Nigelw Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Poll, vote and tell us why you would rather have one or the other? Trick suspension with massive travel or transverse diff locks and medium travel suspension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Trick suspension - ie having ground force on tyres and traction help, but cross axle = no go Diff locker in the rear makes a HUGE difference, so much so that many are dissapointed with the addition of a friont - not 2 x as good ! Combo of sensible suspension mods and diff locks beats trick suspension, some of which looks impressive but isn't much help in real world ... Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I went for long travel (well reasonably long travel) because I made a bit of a project to get a better balance between front and rear. It's interesting to see how far you can go with open diffs when you can keep the wheels on the ground and then drive slow enough to give them a chance to find some traction. Cleverer folk here than me - but I'd say both have merit and combined together would logically give the best of both worlds. One thing to add: is that on a Land Rover when you make modifications to the suspension you only need to make small changes at the back to get a lot of travel - but need to make big changes at the front to get the same amount of travel. This means that most modified suspension leads to an unbalanced suspension. But we all know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke keeper of badger Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 a good example on youtube to help you decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 The 90 with a very drooped wheel and no locker, going backwards.... made me think twice about the next time I use some beans in reverse for sure, the trailing arm doesn't look so strong at that angle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I seldom use beans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I seldom use beans.Not making a point there by the way !You can see in that clip how his 90's travel isn't balanced. The back wheel drops but because there is no movement at the front the truck doesn't settle it's weight evenly over all the wheels. His modifications are probably working against him because of that. He has effectively made himself more vulnerable to being cross axeled, exacerbated by using that many revs. To judge long travel suspension there I'd like to have seen a truck where the weight could settle evenly over the 4 wheels, and it crawling up. Not saying it would make it - but it'd be a better demonstration of what can be achieved with open diff's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Having been with and without lockers, I'd say lockers every time. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 In most situations the majority of people will get into offroad, a locked centre diff and a selectable rear locker form a pretty good compromise to enable most obstacles to be overcome. The fact that you can do so with stiffer. less flexible suspension has obvious benefits for the 99% of the time we all spend on-road! On a purpose built off-road machine things get more complicated. All I can say is that as the going gets tougher in my experience the most useful traction aid is a lockable FRONT diff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Brock Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Both is best IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I have very long travel suspension AND dual lockers, wouldn't want it any other way. But if I had to spend money on one OR the other it would be lockers. If youér gonna spend more money do both, but don't waste your money on creating a hugely unbalanced suspension that has massive rear axle articulation and nothing on the front. Pay lots of attention to the front first, then the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I have stayed with a fairly standard height , but soft initialy suspension , The maxi drives definately make the biggest difference, the biggest difference is made by the rear locker, the front is pretty much only usable in a straight line either forward or reverse. The extra tractive force with all three diffs locked is quite amazing , 54 tonne on dirt and even 44 in snow on occasions !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtyninety Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I have stayed with a fairly standard height , but soft initialy suspension , The maxi drives definately make the biggest difference, the biggest difference is made by the rear locker, the front is pretty much only usable in a straight line either forward or reverse. The extra tractive force with all three diffs locked is quite amazing , 54 tonne on dirt and even 44 in snow on occasions !! How have you tested the tractive force? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 How have you tested the tractive force? push starting a two trailer 60tonn+ roadtrain on dirt, towing 54ton low loader(Australia) , and various artics (loaded) in snow up hill , etc etc , not very scientific , but would have been impossible without all the diffs locked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I voted against the popular opinion! My reason is this. If you have four wheels in contact with the ground, you have more traction than less wheels plus diff locks. Having both is the best of all worlds however. The bigger question is, what counts as medium or long travel suspension? A standard Land Rover Shock has 9" of travel. Unfortunately, most of the 'extreme' shocks on the market still only have 9". Terrafirma are a good example. Their +5" Shocks have just over 9" travel and a body (compressed length) which is 5" longer than standard - so don't actually give you any more articulation than standard - go figure! On my 110 I run Fox Shox with 14" travel. I'm almost bored of people asking if I have diff locks! (I don't) It manages to go some surprising places. The reason I say 'unfortunately' above is that people buy 'extreme' shocks and trick suspension - and t barely makes any difference. They buy diff-locks and see a huge difference - so lockers appear better! I don't think it requires particularly 'trick' suspension either. It just needs suspension which is well set up. Good quality shocks & appropriate spring rates are by far the most important. I have a Suzuki Jimny built with very trick suspension with 14" travel front & rear, but the front & rear are perfectly balanced, as are rates and damping coefficients. It does have lockers - but to date, I have only once used one of the lockers and that was on a gully crossing where it just ran out of travel, leaving 2 wheels dangling. Sorry if this is a bit off-topic, but my point really is just that having 4 wheels on the ground beats a difflock under many circumstances. