Anderzander Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 How often do you break one ? I've ....... No, I'm not going to tempt fate :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GW8IZR Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 no .. but they do fail. A lamp unit - you nip into Halfords anywhere and buy a bulb. Hey I'm not saying dont do it.. and having odd lamp units might not worry others but with my OCD it would really p1ss me off ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I would buy 3 for this reason or 2 sets, just like I do with sealed headlights. You are going to need a spare one day, just when you have been green laning in scotland and you need to drive home at night. Speaking of which, are they sealed units, or is the bulb a removable item? Also, is the lens plastic or glass? My headlights have lost the fight with a tree on a few occasions, and if these are plastic, it would tempt my interest. It is not on my list at the moment, but it might be one day. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have to confess to being a little confused after all of this. Are the LED headlights actually road legal then? We seem to have some parallel opinions runnign here with some posts suggesting they are not legal and others that they are. Companies like MUD etc etc sell them (not that this makes them legal - lots of others also sell non e marked lenses etc), but it seems like there is a risk here of fitting something that could land you in hot water?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 A good point.. Aditionally we all know how pernickity insurance companies are these days. I wonder what their feelings would be towards it if you were to have an accident at night. For example does fitting led headlights (e marked or otherwise) constitute a modification that needs to be declared? Edit: Sorry Richard. Reading your post in full i think thats what you were alluding to.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Not being employed or representing any official organisation or insurance company etc However if suggest that your answer probably comes from the iva guidance documents as to what would constitute a legal modification https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1 The answer is on pdf page 191/299 in my opinion (or at least it would be the guidance I would rely on in court if needed) 1) E or e marked 2) fitted with a wash system 3) automatic headlight self levelling system or self levelling suspension With LED headlights if you have or can demonstrate all three I could not see why they would be illegal (all of the other aim and beam pattern bits would also need to be complied with too but hopefully with an E mark you are part way there) Rightly or wrongly, Basically LEDs are now almost in the same category as HIDs (except HIDs also require dipped beam on at the same time as main beam due to ignition / warm up time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think Mr Hobbit was pretty clear with a response from friendly VOSA chap: An 'E' mark can only be issued to a product that is a like for like replacement. LED Headlight mounts have the E mark as they are a like for like replacement for a headlight unit. Bit no LED bulb can be a like for like replacement so if 'E' marked it is fraudulent. So your mount and lens are fine it's the lighty bit. I've also been advised that an enormous number of Asian made products coming over to the EU have fraudulent CE/TUV and E marks Matey from VOSA said - "fit the blessed things, just don't have an accident where we get involved as we will prosecute and your insurance will be void so you will also get a criminal prosecution form the Police; also don't get pulled into a VOSA check site as we will use it for a prosecution because we need the money..." I wouldn't do it frankly, and the fact they look *SO* different to a normal 7 inch headlamp means they get picked up really easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Your right. They stick out like a cartoon thumb.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris200100 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'd Inform the insurance company before fitting, as for are they legal it seems still a gray area however Landrover seem to have found a way as two of the three LE edition defenders due out this year have LED headlights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
task Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 All of the "Twisted" and "Urban Truck" etc offerings seem to be sold with the addition of LED headlamps too, I would have thought they'd be open to litigation if they were not legal and found to be the cause of an accident? