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Jamie_grieve

Thoughts and musings on the new defender

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Thanks Bowie and Snagger for the trolling accusation :mellow:. My apologies if my posts were contrary to high percentage of those previous. 

Having owned a good few of the "new" models over the last 20years I've not had one grind to a halt  or leave me stranded...closest was reduced power due to a D3 EGR. So in my own experience (which counts for nothing it would appear in this topic) my Land Rovers have been reliable. Out of interest, how many commenters have owned and ran recent JLR vehicles?

As HOG says, it's all moot until it's on sale and you can sit your butt in the seat...then rip it to shreds.:(

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Scotts90 said:

Out of interest, how many commenters have owned and ran recent JLR vehicles?

Until very recently I had a 2010 L322 TDV8 RR. It cost me more in repairs than any other vehicle that I've owned. Incidentally, the second highest in repairs would have been the Toyota LC 120 that I owned, but all the works for that were carried out under Toyota warranty...

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25 minutes ago, Scotts90 said:

Thanks Bowie and Snagger for the trolling accusation :mellow:. My apologies if my posts were contrary to high percentage of those previous. 

Having owned a good few of the "new" models over the last 20years I've not had one grind to a halt  or leave me stranded...closest was reduced power due to a D3 EGR. So in my own experience (which counts for nothing it would appear in this topic) my Land Rovers have been reliable. Out of interest, how many commenters have owned and ran recent JLR vehicles?

As HOG says, it's all moot until it's on sale and you can sit your butt in the seat...then rip it to shreds.:(

 

 

I hardly said that, but I was wondering if it was just belligerence in the face of data completely to the contrary, I'm sure you can understand that?

So not trolling, no.

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Fair enough, if that was not what you implied that's fine by me. It did read that way though as the following comment showed.

My intention was far from being belligerent; I didn't dispute Toyotas legendary reliability, just highlighted the fact that as volume sales go the cruiser is a small proportion (global sales since production at approx 3.5% of vehicles sold). Figures from global production of 200million (Toyotas website) vehicles up to 2018 and citing Jamie's figure of 7million being Landcruisers) this includes commercial sales too. Compare Landrovers limited line up of vehicles to the amount offered by Toyota and it's hardly comparing like for like, as mentioned previously LR is a niche manufacturer.

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It just gets tiresome when people defend Land Rover, saying that there is no evidence the new vehicle will be unreliable when all of their vehicles have proven to be so in the past and the new one is openly using parts and equipment from some of the most troublesome they ever created, and then arguing the point by claiming we have no knowledge as we don't own one.  I have numerous neighbours and colleagues who have L322s, L405, RR Sports (both versions), D3, and 5, D Sport and a couple of Evoques.  All but a couple of D4 owners are suffering continual expensive problems and the surveys bear the same results.  I also have LR specialist mechanic friends, so hear plenty of feedback that way too.  Loving a marque or model is great, but blind allegiance to it to the extent of denying the obvious is unhealthy, especially when that manufacturer treats loyal customers so badly.

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It is the brand blindness that is keeping them in business...

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13 minutes ago, Red90 said:

It is the brand blindness that is keeping them in business...

Cannot the same be true of Jeep given its reliability status and more recent failings?

 

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3 hours ago, Snagger said:

It just gets tiresome when people defend Land Rover, saying that there is no evidence the new vehicle will be unreliable when all of their vehicles have proven to be so in the past and the new one is openly using parts and equipment from some of the most troublesome they ever created, and then arguing the point by claiming we have no knowledge as we don't own one.  I have numerous neighbours and colleagues who have L322s, L405, RR Sports (both versions), D3, and 5, D Sport and a couple of Evoques.  All but a couple of D4 owners are suffering continual expensive problems and the surveys bear the same results.  I also have LR specialist mechanic friends, so hear plenty of feedback that way too.  Loving a marque or model is great, but blind allegiance to it to the extent of denying the obvious is unhealthy, especially when that manufacturer treats loyal customers so badly.

I too have friends who own a 4x4 specialist garage and also see first hand the problems that plague Landrover...

