New venture

[Simon_CSK]

I have been given the opportunity to venture into a new line of business and would appreciate some valuable input.

In November I was on a business trip in China and have made some excellent contacts for importing both bespoke and manufactured goods.

We have all seen products on Ebay from China and some of it is dubious and some of it is quite good. What products would you consider buying from a UK supplier importing from China and what would you definitely avoid?

I only am going to import decent quality stuff and have someone over there who has the ability to check the manufacturing plant for us. I am very familiar with Land Rover parts and have been playing with them for some time but interested in your ideas.

We were discussing things like LED lights and bulbs and wheels and tyres just to give the heads up.

[Cynic-al]

Ideally if you want to ensure quality i recommend having someone there that can monitor the production and as importantly their supply chain and someone to check it here before its sold. Personally I would avoid anything critical like tyres unless you have the ability to check it and good insurance. If big players like matel and mk can't 'control' China then you've got to factor in a certain amount of wastage in the budget. Remember the importer has complete responsibility in the uk.

That said I'm very anti China manufacture so maybe I'm biased

All the best with a new venture!

[Boydie]

I purchased my replacement turbo cassette from China as it was well below 1/2 the price of a genuine Garrett item, the only argument I had with the supplier was they wanted me to buy 100 of them -- it's now done well over 150,000 kilometres without any signs of failing.

[missingsid]

Hi,

I don't havea problem with China per se other than the UK trying to stop me from driving the cars I like on green issues whilst China's manufacturing carries on polluting.

As the importer I would expect you to replace any substandard part should such an issue occur and then for your own reputation ensure it does not continue. For me China has a reputation for starting production with quality materials then later dropping to cheaper/more available later when they think you won't notice so the above comments about monitoring are very good.

I'm sure this is true of other countries too but as China is dominating right now and so big it seems more prominent maybe?

If you were a manufacturer you would be balancing failure rate with cost but as an importer how do you do that before purchasing product, does the manufacturer have that information and is it reliable?

It does amaze me how they can make and ship product to the UK by parcel post and still make a profit?

For all that there will be a place for your business model if you have got it right and I would look at buying from you, thought the liability insurance issue sounds expensive if required!

Sorry that this essay does not address your actual question!

I wish you success and look forward to seeing how it goes.

Marc

[Boydie]

For a business model I would advise that you follow a few local Australian companies I just contacted.

Don't initially import any "essential safety" items such as suspension components, you can consider these once you have established a very close association with the relevant manufacturers.

Instead look for items such as headlight assemblies, indicators lamps and replacement external panels, bumpers,bonnets etc. The only quality assurance required on these reasonably expensive Land Rover OE items will be to ensure that your Chinese lower cost replacements are that they fit correctly and that any punched holes are correctly aligned.

China already manufactures about 60% of all alloy wheels sold on Japanese vehicles so these too should be safe - but I would still carry out a reasonable "X-Ray" inspection for possible casting defects.

Fuel lift pumps, vacuum pumps and water pumps should be okay but again, a quality control inspection will need to be applied.

Leave bearings and oil seals well enough alone, few if any Chinese plants are able to currently compete with European factories.

Serpentine belts and Auxiliary belts would be okay, however I personally would want good assurance on any Chinese timing belt.

Hope this helps.

[Simon_CSK]

Thanks guys

Some very interesting points. We have someone located within the city we would be importing from who will be checking quality. One of the factories we visited while over there was already supplying to major UK companied and we saw their production lines and they looked good.

Had already thought about the issue of safety and would definitely avoid products like tyres where there are rigorous safety issues. Like the idea of body panels that could be a good one to explore.

I would not have any problem replacing sub standard parts I think a reputation is built not only on the quality of what you sell but also the way issues are dealt with should they arise.

