OT, Horse riding rules?.

[sean f]

Sort of off topic so if mods want to delete feel free.

Yesterday my 90 got hit by a horse, it was locked, hand brake on and parked by the side of the road outside my house at the time, the horse was being ridden down the pavement and appears to have been spooked slightly by one of the many cats round here, it moved sideways into the 90 and left a dent and scratch down the side of the 90 and flipped the door mirror round (horse and rider were uninjured), I assume the scratch was from the stirrup it was about that height, but was quite clearly fresh. When I challenged the rider, about the damage I got a earful of language which the swear filter on here would have fun with (I work on an oil rig and haven't heard anything that bad for a long time), but amounted to its my fault for owning a car, I should be parking further out into the road to give her more room on the pavement (pavements about 3ft wide and the door mirror was a couple of inches on the road side of the curb stones), she isn't responsible in anyway as its a horse which does what it wants and its always the cars fault anyway (even if it was parked in this case) and that I could go forth and multiple about any damage claim, refused to give and details and rode off. Just up from my house is a pedestrian cut through to another dead end road and several horses regularly ride down the pavement to use this as a short cut, most are quite pleasant but this incident has widdled me off a bit. This is a pavement and not a shared space for cyclists although they regularly use it as well along with a few motor bikes, to be fair the motor bike riders do go through at walking pace, slower than most of the cyclists.

To be honest in this case the 90 has enough dents and scratches that one more doesn't really matter but I normally park my car in the same space and I would care about that getting damaged in the same way, it has collected a few mysterious dents and scratches at about the same height but I couldn't be sure where from (I feel CCTV might be on the cards). It's not that big a village so I probable could trace the rider but in this case I don't need the aggravation involved in taking it further.

I am sure there are some horse riders or people connected to horse riding on the forum so question is, what are the rules for horses?. First is it legal to ride them on the pavement?, second do riders have any responsibility for damage caused by them or the horse?, third can they (rider!) be required to leave details after causing damage as a motor vehicle driver would be required to do?. This particularly rider was graphically specific on her view to the answers.

I would add this isn't a dig at horse riders in general almost every one I have ever met on a lane has been pleasant and we have been able to work out passing each other sensibly.

 

[elbekko]

5 minutes ago, sean f said:

second do riders have any responsibility for damage caused by them or the horse

In which universe would that not be the case?!

I would expect this to be covered by their personal liability insurance, just as when your kid crashes their bike through the neighbours' window.

Edited July 5, 2022 by elbekko

[Arjan]

Not sure about UK.

In Holland / France, a horse rider is seen as a "driver" and must have at minimum a 3rd party insurance.

So, rider is liable for the actions of the horse.

[Nonimouse]

A horse is a domesticated animal, so the rider is responsible for the damage it does - similar to a dog biting someone or causing a car crash. All horse owners are advised to carry tpl 

I would inform your insurance company and get a crime number form the Popo

[Happyoldgit]

Speaking as a horse owner, driver, past rider and mindful that there are two sides and nuances to every incident, I would say that responsible horse folk would be insured for third party damage. 

I would report the incident to the police and inform your insurance company.

You might find it useful to  also consult the British Horse Society 

https://www.bhs.org.uk/

And post your queries  on somewhere like the Horse & Hound forum

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/ 

 

 

 

 

 

[reb78]

23 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

 

And post your queries  on somewhere like the Horse & Hound forum

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/ 

 

 

 

 

 

Cant imagine that would end well having read bits on their forums before...

[David Sparkes]

You will find that in the UK, 'rider control of a Horse' is not the same as driver control of a vehicle.

Yes, do look at the BHS site, but you will find that in UK law a horse is accepted as NEVER being under full and precise control like a car is.
The law recognises that horses do have minds of their own and will sometimes act independently of their rider wishes.

When these instances occur there is no insurance cover, in that the insurance company will refuse your claim for any occurrence where the rider is still seated, or holding the reins if the horse is being led.
As I say, visit the BHS site.

If you get into any future verbal exchange with a horse rider I suggest that your first action is to put your phone on video, as I expect this will also record speech. I wouldn't hold the phone 'up' in an obvious manner, it is any threatening, aggressive, and abusive language you need to record, so hold the phone down by your side, perhaps facing the hose and rider. A visual image of the rider is the second priority.
It is on the basis of this evidence that you can make a complaint to the Police, if you wish to do so. It is no good deciding to make a complaint 'after the incident' if you do not have any evidence, so collecting any evidence leaves both options open, not collecting any evidence cuts out any future choice.

Regarding riding on the pavement, and any pedestrian cut though, this should be passed to the local highway authority, although a note to the local Parish Council is not a totally wasted effort. The HA should be aware of any 'conditions of use' regarding these public highways.

Regards.

[Nonimouse]

I would still ring the Police and ask for a crime number, citing the situation. Every call is logged and it remains logged, so next time....

I would also mention it to your insurance company, again for the same reasons.

The BHS interpret the law with their bias and this is an argument used in court. But believe me, when a horse causes an RTC , the owner will be held liable, therefore opening the case up for criminal damage if the incident is minor. The other question a barrister would be asking is 'why was the horse on a footpath?'. Footpaths are not for horse use, it's in the name. 

[Bowie69]

Horses do have feet.... 😇

[Ed Poore]

2 hours ago, sean f said:

First is it legal to ride them on the pavement

First hit on Google about riding on pavements

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/rules-about-animals-horse-riders.html#:~:text=You MUST NOT take a,where available (see Crossings).

