Ring.....er....

[Chicken Drumstick]

Just 're read from here https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles it would appear it has change slightly since I last read it but it still states you need at least two original parts from a drive train list and either the original chassis/ monocoque or a new original spec chassis/monocoque (you need a recipt to prove this) to retain the vehicles original registration.

Mike

Thanks for the link, although that isn't conclusive.

Nowhere on that page does it say you can't replace like for like. It just says 'original'. But original what? Specification or the actual physical part it left the factory with? The latter I would suggest would be unprovable in either case.

The rebuilt vehicle page also doesn't list the table being referred too. That seems to be under the Radically Altered section:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

But again, this is pretty vague.

"Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame."

For example, what is radically altered? What does it mean?

If you take this at face value, then any Defender with a weld in cage is "Radically altered" and no longer has an unmodified chassis. So if this paragraph is true, any Defender, actually any car with a weld in rollcage is not entitled to keeps it's registration number.

As it reads to keep your registration number you don't need 8 points, you need an unmodified chassis and 3 points from the other categories.

Interestingly it is written as:

"Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)"

So even a Defender with a Richards or Marsland chassis does not meet "direct from the manufacturer" so should be on a Q plate

And nothing is defined either. e.g.

"Steering assembly - original"

What does this mean? Where does the steering assembly start and finish, is it just the column, the rack, the box, all of it? how about the drag links, pitman arm, steering wheel, track rod ends and so on?

"Engine - original"

I think this one is an even bigger question. Where does an engine start and end, what bits are "engine"? Is the exhaust? How about the intake system?

Heads? Cam. What if you stroke a 3.5 V8 to 4.3 but retain the same block, is it still the same engine? What if you convert an 8v engine to 16v with a head swap and retain the block, is it still the same engine?

[ejparrott]

It is a big problem, and I think that's the reason nobody knows when you phone them up, and nobody commits an answer to a webpage.

For example, my 88 had badly rusted springs on the back axle when we bought her and they had to be replaced...does that mean she lost her registration?

My 109, threw its rear diff...Salisbury of course...wrecked the case..so I scrapped it and 'borrowed' the case from my project 109 to get me back on the road...does that mean they both lost their reg that day?!!

Minefield barely begins to cover it....

There are obvious examples....90's and 110's trying to pass as Series for example, but for those of use who tinker and subtly modifiy.....

[Daan]

The way I read the rules, its not a big problem at all; the only parts that are linked to your V5 are the engine and chassis; everything else you can change for the same component without problems or legality issues. If you couldn't swap bits any more, all garages go down the pan and we all have to buy new cars!

Its only when you start butchering existing bits to fit parts not intended for it; axle swaps, different engine and gearbox etc.

The rules are only there for the modding brigade and the dodgy stealing geezers.

The rest has nothing to worry about.

Daan

[western]

Thanks for the link, although that isn't conclusive.

Nowhere on that page does it say you can't replace like for like. It just says 'original'. But original what? Specification or the actual physical part it left the factory with? The latter I would suggest would be unprovable in either case.

The rebuilt vehicle page also doesn't list the table being referred too. That seems to be under the Radically Altered section:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles

But again, this is pretty vague.

"Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame."

For example, what is radically altered? What does it mean?

If you take this at face value, then any Defender with a weld in cage is "Radically altered" and no longer has an unmodified chassis. So if this paragraph is true, any Defender, actually any car with a weld in rollcage is not entitled to keeps it's registration number.

As it reads to keep your registration number you don't need 8 points, you need an unmodified chassis and 3 points from the other categories.

Interestingly it is written as:

"Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)"

So even a Defender with a Richards or Marsland chassis does not meet "direct from the manufacturer" so should be on a Q plate

And nothing is defined either. e.g.

"Steering assembly - original"

What does this mean? Where does the steering assembly start and finish, is it just the column, the rack, the box, all of it? how about the drag links, pitman arm, steering wheel, track rod ends and so on?

"Engine - original"

I think this one is an even bigger question. Where does an engine start and end, what bits are "engine"? Is the exhaust? How about the intake system?

Heads? Cam. What if you stroke a 3.5 V8 to 4.3 but retain the same block, is it still the same engine? What if you convert an 8v engine to 16v with a head swap and retain the block, is it still the same engine?

With regard to the bold bit above a Marsland chassis is a genuine LR chassis as they both buy them from GKN who make the Defender chassis for LR.

if a chassis change is done with no other parts changed/replaced the reg number stays.

most of the DVLA info relates to kit cars not factory built road cars. those already have type approval where required.