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 They are legal for a vehicle manufacturer to fit. The man from VOSA was talking rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think Mr Hobbit was pretty clear with a response from friendly VOSA chap: An 'E' mark can only be issued to a product that is a like for like replacement. LED Headlight mounts have the E mark as they are a like for like replacement for a headlight unit. Bit no LED bulb can be a like for like replacement so if 'E' marked it is fraudulent. So your mount and lens are fine it's the lighty bit. I've also been advised that an enormous number of Asian made products coming over to the EU have fraudulent CE/TUV and E marks Matey from VOSA said - "fit the blessed things, just don't have an accident where we get involved as we will prosecute and your insurance will be void so you will also get a criminal prosecution form the Police; also don't get pulled into a VOSA check site as we will use it for a prosecution because we need the money..." I wouldn't do it frankly, and the fact they look *SO* different to a normal 7 inch headlamp means they get picked up really easily. The bit in red is about an entire purpose made headlight unit. The bit in blue is about LED bulbs. So is an E marked LED headlight unit legal? (i already understand that LED bulbs retrofitted into halogen bulb units are not. So the VOSA chaps last comment in green refers to LED bulbs or purpose made headlight units?? Not being employed or representing any official organisation or insurance company etc However if suggest that your answer probably comes from the iva guidance documents as to what would constitute a legal modification https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1 The answer is on pdf page 191/299 in my opinion (or at least it would be the guidance I would rely on in court if needed) 1) E or e marked 2) fitted with a wash system 3) automatic headlight self levelling system or self levelling suspension With LED headlights if you have or can demonstrate all three I could not see why they would be illegal (all of the other aim and beam pattern bits would also need to be complied with too but hopefully with an E mark you are part way there) Rightly or wrongly, Basically LEDs are now almost in the same category as HIDs (except HIDs also require dipped beam on at the same time as main beam due to ignition / warm up time) This is my point i guess - there's so much opinion in this thread i don't know whats opinion and whats fact. Fact is, i don't think there are any guidelines that say yes you can or no you cant fit LED headlight units. They are legal for a vehicle manufacturer to fit. The man from VOSA was talking rubbish. What are you referring to? Bulbs or whole units? I cant tell which the VOSA man was referring to?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 All of the "Twisted" and "Urban Truck" etc offerings seem to be sold with the addition of LED headlamps too, I would have thought they'd be open to litigation if they were not legal and found to be the cause of an accident?I think this is the crux of it. There is no specific law or regulation that says these things are 'illegal'. This of course doesn't mean that they are legal however. But it is an important distinction. And proving a HID or LED is the sole cause of an accident is unlikely, if not impossible. Remember no matter how bright such a light might be, it simply isn't illegal to have as many as you like super bright spot lamps that activate on mainbeam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Complete lamp units (bulb + holder+ reflector + lens) can be e-marked and are legal for a manufacturer to fit. They may be legal for an end user to fit, depending on the age/type of vehicle and how they are fitted. Replacement lamps (bulbs) which fit into an existing holder/reflector/lens unit are only legal if they are a like-for-like replacement for the lamp (bulb) for which they were originally designed. These are legal to fit under pretty much all circumstances, assuming they are located and wired correctly. These (and others like them) may or may not be legal, depending on who fits them and how they are fitted. Fitting these lamps in these holders is technically illegal, but the chances of you being caught if you do it are fairly minimal. There is no way that these lamps can ever be legally fitted since the base on which they are mounted was only ever designed for halogen lamps. Your chances of getting caught if you fit them are reasonable since they will be obvious to any VOSA/plod/MOT tester worth their salt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 So what about these for example?: http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/trucklite-phase-7-led-headlamps.html (p.s. sorry if i'm being a dick, but the examples above skirt around the issue of the units being discussed in this thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 There is no specific law or regulation that says these things are 'illegal'. This of course doesn't mean that they are legal however. But it is an important distinction. Haha. this is the problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 So what about these for example?: http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/trucklite-phase-7-led-headlamps.html (p.s. sorry if i'm being a dick, but the examples above skirt around the issue of the units being discussed in this thread) So long as they are fitted so that they meet the requirements of an MOT, then I would say they are legal. But IANAL and YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Fitting these lamps in these holders is technically illegal, but the chances of you being caught if you do it are fairly minimal. Can you please reference some specific reg that would make these illegal please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations require the mandatory lights for vehicles made after 1986 and used on UK roads to be 'approved'. In this context, 'approval' means they must be E-marked in accordance with the relevant UN ECE Regulation. The UN ECE Regulation