whats the fascination?

[reb78]

I've had a handful of P5 Rovers and a P4 in the past (and a few other Rovers). Those inlet over exhaust sixes really are wonderful engines, which ooze quality. I love the way they pull from crazy low revs without a murmur.

I think the P5b coupe is one of the best looking, best sounding cars ever made (to my eye and ear anyway).

[deep]

I think the P5b coupe is one of the best looking, best sounding cars ever made (to my eye and ear anyway).

A truly lovely car. One of mine was a P5 coupé, with the 3 litre six. I actually preferred it to the P5B but that might be because the P5B I had was not a coupé and was a bit naughty.

Are we nicely off-topic yet? Well, I did get my coupé by swapping a Series II Land Rover for it...

[dave88sw]

I spent months and a huge sum of money rebuilding a 300 tdi and fitting it to my series 3. It was all in and running on the original chassis mounts and everything was as neat as possible...

I drove it for about 2 weeks and absolutely HATED it.

I now have a 2.25 back in and everything has been returned to standard at even more cost.

Horrible, noisy, turbo laggy, rattly thing that was very poorly matched to the gearing of a series box.

I now have 3 petrol powered vehicles and can't ever see me going back to diesel.

[Nigelw]

I spent months and a huge sum of money rebuilding a 300 tdi and fitting it to my series 3. It was all in and running on the original chassis mounts and everything was as neat as possible...

I drove it for about 2 weeks and absolutely HATED it.

I now have a 2.25 back in and everything has been returned to standard at even more cost.

Horrible, noisy, turbo laggy, rattly thing that was very poorly matched to the gearing of a series box.

I now have 3 petrol powered vehicles and can't ever see me going back to diesel.

If ever there was a comment to smak the fanboys in the face it was this one lol

I loved the Rover IOE engines, I once drove a series 1 with a 2ltr 4 pot and even that was super nice!

I can see another project looming on my horizon, sell the Disco, get an econo box and get a series with a 6 to rebuild

[Lewis]

If ever there was a comment to smak the fanboys in the face it was this one lol

Surely the point is that different people have different preferences. What is the perfect ideal solution to one person might be loathsome and hateful to the next

[tuko]

Surely the point is that different people have different preferences. What is the perfect ideal solution to one person might be loathsome and hateful to the next

Exactly the point. The thing that has gotten so many of us involved with Land Rovers is that the vehicles are like a big boys meccano set that we can and do alter to our tastes. The fascination is that the vehicles are an expression of us, our tastes and what we think is the best vehicles that suites our needs.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the enjoyment of actually doing the conversion.

Certainly for me, taking and engine that is horribly worn and underpowered and replacing it with something to make the vehicle better* is a very satisfying experience. And one that I'd wager that I share with a good many engineers and 'tinkerers'

*better can be subjective, objective or a mix of both. I like to think I'm mostly objective, but there's always an element of subjectivity if I'm doing the work myself.

[Nigelw]

Surely the point is that different people have different preferences. What is the perfect ideal solution to one person might be loathsome and hateful to the next

Exactly, we all expect different thing from our vehicles, especially me, but I still can't get my head around hobby series getting a Tdi overs several much nicer choices in the petrol engine. Every positive poster screams at the top of their lungs "ECONOMY", but unless it's to be a daily driver or very regular tow car, for me it just does not make sense, even then(now to really upset the "I don't believe the numbers crowd") my series was always around 14/15mpg towing my 22' tandem axle caravan weighing close on 2750kgs fully loaded for the vacation, how on earth folk seem to have ever allowed such poor consumption to occur is beyond me, many quote less than that running light footed and empty

Although this is becoming just like a discussion on converting series to coils, jus buy a Defender

[Nigelw]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the enjoyment of actually doing the conversion.

Certainly for me, taking and engine that is horribly worn and underpowered and replacing it with something to make the vehicle better* is a very satisfying experience. And one that I'd wager that I share with a good many engineers and 'tinkerers'

*better can be subjective, objective or a mix of both. I like to think I'm mostly objective, but there's always an element of subjectivity if I'm doing the work myself.

:(

Tbh, never thought about that element

[Snagger]

Nige, I agree that there are far too many folk who over-extol the virtues of the Tdi conversion to the extent of being rabid, but being a zealous anti is just as bad. Let people make their own choices based on facts and needs. The one downside of the Tdi fit is the noise, but in all honesty, a very large part of that noise increase is from the tyres, transmission and wind from being able to drive at much higher speeds than the original Series engines permitted. I had a lovely little Lightweight FFR with a 2.25 petrol that was perfect as a play thing, but would be a poor daily driver. My 109 started out with a 2.25P and was hopeless.