[Chicken Drumstick]

With regard to the bold bit above a Marsland chassis is a genuine LR chassis as they both buy them from GKN who make the Defender chassis for LR.

if a chassis change is done with no other parts changed/replaced the reg number stays.

most of the DVLA info relates to kit cars not factory built road cars. those already have type approval where required.

I don't disagree with you. Just taking the information on the direct gov site literally, as that is how it is printed. It clearly states direct from manufacturer (although doesn't define who the manufacture needs to be). i.e. is Land Rover the manufacture in question, as they make/made the vehicle. Or a 3rd party company who LR also have bought from?

Kit cars have their own page. The page linked is specifically at Rebuilt or Radically Altered.

Again, not disputing your common sense and logic, as I totally agree with you. But that isn't how it is written on the direct.gov site.

[reb78]

I don't disagree with you. Just taking the information on the direct gov site literally, as that is how it is printed. It clearly states direct from manufacturer (although doesn't define who the manufacture needs to be). i.e. is Land Rover the manufacture in question, as they make/made the vehicle. Or a 3rd party company who LR also have bought from?

Kit cars have their own page. The page linked is specifically at Rebuilt or Radically Altered.

Again, not disputing your common sense and logic, as I totally agree with you. But that isn't how it is written on the direct.gov site.

Even if you take it literally, it could be interpreted in different ways. You've said yourself that they don't define manufacturer in this case. For all we know, that could mean a new chassis from anyone manufacturing them to the same specifications as the original unit. I think Daan has summed up the real interpretation of the rules in post 28 above.

[missingsid]

lets not forget rebuilt vehicles before SVA came in to being did NOT have any checks other than the points system, , so some maybe pre SVA/IVA & therefore legal.

Can't see that, it allowed a shortened RRC chassis Series hibred to be registered as a RR special without testing. It never as far as I could see allowed it to be registered a a Series or tax exempt unless the RRC was tax exempt. Ringers were still procecuted. That is why I scrapped a pre SVA hibred as the builder had registered as a Series not a RR special under the RRC reg number.

You were never allowed to graft another vehicles chassis number on to a completely different type one, unless it was a new replacement but even that was doubtful back then. I rember visiting Eric Cheney and other off road frame makers and baulking at the idea of stamping a number from a log book only to make it road legal.

Marc

[Snagger]

Before I conducted my rebuild, I spoke to the DVLA department relevant to the VIN rules. They stated very plainly and simply that sub-assemblies like engines, transmissions, axles ans such can be repaired and refurbished with new or second hand parts, but the original main component must be used for it to count as original. So, that basically means casings. As far as other parts go, they said that service replacement parts and consumables don't count, so you don't lose points for replacing them. In the case of the suspension, they confirmed that this includes fixings, dampers and bushes, but also springs. When I clarified with them that on Series LRs that constitutes the entire system they said that the rules still permit their replacement with service replacement parts and the points to be retained. They even confirmed that parabolic springs retain the points as they're a direct swap of a service replaceable part. Strange, but there it is.

So,for example, you can't swap the axles out for an identical pair, but you can refurbish them with all new mechanical inners. Likewise engines and transmissions, and I assume that's on the logic that a rebuild usually uses most of the original components with replacements of items like bearings and seals and not normally all of the shafts, gears, hubs and so on.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Before I conducted my rebuild, I spoke to the DVLA department relevant to the VIN rules. They stated very plainly and simply that sub-assemblies like engines, transmissions, axles ans such can be repaired and refurbished with new or second hand parts, but the original main component must be used for it to count as original. So, that basically means casings. As far as other parts go, they said that service replacement parts and consumables don't count, so you don't lose points for replacing them. In the case of the suspension, they confirmed that this includes fixings, dampers and bushes, but also springs. When I clarified with them that on Series LRs that constitutes the entire system they said that the rules still permit their replacement with service replacement parts and the points to be retained. They even confirmed that parabolic springs retain the points as they're a direct swap of a service replaceable part. Strange, but there it is.

So,for example, you can't swap the axles out for an identical pair, but you can refurbish them with all new mechanical inners. Likewise engines and transmissions, and I assume that's on the logic that a rebuild usually uses most of the original components with replacements of items like bearings and seals and not normally all of the shafts, gears, hubs and so on.

That might be what they told you, but I don't think that can be the case. Let's face it, if you buy a 40 year old Land Rover, how the smeg do you know if the axle casings on it are original anyhow?

What if you have a diff go and punch through the casing... would that mean you'd opt to scrap the car rather than replace the axle, but be at risk of it then losing its registration number.

