Changing up-and-over Garage Door

[ThreePointFive]

All,

My Land Rover won't fit in my garage.

The issue is the height of the up and over door, not the apperture itself. When in the up position it hangs below the frame, meaning that if the door and its frame were not there, it would just squeeze in at about the red line drawn in below. The number of factors that could make this red line wrong doesn't fill me with confidence.

I can let down tyre pressures, compressing it down with weight, etc. but none of that is going to make the vehicle usable. I need to look at replacing the door with something either side hinged or a roller. I've read up and it looks like caution is required with side hinging doors as they put a side-load on the supporting pillar which it is not designed for. It would be the simplest to install though, would give me the whole doorway clear of any framing and because it would be on the outside, would gain me a foot or so extra room in the doorway itself.

I have a steel lintle above the door which could mount a roller, but that requires a frame. I'm assuming that could be placed flush with the edges of the pillars though.

So what do people recommend for a situation like this? Is a pair of side-hinged doors the way forward?

 

[Retroanaconda]

Side hinged would be simple to do, but they do still require a frame to close into so there will be something at the top, though this could be fairly minimal in terms of depth and impact to headroom.

Given you’ve got good overhead space at the lintel I would look at a roller or sectional door. If you can do without the slight gain in floor length then you can set it behind the pillar returns and maximise width/height.

@FridgeFreezerhas a good thread somewhere with details of a sectional door going into his garage. 

[FridgeFreezer]

I do indeed have a roller sectional door and can confirm you can fit it behind the aperture with zero hanging down and only ~150-200mm headroom needed inside the garage.

Door installation post here:

 

 

[Bowie69]

Roller shutter or roller sectional door as above are both very good, with no 'underhang'.

...and pay the extra for electrically operated!

[ThreePointFive]

Well I think that solves that one.

Electrical door.... now I'm thinking of the possibilities...

 

[LiftedDisco]

Depending on aesthetics and where the garage is located, you can put an enclosure externally with the roller on the gable end, thereby absolutely maximising the opening and maintaining your internal space.  Might be construed as being ugly, but is certainly possible...

 

As an alternative and something you could possibly take on yourself, I happened to notice a local place the other day and thought, “that’s clever” as they had split the up and over door vertically, added some channel or similar to form a frame at the centre point and then hinged to either side with a lock in the centre.

 

This created two half-sized doors, thereby minimising the loads on the jambs and creating a pair of doors that gave good access to the garage space.

[FridgeFreezer]

Just to add in case it's not obvious - the roller sectional one is about 40mm thick and insulated which you don't get in a roller shutter. The sections fit together with a sort of Z shaped leading edge and very snug against a rubber seal down the sides, it really is quite pukka - no drafts and cuts down on grinder noise to the outside world.

[Bowie69]

Roller shutter tend to be insulated these days as well, e.g.

https://www.samsondoors.co.uk/insulated-roller-doors

(Just first Google result, no recommendation)

[ThreePointFive]

My garage is single brick and made by the lowest bidder, an insulated door would be like sound proofing one end of a cardboard box! Also it is a heat sink in summer and releases that heat inside to unbearable levels, anything that might prevent that heat from leaving could be a bad idea!

 

Seems I'm looking at about £1000 all in for a door on https://www.garagedoorsonline.co.uk/ so a significant cost, need to make sure my measurements are accurate or I could really regret it.

[Peaklander]

I have a roller powered door. It’s insulated and compresses when closed to make it tight and quiet.

The brackets are mounted on the inside gable wall but the weight is carried down the door guides at the sides. So there’s not as much weight as you’d imagine on the brackets.

As for costs, be careful and get comparisons and don’t believe the first numbers you are given!

I have photos if needed. 

[Romahomepete]

We have a pre cast concrete garage that originally had a corrucagted cement roof and 2 wooden barn doors.

Some years ago I changed the roof to a slated pitched roof and the changed the doors to a 3 section side openning door.The centre section is hinged to the left hand section and the left and right hand sections are hinged to the frame.  as it is not used as a garage but as a workshop normal access is via the centre door and if wider access is needed then the outer parts can be opened.

 

Peter

[geoffbeaumont]

Roller doors are available with or without insulation - non-insulated are cheaper, not surprisingly.

Looking at the amount of headroom you've got inside above the door aperture you should have plenty of space for a roller. With a sectional, can you bring it up to ceiling height, or does it have to run back horizontally from around the top of the aperture (which is the standard way of doing it)? If the latter, you'll lose a fair bit of headroom inside when it's open. Anyone know?

Sectional doors are much quieter than rollers (which rattle opening and shutting) - but if you're planning to work on your truck in there that's probably of no consequence! They're not that noisy, but if it's say right under a bedroom window and you want to minimise noise when arriving home late at night it could be worth considering.

[Daan]

Sectional doors are much better for insulation, but if that does not bother you, the roller shutter is about half the price.

I am currently looking at sectional door, but for the size of my double garage you look at about £2k.

There is loads used on ebay though, so I have a search that provides daily updates, and I just wait until the right size/colour/price/location turns up.

One other consideration (if you don't mind the ecstatic's) with a roller shutter is that you can put the roll outside the garage as well. This would give you about a foot of extra garage space.

 

Daan

[landroversforever]

25 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

Looking at the amount of headroom you've got inside above the door aperture you should have plenty of space for a roller. With a sectional, can you bring it up to ceiling height, or does it have to run back horizontally from around the top of the aperture (which is the standard way of doing it)? If the latter, you'll lose a fair bit of headroom inside when it's open. Anyone know?