And Mitsubishi, Jeep, Toyota, VW/Audi variants etc  

There is a thread in this forum where someone asked about buying a defender, to which someone had replied they were no more troublesome or unreliable than any other vehicle if properly maintained. So fortunately I’m not the only misguided fool.

But I can see I’m fighting a losing battle, I like my land rovers...wouldn’t go as far to say I love them...it’s only a machine after all.

So please carry on unabated. I’m done

(Hurrah I can hear over t’internet 🙄)

 

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49 minutes ago, Scotts90 said:

Cannot the same be true of Jeep given its reliability status and more recent failings?

Couldn't agree more.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scotts90 said:

Cannot the same be true of Jeep given its reliability status and more recent failings?

No, I don't think so.  Every Jeep Owner I've met and there are a lot of them own cars from all makes and own or have owned four wheel drives from many makes.  There are some, but it is not the majority.  People buy the Wrangler because it is different and they know they can go off road if they wanted and they can customize it any way they want.  Kids want Wranglers.  No kid wants anything that Land Rover currently produces.  Rich yuppy mobiles.  Land Rover had a chance to fix that with the new Defender, but it is doubtful that will happen.  Even if it look cool (doubtful), it will be too expensive for normal people.

Nobody in the history of Land Rover ever bought one (a real Land Rover) because they thought it was reliable.  They bought them because they were cool and they could go off road if they wanted.  And they used to be affordable...

Edited by Red90

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Other makes also having reliability issues is quite a different thing from modern LRs being reliable.  It's not reasonable to defend LR on those grounds.

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Land Rovers we certainly not cool when I first started buying them decades ago. They were simply a tool bought by individuals, explorers, companies [utility, farmers etc] and the military who required something capable to do a job. The off road clubs were a by product of this. It was some time after the dedicated UK offroad and LR magazines appeared that they became cool and prompted by a publication or two a lot of people who owned them adopted some of the classic marque club's habit of waving at other owners in passing.

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On 12/31/2018 at 4:02 PM, Scotts90 said:

Thanks Bowie and Snagger for the trolling accusation :mellow:.

I have a theory about the apparent unreliability - and it's backed up by my own experience!

When someone buys a 4x4, they feel like they are driving a tank and that it doesn't need the same level or care of servicing as a regular car. 

I read that a day off-road is the equivalent in terms of wear to between 1 & 2 months on the road too.

They tend not to have it serviced by an expensive main dealer, or do it themselves.  Either of the alternative options is then far more likely to use cheaper patterned parts.  They will probably last long enough for you (or the next owner) to forget where they came from when they fail.

The combination of these factors, later in the vehicles life, give the impression of the Land Rover being unreliable rather than it being unreliable due to what's been done to it as everyone thinks they are the perfect Mechanic!

Why does this not apply to other 4x4's?  Because there are practically no patterned parts available.  Newer ones tend to be much more difficult to service without the 'special tools', computers etc - so on average, they receive better quality parts & servicing than LR's.

 

Those of you who've known me a l-o-n-g time will remember my vehicles perhaps not having the best reliability record?  (and some of the funny stories to go with that!).  Then, I had a revelation (as above) and only fitted genuine parts.  I also (unlikely as it may seem) followed the service manual to the letter (not the Haynes book of lies or my normal guesswork).  Since then, I've had no serious problems.  Outside regular servicing, in the last two defenders spanning 15 years, the only failures I've had are a head gasket on a 200Tdi and a wheel bearing on a Td5 110.

My 2005 RRS has had a few minor problems (drivers heated seat not working and a CD stuck in the auto-changer) but, again nothing serious or expensive.

I simply cannot believe that I'm just that lucky!  Nor that the change from extreme 'bad luck' to 'good luck' was some kind of divine intervention!

 

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Most of the unreliability of modern cars isn't the mechanicals, but the electronic niceties. The unreliability rankings count visits to dealers - making no distinction between an engine swap and updating the radio's software because it sometimes disconnects the bluetooth. This is why luxury cars and cars with lots of electronic trickery (usually one and the same) have worse reliability rating.