[CwazyWabbit]

So based on the info Snagger was given if we take a typical rebuild of an old 90.

New chassis

Disco axles to upgrade the brakes

Engine upgrade to TDI

Power steering added

Replacement gearbox and transfer box (exchange from Ashcrofts or newer ones, even if you don't do this it's quite likely they have been change in the past anyway)

Suspension replaced with new parts.

You'd get 5 points from chassis as new replacement

0 points from axles

0 points from engine

0 points from transmission as even if an exchange from ashcrofts for same type it's a different casing

0 points as steering upgrade

2 points for suspension

So it would need a new ID unless you stayed with non power steering or kept the drum braked original axles.

[UdderlyOffroad]

That might be what they told you, but I don't think that can be the case. Let's face it, if you buy a 40 year old Land Rover, how the smeg do you know if the axle casings on it are original anyhow?

What if you have a diff go and punch through the casing... would that mean you'd opt to scrap the car rather than replace the axle, but be at risk of it then losing its registration number.

I think this thread is descending rapidly into IVA police territory.

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

Report dodgy ads to Ebay / IVACS - and for the sake of the rest of us, keep your mods on your truck compliant with the '8 points' system whilst not obsessing about minuitae of the wording.

The slightly ambiguous wording is, as far as I'm concerned a good thing, as it allows some application of intelligence. There are plenty of countries where this is all locked down and controlled, and the tiniest mod must be reported to the authorities and tested. The UK isn't (yet) like that, and pushing the DVSA for clarification on these regulations will only result in one outcome, and we'll all moan like hell when that happens.

[Retroanaconda]

Looking at this I am thinking my 110 when it finally goes together will fall into the 'dubious' category.

New chassis

Different axles (though to original spec - save for the rear brakes)

Different engine

Different gearbox

New suspension/steering etc.

Body doesn't count.

As far as I'm concerned the suspension is OK as it's just all new parts of the same spec system (same goes for steering), the axles are OK because they're just standard Land Rover axles, the gearbox is OK as even though it'll be an R380 rather than an LT77 it's a Land Rover box still. The engine obviously will be a declared change, but that's it. That is the only traceable part anyway really, unless Land Rover recorded the axle/gearbox numbers when they built the things?

Yes it will effectively be a "new" vehicle with only some body panels being the original bits of metal that came off the production line with the car but it's not like I'm trying to pass it of as a tax exempt vehicle - I've just refurbished an old car with some new bits and some bits off other vehicles. It'll still be liable for road tax as a 1993 car. And the engine will be the only non-standard feature as far as I'm concerned - everything else will still be Land Rover parts as fitted to the 110 model during its production life. The way I see it it's no different from say a late-eighties 110 which had an official Land Rover 200Tdi re-power kit and then another official Land Rover gearbox replacement with a stumpy R380.

As above we have it fairly easy in the UK at the moment, there are plenty of our EU neighbours who are very restricted as to what they can do.

[missingsid]

Whilst I agree with the comments when I last looked at the DVLA information there were two differnt points systems, one was Radically Modified as discussed previously but the other was RebuiltVehicle which only requires the original chassis (alledgedly but not confirmed roll cage mounts are OK as classic motorsport requires it and they add rigidity) and two major items Suspension, Transmission, Axles, Engine or Steering.

As far as I can see the differentiator for Radically Modified is a chassis mod such as shortening or extending?

Marc.

[Snagger]

The rules for radical alteration and rebuild are the same - the same parts score the same point and you need the same score of 8. Realistically, how many rebuilds get entirely new everything? Most use the original axles, transmission and engine, though many chose to alter the suspension (typically just a lift, but sometimes more). Even if you replace the springs with a different rate, the rules as explained to me would allow the suspension points to be carried over as long as you retained the original arms and rods. If you want to be driving away a completely new vehicle in essence, then you can have your original mechanical units refurbished - I have done just that with Turner Engineering on my RRC engine; they were a little surprised at the request but completely accommodating at no extra cost; they refurbished my engine with the original head, block and shafts and as many other serviceable items rather than sending an identical exchange unit so that I can keep the vehicle as original as possible. Ashcroft said they would do the same with any transmission assemblies I want done. So, there is no need to swap your assemblies for non-original unless you're doing it cheaper with second hand parts, in which case you have a "bitsa" rather than an original vehicle, and shouldn't the ID be in question if that is the case?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Whilst I agree with the comments when I last looked at the DVLA information there were two differnt points systems, one was Radically Modified as discussed previously but the other was RebuiltVehicle which only requires the original chassis (alledgedly but not confirmed roll cage mounts are OK as classic motorsport requires it and they add rigidity) and two major items Suspension, Transmission, Axles, Engine or Steering.