The sectional door track can go at any angle. They're often installed so they go up parallel with a pitched roof to allow for stuff like vehicle lift clearance inside doors.

[Jocklandjohn]

Looks like there's sufficient clearance inside above the lintel to allow a wooden cross beam with a wooden pillar partly hidden on each side (so you wont lose much opening space) this enables the side-load to be both 'pulling' on one side, but 'leaning' on the other. Any doors hung on them will not be putting too much strain on either side so you could hang two wooden doors on them looks like; any strain going 'out' is really only at the top of a door, as the bottom pushes towards the side its hung on. The door tops can be right up to the top brickwork. I may be viewing it wrongly, but I was a joiner for donkeys years and made and fitted more than a few doors like that from scratch. You can have each side double/folding so they look more neat ie 4 doors across, each side door in two pieces.

[ThreePointFive]

I think you're right that there would be enough room, but I've managed to convince myself I need a sectional door now and that will be inarguably more secure. I just need to pull my finger out and place the order.

[ThreePointFive]

On 6/15/2021 at 12:56 PM, geoffbeaumont said:

Looking at the amount of headroom you've got inside above the door aperture you should have plenty of space for a roller. With a sectional, can you bring it up to ceiling height, or does it have to run back horizontally from around the top of the aperture (which is the standard way of doing it)? If the latter, you'll lose a fair bit of headroom inside when it's open. Anyone know?

Sectional doors are much quieter than rollers (which rattle opening and shutting) - but if you're planning to work on your truck in there that's probably of no consequence! They're not that noisy, but if it's say right under a bedroom window and you want to minimise noise when arriving home late at night it could be worth considering.

I'm trying to put in the order (finally) but this is my big question. I've thought I wanted sectional until now but just having talked to one supplier, they're saying a roller is better when you want to increase the headroom inside. I'm not sold on the idea. Noise is a factor for me, simply because I want to be able to work long hours on the car without worrying that I'm waking anyone up or drawing attention to the fact.

On 6/15/2021 at 1:21 PM, landroversforever said:

The sectional door track can go at any angle. They're often installed so they go up parallel with a pitched roof to allow for stuff like vehicle lift clearance inside doors.

That's interesting to note, but the angle is not so much of an issue as the height it's at. To make the most of the roof height I want to keep the frame 90 degrees to the door or I'll still end up with some dead space behind the angle. Looks like I have two options - 1 is a door specced exactly for the existing door frame which will give me just enough height, 2 is to spec a door about a foot taller than the aperture and minimise that space above the rail going back into the garage. I'm not sure if I'm being clear so I did another MS Paint high-tech diagram.

Dark grey is option 1, light grey option 2.

Seems like 2 would be the best one, but then I'll have a gap when viewed from the front, where the lintel ends but the door frame doesn't meet it as it's a foot higher up behind the wall .

Not sure what to do.

 

[Nonimouse]

Most modern up and over doors, as fitted on 'new' housing are 8" higher than the older doors. You could easily move the two courses of bricks above the lintle, then move the lintle up, fit a new door. I've been helping my neigbour over the road do exaclty the same thing - as well lift his roof three feet

[ThreePointFive]

I can see how that would work but I'm not a fan of the up and over design as there's so much wastage. I did look into raising lintels and moving bricks about but it's just not worth it for the effort if I can stick a doorframe in behind and have done with it. Also - and I hate to say it - I don't want to deal with builders asking questions about what's going in to require the added height.

[geoffbeaumont]

I take it the sectional track has to turn in at the top of the door for it to close correctly? If you turn at the top of the door frame (A) can it then turn upward again towards the roof or does that introduce too much drag?

[Anderzander]

I would go with the light grey in that scenario. I think the extra height would be essential- and the gap to the joist I don’t think would matter.
 

I expect the door will seal at the top of the frame - so if it’s only the visual impact that’s the issue you could put a cover over the hoist to meet the door - or even a draft sealing brush? 
 

Wether you accepted it or found a way to fill the gap - I think the extra height makes the choice for you.

[landroversforever]

Not sure I get why the bit about having doors a different height..... you can have the track in the uppermost position with a door 'normal' height. The track doesn't need to turn in right away at the top of the door frame. We've got several at work where they go up straight above the door, and then only the top section or two curve round a bit when the door is fully open.

I think your best bet it is to have a supplier out to look at it, and measure up. They'll know best about what they've got available.

Going back to the Sectional vs Roller... Roller will give more headroom inside as you haven't got to have the door there in a track. But that's only any good if you can live with the space the rolled up door takes - either inside or outside the building.

 

This is what I was meaning by following the roof pitch:

I'm on leave or I'd grab a picture of our roller doors in the up position. They barely step out at all above the door opening, if at all. 

[ThreePointFive]

It's because I'm carp at explaining it, but you've basically got what I'm saying - I need the track to run higher than the door frame before it turns into the garage.

I will contact more of the most obvious online suppliers and see what they say.

If it's the case that I have a longer door than I need and a gap then I'm not worried, the ventilation will be useful.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said:

It's because I'm carp at explaining it, but you've basically got what I'm saying - I need the track to run higher than the door frame before it turns into the garage.

That's exactly what mine does-  the top of the door closes against the back of the lintel, the lintel being the lowest point. If I remember next time I'm out I'll grab a piccy or two.

[landroversforever]

That’s what I’m meaning… you don’t need a taller door. The track can go wherever you please in relation to the door opening. It hasn’t got to turn away to the ‘horizontal’ (other angles available) position level with the top of the door. It can go up further then turn without the need for a longer door. Unless you want to make the opening taller again of course.