The days of bits falling off are long gone. Modern production lines fixed that. And that's what they're trying to fix with the non-hand built new Defender. But yes, it might have a few more sensors that can make it drive slightly less nicely if they fail.

For older vehicles, Simon is spot on (as always). If bad parts fail, that says nothing about the car. If horrible design decisions makes parts fail, that's the manufacturer's fault.

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All of my last Defenders have been brand new. In the three or for years I kept them they were serviced on the dot by main dealers or reputable independents. Each one had to go back for remedial work under warranty, some more than once. Every single vehicle. That is on a vehicle which was considered simple, basic technology too. Just think about that.

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44 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

All of my last Defenders have been brand new. In the three or for years I kept them they were serviced on the dot by main dealers or reputable independents. Each one had to go back for remedial work under warranty, some more than once. Every single vehicle. That is on a vehicle which was considered simple, basic technology too. Just think about that.

 

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

And that's what they're trying to fix with the non-hand built new Defender.

 

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37 minutes ago, elbekko said:

 

 

No doubt using stuff from the JLR models parts bin well known for their great reliability as shown in the league tables.

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4 hours ago, elbekko said:

 

 

Every owner of a new Land Rover I have met has had a dozen or more failures within the warranty period.  They all are fed up with the poor quality.  I've never owned any new vehicle that had a fault within warranty and I would be seriously Mildly miffed to have multiple problems on such an expensive car.

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A few years ago a friend bought a new 90, and within a year the chassis (even the visible bits) was covered in rust far worse than the underside of my (then) eleven year old Skoda. 

A couple of years ago I inherited a (then) fourteen year old D2, and was gobsmacked by the level of rust underneath. Most of the chassis and suspension components looked like a post war mooring ring on a harbour wall!...  It had done 104k miles (only 2/3 of the Skoda's miles) and had had so many new components (from bills supplied with it) that I thought it must be worth saving - so one new rear chassis, a  new hub, new top and bottom joints, new CV joints, new exhaust, and ripping out the interior to seal the sunroofs later and there is still work to do. The Skoda mean time, soldiered on with just a new battery, new steering rack and the normal consumables in the last 110k miles that I have owned it.

Another friend recently (after I had been on a bit of a rant about 'bad design' / 'cheap components' / 'poor-to-non existent corrosion protection' ) said - if they are so carp why do you keep buying them? Honestly I was stumped by that one for a while, but I guess I just love them? We moan, but we love them...

With regard to the new defender, I just hope that it's better made than the old ones. And, although I doubt it would engender the same feelings that the old ones do, to be honest I have been surprised by how much I am falling for my D4 after a couple of months of ownership. The world has changed and nobody would or could make a basic 'no-electronics or plastic' car any more, but if it's like my D4 but with a shorter wheelbase and overhangs, then it would do nicely for me thank you very much... If I won the lottery of course. :) 

 

Rog

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, ThreeSheds said:

...to be honest I have been surprised by how much I am falling for my D4 after a couple of months of ownership. The world has changed and nobody would or could make a basic 'no-electronics or plastic' car any more, but if it's like my D4 but with a shorter wheelbase and overhangs, then it would do nicely for me thank you very much... If I won the lottery of course.

Wait until you have to start fixing things on it.  You will develop different feelings.  What took you an hour to fix on the D2 will take a weekend on a D4.  When that D4 is 15 or 20 years old, come back and let us know how you feel.

I know multiple people that had D3s for many years.  They loved them.  So nice to drive and comfortable and not falling apart.  Then they got to around the 10 year mark and every other month something else failed and each failure cost a fortune to fix.  Eventually they gave up.  People compare new to old reliability without taking into account the age difference.  when these modern car are twenty years old, they will be unmaintainable.  The complex systems will fail and there will not be parts to replace them.

Edited by Red90

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On 1/2/2019 at 12:53 PM, simonr said:

I have a theory about the apparent unreliability - and it's backed up by my own experience!

When someone buys a 4x4, they feel like they are driving a tank and that it doesn't need the same level or care of servicing as a regular car. 

I read that a day off-road is the equivalent in terms of wear to between 1 & 2 months on the road too.