As far as I can see the differentiator for Radically Modified is a chassis mod such as shortening or extending?

Marc.

It used to state "welded". But that's even more vague. But would certainly include weld in cages. (not that this is my point of view on the matter, or my opinion, just stating what it used to say).

Personally I'm not convinced swapping a 2.25 petrol for a Tdi is really a radical mod. The Tdi shares the same engine mounting points, mates directly the gearbox and the main block and crank are from the 2.25 anyhow. Just with some evolved and refined parts.

Fitting a Td5 or a V8 would be far more radical.

Same goes for axles. Is a 90 axle really radically different from a Series? IMO no. The diffs are interchangable, they are essentially the same axle, in design and type. Nothing radically different about them, just mild evolutionary steps. But you get that on production vehicles, such as fitting a 4 pin P38 derived rear axle on late 110's instead of the Salisbury. This is more radical.

[Chicken Drumstick]

The rules for radical alteration and rebuild are the same - the same parts score the same point and you need the same score of 8. Realistically, how many rebuilds get entirely new everything? Most use the original axles, transmission and engine, though many chose to alter the suspension (typically just a lift, but sometimes more). Even if you replace the springs with a different rate, the rules as explained to me would allow the suspension points to be carried over as long as you retained the original arms and rods.

This might be what some power crazed VOSA/DVLA bod might claim. But I think it isn't accurate or correct. You do not need to retain suspension arms and rods to keep it original. For starters they don't have any way of ID'ing or age locating them. So it is impossible to tell where or when they come from.

Lets look at the table again:

Part Points Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5 Suspension (front and back) - original 2 Axles (both) - original 2 Transmission - original 2 Steering assembly - original 2 Engine - original 1

So lets say you have a 1985 90 you want to refresh and use off road. Chassis is 100% perfect, so you retain it without mods.

5 points.

You however want a flexy long travel suspension kit. That uses cranked trailing links, castor correct radius arms and new shock mounts. What you are saying is:

Suspension 0 points.

Axles. Well you want to ditch the rear drums and opt for a Disco 24 spline axle. You swap the front over so as to not have a mix and match of 10 and 24 spline.

Axles 0 points.

Transmission. The LT77 is knackered and it's just so much easier to get an R380 rebuilt these days (or maybe you opt for an auto?).

Transmission 0 points.

Steering assembly. Well it has been mentioned that even a new steering box would invalidate this, which is pretty crazy. Lets assume you do nothing for now with the steering (assuming an aftermarket steering wheel doesn't count as part of the assembly).

Steering 2 points.

Engine. Well sadly the stock engine is a tired 2.5 NAD. So you want to swap in a 2.5TD, 2.5 TDI or maybe a V8. In any case, they are all different engines.

Engine 0 points.

This means this fairly normal 90 retaining it's original chassis and bodywork and essentially is still a factory 90 only scores 7 and would obviously lose it's registration???

But wait, maybe it didn't have PAS.

Steering 0 points.

We are now down to 5 overall.

But wait, you decide you do want a weld in cage. You also want to extend the cage to form a semi space frame front end to mount the wings on, so as to make it stronger off road. It will still retain the standard body work and look original. But oh hell...

Chassis 0 points.

So taking it as written (which I don't believe is the full story). But doing this, you could turn a vehicle that is still largely original and not radical by any means. But it "could" score 0?

On a side note, how on earth can steering assembly we worth 2 points while an engine only 1 on the table? That makes little sense anyhow.

To further this. Maybe you want to build a road going track day car. Say a BWW 328.

Chassis. Again cage, or would adding a sun roof count as radically modified?

Suspension. You go for a coil over setup. Obviously this does not retain the standard spring location points. And may even have adjustable shock mounts.

Axles. Does an IRS rwd drive vehicle really have an axle? Ignoring this debatable bit. You swap in a LSD, change the CW&P ratio and maybe alter the hubs to mount larger discs on.

Transmission. Would adding a quick shifter count here? different ratios?

Steering. You ditch the PAS or opt for a quicker rack.

Engine. Ported head. High lift cams, Double Vanos intake swap. Or swap in a latter 3.0 unit.

I have no idea where something like this would fit with the 'radically altered' table. To me it would still seem to be the same vehicle. But reading it how it is written, it would appear it would be on shakey ground to retain it's registration too.