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Agree with Simon... I 'lane with a couple of guys with modded G's I go further with less fuss pretty much every time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Good post Simon, you've articulated (poor pun intended) what I'd intended. Four wheels on the ground, with some weight on them, has to count towards maximising traction. Where the surface gives insufficient traction and brings out the shortcomings of a diff then that's where a diff lock comes in. To put part of it another way: a diff locked car with all its wheels on the ground will drive better than one with wheels in the air, and is amazing how far it will get with open diffs in the same situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 As an aside : I have the ome +5" shocks that Gwyn sells - anyone know off hand what the travel is on those ? I checked when I fitted them but can't for the life of me remember.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Except that all the trick suspension in the world won't drive you out of a V gulley when you're on two wheels against one side of the gulley but lockers will Mind you, I probably shouldn't have dropped into the bottom of it in the first place Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Setting up suspension well takes a lot of time/skill/trial-and-error. Diff-locks can just be put in and then they're working. So I guess from a practicality point of view they have it. Personally I would have a locker in the rear and standard suspension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I agree with that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Except that all the trick suspension in the world won't drive you out of a V gulley when you're on two wheels against one side of the gulley but lockers will Mind you, I probably shouldn't have dropped into the bottom of it in the first place Mo It sounds like you weren't getting much drive out of the roof then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Ranged Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I'm saying suspension and the reason I say this is because of confidence, not for the argument of wheels on the ground = traction, this is partially true but fails when you consider ground conditions especially in the case of a coil drop away truck like the D90 in the vid,... the left hand rear was a good example of this the weight of the wheel and half the axle wasn't enough for the ground conditions with out braking loose and spinning up... that aside his suspension wasn't balanced For most people the biggest gain offroad is confidence lol yea I know we are all offroad demons but the reality is when the truck "flops" into something you get nervous especially if you feel the back wheel lift... what is your reaction you take your foot of the throttle... you loose your momentum,. you now have to move off so you require grip this is where the diff lock wins Now nicely balance extended suspension... you roll in the truck rolls gently as the drop of the front axle is shared evenly by the front and rear suspension you have time to "feel" this happening and make the decision for throttle control that keeps the truck rolling through the marginal grip Momentum will get you through that... X axle where you have two wheels in the air., it gets you up that greasy hill,. through the bog all the situations where the locker worked, the catch is you will only use speed when you are confident Good suspension will get you through those bits where everyone with unbalanced suspension is backing off because they are scared of rolling lol Now this opens the whole issue of how to balance suspension LOL and is why in just about ever time I am asked the "suspension vs lockers" question I say lockers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 It sounds like you weren't getting much drive out of the roof then ? I reckon O'teunico could sort that ! Someone, somewhere at sometime in offroad motoring history has surely tried bolting pto or electrically driven wheels on the roof and sides of their truck to maintain traction in extreme terrain, and our Spanish Internet Wizard is just the man to track them down.Lol I'm voting for both suspension and difflocks. Difflocks or good Traction Control alone without a balanced , articulate suspension system, can on occasion maintain progress to the point where the vehicle loses balance and has a good lie down, as more than a handful of Disco 3 and 4 pilots have discovered. The same thing can happen if you have both traction and articulation of course, but you can traverse much knarlier terrain before it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I reckon difflocks will get you further than any practical suspension mod on a landrover , the suspension was always good , especially when compared with other makes. But was limited to the amount of grip of the wheel with least traction , this is moved to the wheel with best traction by fitting a difflock . Difflocks also afford you the luxury of being able to attack at a very low speed , so that things happen slowly , including roll over (to start with anyway). The low speed also aids traction as tyres are able to conform with the terrain better. I usually use centre and rear difflock to try and get further, and then engage the front to reverse out if i dont want to try to the point of winching . JMHo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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