[Quagmire]

I love the 2.25 in my series 2 - which will give me around 20mpg on a run, it sounds lovely and pulls extremely well. It can also be left for months at a time (shame on me) and will still fire up at the first turn on the key.

However... the same engine was factory fitted to my early 90, and whilst again it did extremely well and was very very reliable, it was never a comfortable experience merging into fast moving traffic on an a-road or motorway. It therefore came out and was replaced with a 3.5. I fitted the v8 for the same reason as a lot of people fit Tdi's - namely ease of fitting, cheapness of parts and a big bonus for me was that by comparing to my Dad's factory v8 110, I was able to get a pretty factory looking installation.

It's all down to whatever floats your boat/breaks down for you best numbers-wise I guess.

[ejparrott]

I spent months and a huge sum of money rebuilding a 300 tdi and fitting it to my series 3. It was all in and running on the original chassis mounts and everything was as neat as possible...

I drove it for about 2 weeks and absolutely HATED it.

I now have a 2.25 back in and everything has been returned to standard at even more cost.

Horrible, noisy, turbo laggy, rattly thing that was very poorly matched to the gearing of a series box.

I now have 3 petrol powered vehicles and can't ever see me going back to diesel.

Sorry, but in that case you completely ignored the drive train, so you wasted your time. If you're not going to consider the vehicle as a whole, then you are destined for failure and you'll only have yourself to blame. Doesn't matter if it's a TDi, or a V8, or some other engine from some other brand. You must consider the vehicle as a whole if you're going to do a proper job.

Same rule applies to doing suspension changes, lifts, you name it.

[FridgeFreezer]

The one downside of the Tdi fit is the noise

Be honest, there are a few other little downsides - cambelts, heads prone to warp/crack, P-gaskets on the 300's... they're good engines but not totally flawless, and hauling a random one out of a donor truck these days is a bit of a lottery.

[Chicken Drumstick]

If you couldn't pull 2nd low box on your 2.25 it wasn't right.

Well I'm not wanting to dispute this (you know who I am right? CVLRC).

But it just isn't the case. I've driven and we've owned multiple Series vehicles and at least two regular trial with us, both ones that usually run pretty good. Yes 2nd is a usable gear, but big long climbs they have the grunt, especially if you don't start with a big run up. This is nothing against the engine, just a fact that by the numbers they lack the ability.

The 2.5TD is no different on steep climbs (ask my Uncle). A V8 or a Tdi is a different story.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Indeed, lotsa torque from a 2.25, 2nd low was a lovely gear for climbs that needed just a little speed.

2.25 = instant torque, not waiting for a few seconds while the turbo spools...

Well it's like the claims isn't is. A massively modified 2.25 will make as much torque low down as the lowest state of tune, low CR, worst output 3.5 V8. But I'm not sure that's really a great claim to make.

And I've not really noticed much of lag with the Tdi. A tweak to the injector pump and they are quite responsive low down. Ok you can't get them down to the same low rpm as the petrol (or early V8's). But I can't say I've ever found it an issue in any off road or trailling situation I've been in.

[Chicken Drumstick]

No not a 2.25, I had a 2.6 6cylinder, have a look through this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOE_engine#Rover_IOE_engines nothing like a 2.25 OHV engine.

I admit I'm a little lost. The litre/100km stats didn't help.

But are you actually saying you get 26mpg easy from a stock 2.6 Land Rover?

[Chicken Drumstick]

Its all horses for courses, everyone has different ideas of what they want from their series and there seems to be very few who will ever fully realize the potential from their conversions, either they barely do 3,000 miles in a year pottering to the tip and back maybe venture down a lane or two(no I'm not knocking those types of owners!!) But for those who do jump into Tdi conversions, a great many started off with a worn out engine to start and never got to enjoy a 2.25 in goed health and state of tune, the Tdi is just the easy route with the promise of good economy(which is never revealed due to limited miles traveled and by the time they covered the cost of conversion they sold up in favor of a D4)

I don't agree with this at all I'm afraid.

If you 2.25 is tired, how much are you looking at refreshing it to is wheezy standard state, which even if smooth, will still be utter rubbish on the open road and still drink like a fish.

And I'm actually a fan of the 2.25 and how they drive.

As for the mpg/fuel costs. It can make a HUGE difference. It's not just about total annual mileage, but making the vehicle accessible on a budget. If there is a trial coming up, £20 in a Tdi will give you enough fuel to potter about, compete, get home and still have fuel left.