They tend not to have it serviced by an expensive main dealer, or do it themselves.  Either of the alternative options is then far more likely to use cheaper patterned parts.  They will probably last long enough for you (or the next owner) to forget where they came from when they fail.

The combination of these factors, later in the vehicles life, give the impression of the Land Rover being unreliable rather than it being unreliable due to what's been done to it as everyone thinks they are the perfect Mechanic!

Why does this not apply to other 4x4's?  Because there are practically no patterned parts available.  Newer ones tend to be much more difficult to service without the 'special tools', computers etc - so on average, they receive better quality parts & servicing than LR's.

 

Those of you who've known me a l-o-n-g time will remember my vehicles perhaps not having the best reliability record?  (and some of the funny stories to go with that!).  Then, I had a revelation (as above) and only fitted genuine parts.  I also (unlikely as it may seem) followed the service manual to the letter (not the Haynes book of lies or my normal guesswork).  Since then, I've had no serious problems.  Outside regular servicing, in the last two defenders spanning 15 years, the only failures I've had are a head gasket on a 200Tdi and a wheel bearing on a Td5 110.

 

I actually agree. I tend not to skimp on servicing, and my 300Tdi Defender is now 12 years old and has given me no major bother apart from bits that I would expect to wear out with significant off road and rough road use. The wear and tear factor is high (just passed 34,000 miles and on the second clutch and having worn out two full sets of tyres in that time).

The curse of Land Rover is anything with electronics, and they still haven't really figured out this electricity stuff.

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On 1/2/2019 at 7:53 PM, simonr said:

I have a theory about the apparent unreliability - and it's backed up by my own experience!

When someone buys a 4x4, they feel like they are driving a tank and that it doesn't need the same level or care of servicing as a regular car. 

I read that a day off-road is the equivalent in terms of wear to between 1 & 2 months on the road too.

They tend not to have it serviced by an expensive main dealer, or do it themselves.  Either of the alternative options is then far more likely to use cheaper patterned parts.  They will probably last long enough for you (or the next owner) to forget where they came from when they fail.

The combination of these factors, later in the vehicles life, give the impression of the Land Rover being unreliable rather than it being unreliable due to what's been done to it as everyone thinks they are the perfect Mechanic!

Why does this not apply to other 4x4's?  Because there are practically no patterned parts available.  Newer ones tend to be much more difficult to service without the 'special tools', computers etc - so on average, they receive better quality parts & servicing than LR's.

 

Those of you who've known me a l-o-n-g time will remember my vehicles perhaps not having the best reliability record?  (and some of the funny stories to go with that!).  Then, I had a revelation (as above) and only fitted genuine parts.  I also (unlikely as it may seem) followed the service manual to the letter (not the Haynes book of lies or my normal guesswork).  Since then, I've had no serious problems.  Outside regular servicing, in the last two defenders spanning 15 years, the only failures I've had are a head gasket on a 200Tdi and a wheel bearing on a Td5 110.

My 2005 RRS has had a few minor problems (drivers heated seat not working and a CD stuck in the auto-changer) but, again nothing serious or expensive.

I simply cannot believe that I'm just that lucky!  Nor that the change from extreme 'bad luck' to 'good luck' was some kind of divine intervention!

 

I don't agree - people may work on their own Defenders (earlier models mostly), but few owners work on their own modern Discoverys and Range Rovers as they are far too complex and need a lot of diagnostic kit and specialist tools, just as you cited for other marques, yet it is those models that are the most unreliable; Defenders and early Discoverys and RRCs seem to be more dependable, or at least more fault tolerant, and more reparable at home.