[jeremy996]

UK law is complex. The statute law is one thing, regulations and guidance is another but there is also case law. At the end of the day only a decided case, appealed as far as you can is definitive.

From my experience, adding a roll cage was not seen by one DVLA/VOSA office as a radical modification, as the original chassis was still identifiable. Whether that would hold good in another office is a moot point. (Road registered rally car).

Going back to the rules, the DVLA are interested in vehicle identity for taxation purposes, so taking liberties with "age", engine capacity or body type is likely to get you in hot water.

Whatever you do, document it and keep the invoices - most officials want to get the the 'right' answer and are not out to make it difficult for you out of spite, (although, having built kit cars, I can think of a few exceptions!).

[Retroanaconda]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/278783/V627X1_270913.pdf

I've not seen this form before, a new one maybe?

From this page:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

Seems to imply you need to fill that out if re-building a vehicle. Not that it would be a problem as you just fill out the axle numbers for the ones you are fitting to the vehicle and say that they came from it originally.

I notice they also ask what happens to the original parts you don't re-use - for example a scrapped chassis or a knackered pair of axles.

[ejparrott]

errr.....

(Retention of vehicle registration number may be considered but only if the details prior to alteration are held at DVLA.)

[missingsid]

The rules for radical alteration and rebuild are the same - the same parts score the same point and you need the same score of 8. Realistically, how many rebuilds get entirely new everything? Most use the original axles, transmission and engine, though many chose to alter the suspension (typically just a lift, but sometimes more). Even if you replace the springs with a different rate, the rules as explained to me would allow the suspension points to be carried over as long as you retained the original arms and rods. If you want to be driving away a completely new vehicle in essence, then you can have your original mechanical units refurbished - I have done just that with Turner Engineering on my RRC engine; they were a little surprised at the request but completely accommodating at no extra cost; they refurbished my engine with the original head, block and shafts and as many other serviceable items rather than sending an identical exchange unit so that I can keep the vehicle as original as possible. Ashcroft said they would do the same with any transmission assemblies I want done. So, there is no need to swap your assemblies for non-original unless you're doing it cheaper with second hand parts, in which case you have a "bitsa" rather than an original vehicle, and shouldn't the ID be in question if that is the case?

My comment was based on the info on the DVLA page so they are not the same unless the DVLA don't know their own information!

[pat_pending]

The whole issue is pretty much unique to Land Rovers.

The fact so many bitsa built, heavily modified and downright fake vehicles are driving about without attracting any attention, suggests to me, the authorities...

Don't care.

Have more important things to deal with.

Don't have the resources/knowledge to investigate.

All of the above.

So carry on swapping engines, gearbox's and axles with impunity, nothing will happen.

I understand peoples concerns when they see a series II no' plate screwed on a galv' chassis td5 90 but be aware of the risk of unintended consequences when you start shouting about it.

[Eightpot]

What a quality car merchant - they've put it back up for sale, still as a '68 Defender

Think I'll have some 1952 number plates made up for my car, then I won't need to get an MOT or tax.

[CwazyWabbit]

What a quality car merchant - they've put it back up for sale, still as a '68 Defender

Think I'll have some 1952 number plates made up for my car, then I won't need to get an MOT or tax.

...erm what do ANPR cameras do when they scan a numberplate that isn't on the system? I assume it's ignored as it's most likely a non UK plate ....

So just put EP1 on as your plates

[ejparrott]

I thought ANPR flagged it actually. Interesting to note, as we found out after our accident, the ANPR cameras you see warnings off at petrol stations, are not linked in and do not report to the police national database. The guy that caused our smash on the M5 three years ago was driving an un-taxed and un-insured car and I kept saying, how did he manage to get petrol when there were ANPR cameras at forecourts? Then I found out, they're only there to identify numberplates in the case of a drive-off, so the police weren't being notified of his presence on the road...

He was also an over-stayer, so we did the police a favour big time! ... I'm still suffering for it that's the only down side

[Eightpot]

ANPR is of no use if a reg is fictional/cloned as they've still no way of identifying the driver, unless they can see a well know face (Bruce Forsythe making off in a nicked Subaru..)

if you have an accident or are pulled you'd be up to your neck though.

Simply swapping a vin & number plates seems to be a fairly easy way to go though. There doesn't seem to be any way to report this, and it's an easy way to assume a new ID for a car.

You have to wonder why someone needs to put a new ID on an otherwise sought after vehicle - just to save £230 a year tax?? or hmmmm, could it be nicked...