A 2.25 you might be talking £50 and you'll get back with an empty tank.

Spur of the moment, the cost difference can certainly change if I was going to go trialling or not.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I spent months and a huge sum of money rebuilding a 300 tdi and fitting it to my series 3. It was all in and running on the original chassis mounts and everything was as neat as possible...

I drove it for about 2 weeks and absolutely HATED it.

I now have a 2.25 back in and everything has been returned to standard at even more cost.

Horrible, noisy, turbo laggy, rattly thing that was very poorly matched to the gearing of a series box.

I now have 3 petrol powered vehicles and can't ever see me going back to diesel.

Are you saying you'd not driven a Tdi powered something else beforehand? The engine won't behave any differently in a Series to a Defender or Discovery.

As for gearing, wouldn't a better solution to have been to change that to match the engine?

[Chicken Drumstick]

I still can't get my head around hobby series getting a Tdi overs several much nicer choices in the petrol engine.

I've asked twice already in this thread. What engines?

Every positive poster screams at the top of their lungs "ECONOMY", but unless it's to be a daily driver or very regular tow car, for me it just does not make sense

It makes sense for me, because I fun approx 24,000 miles a year out of my own pocket. 14,000 of that commuting, the rest for pleasure. My pleasure vehicles include a 4.6 V8 Range Rover, 5.7 V8 Camaro, 2.0 Turbo Impreza and my Series Land Rovers.

The difference between 14mpg for the 2.25 and mid 20's for a Tdi has a significant affect on how often and how many miles I can afford to use such a vehicle.

[tuko]

And I've not really noticed much of lag with the Tdi. A tweak to the injector pump and they are quite responsive low down. Ok you can't get them down to the same low rpm as the petrol (or early V8's). But I can't say I've ever found it an issue in any off road or trailling situation I've been in.

The same here, with the turbo from an auto Disco I've not noticed any turbo lag. I've been involved with and run offroad adventure weekends for the past 10 years here in Sweden, for my instance the Tdi motor is far better offroad than the 2.25.

[Bowie69]

Well it's like the claims isn't is. A massively modified 2.25 will make as much torque low down as the lowest state of tune, low CR, worst output 3.5 V8. But I'm not sure that's really a great claim to make.

And I've not really noticed much of lag with the Tdi. A tweak to the injector pump and they are quite responsive low down. Ok you can't get them down to the same low rpm as the petrol (or early V8's). But I can't say I've ever found it an issue in any off road or trailling situation I've been in.

A standard, well-setup 2.25 will makes lovely smooth torque at low revs all day long. With an SU it is even better, but

[Chicken Drumstick]

A standard, well-setup 2.25 will makes lovely smooth torque at low revs all day long. With an SU it is even better, but

Yes I know... Mine was running a new SU and we've had lots of 2.25's (and a few 2.5P's). Smooth doesn't actually equal high amounts of torque though. And wheel speed needs HP, or rather torque x rpm / 5252 = HP. So to get HP you need torque.

The output of the 2.25 is low no matter how you slice it. I'll have to dig it out, but a standard n/a 2.0 T-Series makes more torque @ 1500 rpm than a 2.25 petrol does at PEAK. So conversely a 2.0 T-Series also makes way more torque at 1500rpm than the 2.25 does.

But few people normally cite the T-Series as a torquey motor with loads of low end grunt.

[Bowie69]

Figures, here, courtesy of *you* :

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=77368&p=662237

I had an MG Montego, 2.0 EFI, non-turbo, 8-valve I think these were? They were very lovely torquey engines too. Given the T-series is a re-work of the O, I would support it being a torquey motor.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I had a 2.0 MG Meastro EFI also, yes lovely engines.

But none of this alters the fact the stock 2.25 petrol lacks outright grunt, even if it is smooth, refined and low rpm biased.

[elbekko]

My 2c...

I drove a 2.25 series once or twice off-road. It was fine until you turned on the lockers, then it just stalled on a climb.

The 300TDi I never found lacking off-road, but that was on fairly small ATs. It was an absolute pig on-road though, bordering on dangerous. Plus, I've grown to loathe that engine, especially its design.

A V8 on LPG is cheaper to run than a TDi, and has lots more torque and HP. The only real downside is range, which can be solved by a bigger LPG tank (at the cost of interior space), and fuel availability. Dual-fuel is a huge pro though, there's a lot less range anxiety when you can just seamlessly switch to petrol.