[tacr2man]

Before getting too far in , you need to be very aware of cultural differences particularly on ethical views, they have a very different mindset . You very much need to be dealing direct with the source , so trying to cover a wide range will be difficult , your margins this end are a consideration with regards to volume , perceived value . As to what to bring in , good question , there is already a lot of stuff coming in , some is selling cheap , but there is expensive items , that are obviously operating on a big margin this end , so if you are prepared to be a bit less greedy that would be the area to look at , for a short while until competition from you makes them drop prices to a level that is either sustainable or not . JMHO

[Simon_CSK]

Before getting too far in , you need to be very aware of cultural differences particularly on ethical views, they have a very different mindset . You very much need to be dealing direct with the source , so trying to cover a wide range will be difficult , your margins this end are a consideration with regards to volume , perceived value . As to what to bring in , good question , there is already a lot of stuff coming in , some is selling cheap , but there is expensive items , that are obviously operating on a big margin this end , so if you are prepared to be a bit less greedy that would be the area to look at , for a short while until competition from you makes them drop prices to a level that is either sustainable or not . JMHO

Our source lives over there is a native and was educated in Edinburgh. The idea was to start with one product type and build up from there. LED lights and bulbs are a favourite at the moment.

[Cynic-al]

There are lots of people doing those already but I think you can add value by putting a face to the product. I've ordered laptop chargers direct from china off ebay before where the mains lead has literally exploded when plugged in. result is I now don't want to buy direct from China I want to buy from a company with a UK office. If you can build a good name it doesn't matter so much who makes the stuff. Also try to get stuff which you can sell to commercial users rather than just land rover owners. Land rover owners are the hardest sell going!

[FridgeFreezer]

What Al said, you can add value simply by putting a worthwhile guarantee / quality assurance behind whatever you are selling as that's the main doubt over anything coming from China, you can't tell from a photo on the internet if it's good quality or utter tosh. A UK face wiling to stand behind it goes a long way to reassuring people.

[Simon_CSK]

I have sold a lot of Range Rover stuff after breaking the cars but more as a hobby than anything else. The important thing for me has always been to be as helpful as possible besides the cars are a hobby and while I can keep them on the road more economically they are basically the de stressor in my life.

[Boydie]

While sort of "Off Topic" we have currently an on going case here in Australia regarding imported household double insulated electrical cable -- imported from China.

Despite assurance from China that it complied with Australian Standards (I believe AS3001) and the original samples being supplied passing the required tests in recent years the insulation has been found to be defective and breaks down and cracks to reveal the exposed wires with possible electrical fires being the result.

The importer has declared herself bankrupt (strange that) leaving the main distributor, a major national hardware chain owned by Woolworths to carry the cost of rewiring several thousand homes, this will run into millions of dollars.

Investigations have revealed that the original cable samples that were initially supplied for Australian Standards testing bore little resemblance in insulation composition to the supplies later sold to the public.

The importer had no testing facilities of her own to test the cable to ensure that the stocks were consistent with the original samples, neither did the distributor. This in the general legal opinion was unacceptable and that regular testing should have been carried out to ensure that he supplies were consistent with the original samples.

[steve_a]

As Boydie said,

I worked with a company that was manufacturing their item in China and I think you either need a test kit for each item off the line (depending on use) or to at least have a batch test. The quality was sinusoidal, all good when starting off, dropping off, then kick up the bum, back to good.

LED lights etc are a good candidate, since you can get a test rig made which the line can take each one for a basic test, which rejects at the factory, and a deep test for each 100 or 1000, this is what that company did, each item was put through a test rig to confirm the safety elements. Each batch was also sampled to ensure things like cosmetics were still acceptable.

Off the top of my head the LED stuff you'd have a power rig that it plugs into, you measure current draw to ensure wiithin %, an vision system to ensure no dud patches and may an IR sensor to check heat.

Batch checking would be subject it to a mini IP65 type thing, so check torque of screws, placement of gaskets etc.

A system like that would cost about $5000 in parts at a guess and about $10000 to develop (sorry, not worth me trying to figure out GBP these days), but pretty low risk. Turn around would be about a month to create.

[De Ranged]

Odd you should mention that, about a yr ago there was a major recall from one of the major electrical supply chains for Chinese made 3 core.... I imagine it cost them dearly as it was started by consumer watchdog show here called "fair go"

Back on topic, I looked at importing air lockers, (mainly for the toyota market) got pricing etc.... I never did for other reasons, but I know a couple of guys who have in both cases they have priced a certain amount of returns or warrentee claims (in NZ we have consumer law that requires a new unit sold be up to the task sold for or advertised for, there is no way to avoid this)

One of the guys payes an engineer to strip down and check the known failure issues, he returned the faulty units to the company in china at there cost lol things improved dramatically after that from what he has said... they now just credit him for the odd one that fails QA and they have made him the NZ agent