requires an approval by one or more national approval authority - there is no option which allows a manufacturer to properly E-mark a lamp without having it independently tested. Lamp holder/reflector/lens combinations are approved with a specific type of lamp (bulb) in them (read the relevant Regulation if you want more details). Bare lamps (bulbs) can also be approved (and E-marked) separately so they can be sold as spare parts. So, for use in a vehicle younger than 1986, the replacement LED lamp (bulb) has to have an e-mark in its own right. The ones I linked to don't have an E-mark so they aren't legal for use in vehicles built after 1986. It's possible that somewhere, somebody makes and sells an E-marked LED replacement for a 5/21W filament lamp, but I've never seen one. For vehicles built before 1986, approval is not required but the lamps still have to meet the performance characteristics defined in the Regulations, which in effect means they have to pass the requirements of an MOT. So, I suppose you could argue that my post is misleading, but I'm trying to keep things fairly simple. This only describes the situation for the UK. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 In all honesty this thread is starting to really fizz my head.. The way i see it is, as long as you buy e marked lights AND notify your insurance company to keep yourself right, you should be golden. If, however you have non e marked lights, dont tell your insurance, and then have a night time "off", you will more than likely be in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 A few years back a chap who worked for the same company as I did was killed by a 'CE' approved product being used by another chap. It was a nasty accident with a product we had not been happy with - so unhappy that I had banned the use of it on the contract I was working on. When this chap was killed I was asked to help out run the internal investigation. The first thing I did was to check the details of the CE approval. It was fraudulent. Simply a stamp made by the foreign manufacturers and a bit of cheap printing. I had a long chat with those in the know, who explained that so many fraudulently stamped products come into the UK every year it's impossible to stop them all - generally they are found only when someone is hurt or killed. I've read the C&U docs. I know IVA/BVA. I also know what the MoT man is required to look for by law. Most weeks I get to see RTC results up close and I know and respect a number of the SOCO/CIT guys from 6 different forces. So I'll stick with what the law says and I'll not risk me, mine or others lives in the fruitless search for yet another piece of bolt on cr&p that generally only makes money for the seller... The fact that this saves me many of my hard earned £'s is a bonus. I think taking a chance on something like this is more than just stupid, I think it is more 'just' than a crime... Oh and never think telling the insurance company has any legal weight - that doesn't sort out what is legal or not. It means nothing. Insurance companies don't know the law - it's like expecting an MOT man to pick it up; he isn't tasked with that job. The job of making sure your vehicle is legal is your alone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumping jack Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Unless you have a pre '86 vehicle. Simple.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
need4speed Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 ?.Oh and never think telling the insurance company has any legal weight - that doesn't sort out what is legal or not. It means nothing. Insurance companies don't know the law - it's like expecting an MOT man to pick it up; he isn't tasked with that job. The job of making sure your vehicle is legal is your alone I agree that insurance companies dont know the law, but at least if you discuss the modification with them, and they agree to insure you with it, they cannot then claim to the authorities that you were uninsured... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotts90 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well, mine is a Dec 86 so just scrapes into the e-marked lights only category if I've read the above properly. With no disrespect to those who are clearly up on their C&U regs etc, this is a set of headlights...which to all intents have been tested and certified and marked accordingly (assuming not fraudulently certified). There are vehicles on here with lorry engines, race engines etc with torque and HP ratings far in excess of what LR envisaged for their workhorse chassis....yet these mods seem to have raised less issues than a set of headlights? Or am I over simplifying it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I spent a fair bit of time building kit cars for myself and others, and According to the information I was given by whatever VOSA was called at the time. Provided the COMPLETE light unit is E marked and approved for use on a motor vehicle, and is fitted so as to conform with C&U regulations. Then it is legal. Let's face it if that wasn't the case there would be no kit cars, as virtually every one uses lights completely different from the donor vehicle. However fitting a different bulb to a unit not approved and E marked for that bulb is illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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