will get where we want to be. Where is your Dunkirk spirit?

I disagree that rolling over and taking it is the only recourse. If we all make enough noise and present a sensible case we will get where we want to be. Where is your Dunkirk spirit?

Zoltan, I have no spirit of Dunkirk, I am just being completely realistic in knowing that in the south of Ireland they already have the completely automated testing stations where the car travels along the rails and has all the procedures as per the DOE or NCT test including the shock absoorber test whereby the car is shaken violently around on its suspension and if it proves defective then fail and take it back within 14 days fixed and thats paddy land!!!! I lost the spirit and belief in government doing right by its people a long time ago, remember married tax allowances? Remember the days when the most you could borrow on a mortgage was 25% of your net earnings not a mortgage based on two incomes his and hers? Remember when it was the government who set interest rates not banks? Shall I continue ok how about the privatisation of every single service provided within Britain and also to include policing soon, and to completely privatize health care? Why fight the inevitable? Move to Russia, we can still carry on modding and building, maintaining our own cars and they will be a whole lot safer than the rest.

Show me more instances than I have you where the government has actually done more good than harm please sir.

[q-rover]

He lost it on the beach.

[Nigelw]

He lost it on the beach.

Not quite WW2 was a few years before the advent of my birth but I like yr thinking.

I have just witnessed too many incidents of improper and unmanageable legislation, and not to mention the hundreds of petitions drawn up by residents of areas that need bypassing or greatly improved road improvements ie, the A14 in East Anglia, it should have been a motorway 15-20 years ago with the traffic volumes but it was only 6yrs ago they began a slight restructure to straighten out the haughley bends, nice job saw it a lot on my commute but it did not really solve the traffic movement to one of the largest container ports in Europe did it? The A140 Ipswich to Norwich trunk road? Another joke, single carriageway all bar 9miles of its 70 mile length and thats a major trunk with countless roundabouts slapped in the middle of it. Again petition after petition by hauliers and general public yielded what exactly? Nothing.

Should I take some uppers to remove my depression now?

[dailysleaze]

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/press-reports-on-ec-proposals-on-mot-tests-are-incorrect/

I love the quote "The Commission is writing separately to all the newspapers concerned, none of which checked the facts with us before publication."

[nickwilliams]

I think this confirms that our problem is more to do with the DfT's interpretation of the EU proposals than with the proposals themselves. Whether this is incompetence or due to some hidden agenda is impossible to say, and largely irrelevant since in either case it means that it's the UK Members of Parliament we should be making our case to, not MEP's or UKIP.

I've had no response from DfT. If I get time I'll try and chase them up today, unless someone else would like to volunteer to do it.

Nick.

[Nigelw]

Nick, I want to applaud you for your sterling work and commitment.

I hope it pays off and that it is going to be rejected as unnecessary meddling by the PM and his staff. The DfT are useless at the best of times and are another one of those departments that really is only interested in its own agendas. If it affected them infringing on their vehicles and hobbies, or if it were someone like simonr who was a close friend and was about to go bust overnight due to this rubbish then maybe they would be the first to stand against it.

I am wrong in a way, I have posted my own views on how we are all being shafted by the government either openly or by the backdoor, I have added my name to the petitions ina bid to try and help stop what, if it is brought in will cripple a dying/dead economy and damage a lot of peoples lives, not just the drivers of carefully modified cars but the industries that supply them with the parts to do it, and so far we have had a fair system in which it allowed and even helped us to be safe about our modifications and help to make us more aware of the safety critical mods that may be overlooked for the sake of appearance or it being inadequate after other changes had been made.

Carry on and lets see what comes from our fearless leaders.

[UdderlyOffroad]

Remember when it was the government who set interest rates not banks?

Show me more instances than I have you where the government has actually done more good than harm please sir.

It's the bank of England that sets the interest rate, not 'the banks'. And separating monetary policy from fiscal policy is pretty much covered in about the first lesson in basic economics classes.

http://blogs.ec.euro...-are-incorrect/

I love the quote "The Commission is writing separately to all the newspapers concerned, none of which checked the facts with us before publication."

I think this confirms that our problem is more to do with the DfT's interpretation of the EU proposals than with the proposals themselves. Whether this is incompetence or due to some hidden agenda is impossible to say, and largely irrelevant since in either case it means that it's the UK Members of Parliament we should be making our case to, not MEP's or UKIP.

Trouble is, will MPs even get to see this on the floor of the house? Or will it be passed into law via the medium of Statutory Instruments (SI) by unelected and unaccountable lawyers and mandarins at the DfT?

I guess some of the bitterness on this thread stems from the fact that we see no need for the EU to be legislating on this or many other things? When did member states give up this much sovereignty and did the electorate get a say in it? In the UK at least, the answer is definitely no. A referendum ten+ years before I was born on entering "the common market" does not count.