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In my experience most people who have a new vehicle take it back to the dealer for servicing, makes warranty claims easier and there is a perceived quality because of the flashy showroom and high price. My experience of a lot of the dealers across all makes I've owned is that they are swollen organisations with poor communication even between people in the same building, their customer service attitude tends to be to deflect the problem and convince the customer that it's because they're dumb and not mechanics rather than actually looking to investigate a fault. They train and employ parts fitters and will only do what the computer tells them and will not actually look for a fault because they only have one tech trained highly enough to do it who, even if he had the time to work on cars, neither they nor the customer would be willing to stand the exorbitant hourly rate they charge. Many are company cars or lease vehicles and the dealers well know that the lease companies are looking for minimum bills and don't care who long the car will last after they've sent it to auction. An example is VW who have a long and short service plan, if it's a private buyer the service interval might be set at 10,000 miles, if it's a company it might be set at 25,000 miles - for the same vehicle?! However the car usually survives the up to 5 years that that owner has it.  

The second owner takes it where ever is cheapest, doesn't research when things like the cambelt are due as they assume if they ask a back street garage that sees dozens of different makes to service it they will just know what needs doing. They don't realise that if you ask a back street garage to service it they will change the oil and filters, kick the brakes and give it back. These garages can be really good or really poor. I know one that won't take a shield off the bottom of an engine, they drill holes to get at what they need to, wipe spark plugs to make them look new etc etc and another that has fixed things for me that a main dealer couldn't. After a few years start getting a few problems that need money throwing at it so they just chop it in and slag it off to anyone that will listen. I've had a lot of fiats in the past which were always cheap cars compared to the competition, this tends to be the fault with them, people buy them because they're cheap, won't spend money on them because they're cheap and slag them off when they go wrong. I think another good example is air suspension, how many people say the pump burn't out so I put another one on and that burn't out so I converted it to coils. But never look for leaks etc

The next owner tends to go one of two ways, they're either a bodger who buys it cheap, runs it into the ground or does home fixes with wood screws and tinfoil or they're an enthusiast who takes the time to understand it and maintain it above and beyond. I think this is where the land rovers have done well in the past as they have a huge following of enthusiasts who enjoy looking after them. Their current range are to help their margins on selling new vehicles which you can't blame them for as that's kind of important to them, but the question will be can the enthusiasts get what they want out of the current vehicle range and keep up with the technology requirements to keep them going? I read the land rover manual for the EFI on my old range rover and I understood what it did and why it did it so I was able to diagnose faults. I had to call VW assist to my Amarok a few weeks ago. It had gone into limp home mode. Basically when the soot in the DPF gets to a certain level it's supposed to go a regen, for which you have to have over 20l of fuel, the engine has to be upto a certain temperature and you have to drive over a certain speed for a certain amount of time. If these conditions haven't been met and the level of soot gets to a second trigger point it comes up with a warning on the dash telling you to go for a drive that does meet those conditions. However there is a fault in the software where that second warning doesn't always come on, then it goes to limp home and VW have to do it manually. VW (and probably the third party that write the code) know about the issue but haven't been able to find the fault and fix it yet. If they can't do it what hope would I have in 10 years time?

I think when it comes to Jeep you have to give them a certain amount of credit. They make for their home market which is huge, and if you include south America enormous! OK Fiat / Chrysler are trading off the brand reputation with some of the softer models but what's different with America over the UK is that a lot of those vehicles will go off road regularly. Even if that's just unmade roads it's still a lot of vibration and dust that most Land Rovers will never see in their life. Well, apart from the potholes. 

That was my lunch break wasted... :lol:

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Now that just about sums it up for me^^^

I will add that in when the Defender was marketed as a "lifestyle" type vehicle in later years it spawned a breed of owner who had the money and enthusiasm to buy into the hype. Shiny new Defenders were ordered by private individuals and when delivered festooned with items from the growing number of expensive bling manufacturers and suppliers - usually fitted by a garage that can rather than the owners themselves. Any number of these immaculate, snow foamed, clay barred, polished and detailed vehicles could be seen dressed to impress cruising the city streets. Pride in ownership, that is until the windscreen screen leaked, intermediate shaft stripped it's splines, powder coated exterior fittings shed their coating, EGR valves threw a wobbly, screen blocks corroded and burst, rear cross members turned red etc etc. These vehicles made regular trips backwards and forwards to the ever diminishing numbers of JLR main dealers who sometimes provided an excellent pain free service and at other times not quite so.

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You've just got to love the ''lifestylers'' 😂 ''my mechanic says ...''

Mo

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