I would suggest simple parts for a start and target the hop up market... young lads with money that burns holes in there pockets (they also rarely finish there projects so less returns lol) prove your suppliers in that market and then move into the rover market, older guys who have morgages, and kids we have to supply cars for (so they can f them up by modifying) as a market we are more discerning about quality as we know how to budget and know the difference in quality and how it lasts

Market from a website that is mobile friendly so they can search it on there phones

My suggestion, Alloy radiators, wheel spacers, drifting suspension mods, intercoolers, turbo plumbing kits.... I wouldn't get into turbo manifolds till you have your QA sorted, I've had half a dozen Chinese manifolds come in that I've had to skim and slot so they can be mounted... one I had to cut and re-weld the weld warpage on the engine flange was 12mm! now this was the hop up market, legally they should have been replaced or refunded... these lads came to me and paid me to fix it lol

[Cynic-al]

This is the big gripe I have we ce marking. The products I submit for kite marking are randomly sampled and tested by bsi. They also audit our factory process control. It costs a lot of money but you would have to work hard to trick them.

Ce marking you only have to produce a certificate to say that it complies. Noone verifies it and the only problem you will ever have is if someone complains to trading standards who as with everything are under funded or its so serious h&s etc get involved. Even then if it's made abroad the guy they take action against can be just someone working out their spare room with no assets and his neighbour can start up doing exactly the same thing the next day.

That's this guys topic ruined

[Simon_CSK]

That's this guys topic ruined

On the contrary it is very important to know the down side of any venture. At the moment there is a lot of talk about profit and nothing about the risk. Business is the offset of one against the other.

[Boydie]

As I said initially go for "consumables" such as headlight assemblies, -- standard on a Disco these are glass, but could quite as easily be high quality plastic as they are on later models,

Indicator assemblies, (front & rear)

Alloy wings, bonnets, door skins, rear quarter panels,

Front and rear bumper assemblies. OE design as well as steel replacement items with winch mounts etc.

All alloy fabricated radiators, transmission oil coolers and intercoolers.

If you can kick ass with really good pricing just in these markets you should be well on your way to a good business.

[nickwilliams]

There are ways of ensuing that the CE mark is genuine and that large batches are of the same quality as the original samples. After all, like it or not, the vast majority of low to medium value manufactured products come from the Far East and they are by no means all carp.

If I say any more I will be advertising, but this thread will give you some insight into my take on it.

[CwazyWabbit]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before Simon but have a read of "Poorly Made in China", it's not an overly negative book or anything, it's supposed to be written by someone who has had a lot of dealings with Chinese production and cultural differences as well as quality fade etc. It makes for quite an interesting and educational read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470928077

[Superpants]

I'd second the poorly made in china book- gives a good insight into the business practices, and importantly show the long term dealings of a company working over there.

We have had parts manufactured in china for work, and whilst some parts were significantly cheaper, I would be very wary of picking and choosing what we outsource out there- even with a good level of QA on the ground, things still slipped through the net and it was a lot more problematic solving them once parts had landed in the UK.

I think it is worth bearing in mind how poor a reputation some of our suppliers like B***part have for poor quality parts. A rhetorical question: Do you want to run a business where you focus & effort goes into ensuring your quality rather than all the other things that go into running a successful business?

[RedLineMike]

I'd 3rd the poorly made in China book,

I was reading it as the whole saga of the mach 5 knock off wheels came along, lots of things I Had read in the book became apparent when looking at Chinese products being imported into the UK

[Snagger]

I will not buy parts made in China. While they are perfectly capable of manufacturing to the same standard as anyone else, that is very intensive for quality monitoring and I don't believe any business monitors closely enough for my satisfaction. Buy cheap, buy twice. With the appalling lack of interest the Chinese have in safety, I wouldn't touch anything from there - their toys are lethal, and if they can't get something as simple as a plastic duck or teddybear right, then what chance for high power lighting, seat belts, air bags, suspension components or anything else where the tolerances and materials compositions are critical? Frankly, I don't believe they should be allowed to export ANYTHING to the EU (the rest of the world can decide for themselves).

[Simon_CSK]

Thanks for the insight on China however two of the partners in the new venture are Chinese one is based here the other in China so much of what we do will be sourced by a Chinese national working in China. It is important to him that the quality is there also.

[CwazyWabbit]

I think I'd personally still read the book Simon even though you have insiders so to speak.