[sean f]

Thanks for the replies.

Well the answers so far are pretty much what I though they would be except the bit about riders not being liable for anything damage they do, good to get some sort of confirmation though.

Really not worth putting it to insurance as its just one more scratch and dent to join the others, if she had apologised I would have just shrugged it off but I got a bunch of obscenities instead. I expect if I tried to make any claim it would fail anyway as I can't prove who it was, just my word and description so very unlikely to go through, all that would happen is my no claims taking a hit. Similarly I expect reporting it to the police would be a waste of time as I can't prove anything. I have some CCTV so will be looking into extending it to cover more, one looking at the front of my garage would incidentally cover the car and pavement, but not anyone else's property so hopefully not fall foul of any privacy laws, a video is pretty hard to dispute as a record.

Always two sides to any incident but hitting a parked car is kind of hard to get out of, even if the horse was spooked by a cat its still a loss of control, I am happy it was a genuine accident but still her accident not my parked car's accident.

There used to be a double offset barrier in the entrance to the footpath but this was removed to allow a person on a mobility scooter through a few years ago (who has since died), I will talk to the parish council to see if it can be put back, probable not on disability access rules.

43 minutes ago, David Sparkes said:

You will find that in the UK, 'rider control of a Horse' is not the same as driver control of a vehicle.

Yes, do look at the BHS site, but you will find that in UK law a horse is accepted as NEVER being under full and precise control like a car is.
The law recognises that horses do have minds of their own and will sometimes act independently of their rider wishes.

When these instances occur there is no insurance cover, in that the insurance company will refuse your claim for any occurrence where the rider is still seated, or holding the reins if the horse is being led.
As I say, visit the BHS site.

If you get into any future verbal exchange with a horse rider I suggest that your first action is to put your phone on video, as I expect this will also record speech. I wouldn't hold the phone 'up' in an obvious manner, it is any threatening, aggressive, and abusive language you need to record, so hold the phone down by your side, perhaps facing the hose and rider. A visual image of the rider is the second priority.
It is on the basis of this evidence that you can make a complaint to the Police, if you wish to do so. It is no good deciding to make a complaint 'after the incident' if you do not have any evidence, so collecting any evidence leaves both options open, not collecting any evidence cuts out any future choice.

Regarding riding on the pavement, and any pedestrian cut though, this should be passed to the local highway authority, although a note to the local Parish Council is not a totally wasted effort. The HA should be aware of any 'conditions of use' regarding these public highways.

Regards.

So what does any insurance cover, surely this means that any damage no matter how caused is not covered presumable it only covers something the horse does AFTER the rider gets or is thrown of and it runs wild?. If this had been done to my car it would have run into a £1000 plus claim I expect with panel and body work costs now and I would be expected to claim off my own insurance taking the hit on my no claims even if I could prove who had actually done it?. Under that interpretation intentionally riding a horse through a narrow gap scratching a car would be still not be the riders fault?. 

I didn't record anything at the time as I had expected it to be quite civilised and was shocked when it became abusive so suddenly and for no obvious reason and didn't even think of recording anything.

 

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/rules-about-animals-horse-riders.html#:~:text=You MUST NOT take a,where available (see Crossings).

Well that pretty much settles that one, I would assume this would have an impact on an insurance claim as well if I was going to do that, "damage caused whilst riding illegally" although under the advice above that still wouldn't be covered.

 

For reference this is the pavement section, with my truck parked roughly where the 90 was, looking again the pavement is roughly 4ft wide not 3ft so should have been plenty of room, its normally me that cuts the hedge even though it is not mine as the council don't (the wall side is mine) I think I will allow the top to grow down a bit lower to about 6ft or so, high enough for all but the tallest pedestrians but more difficult for horses.

 

 

[cackshifter]

The rider should have insurance covering public liability, maybe even through their house insurance policy. What if they flattened a child? But equally all means of transport attract a certain percentage of be**-ends.

[western]

The attachment doesn't seem to work. 

[Happyoldgit]

3 hours ago, reb78 said:

Cant imagine that would end well having read bits on their forums before...

Same could apply to any forum or social media group. What we need to be mindful of is the usual 'them v us' echo chamber and filter bubbles.

[sean f]

1 hour ago, western said:

The attachment doesn't seem to work. 

I assume that is the picture that didn't come out right, hopefully it will show correctly this time.

1 hour ago, Happyoldgit said:

Same could apply to any forum or social media group. What we need to be mindful of is the usual 'them v us' echo chamber and filter bubbles.

I know what you mean but my experience with cycling forums and posts is anything even mildly critical of a cyclist will be met with a large volume of abuse, they will defend anything and make it the motorists fault!, where motorists might slang off cyclists at time (sometimes justified, often not) they will also come down on bad driving from other motorists as well even from with in there own particular interest. I have no experience of horsey groups, not my interest so can't comment directly on them. It is definitely a minority of all groups (including 4x4 and LR drivers) that give a bad name to the rest of the responsible ones.

[Happyoldgit]

Photo shows ok now Sean. Ok I'm getting old(er) and easily confused but the hedge confuses me. Is the pavement the only way to navigate from beyond where your truck is to where the car is situated?

[sean f]

23 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

Photo shows ok now Sean. Ok I'm getting old(er) and easily confused but the hedge confuses me. Is the pavement the only way to navigate from beyond where your truck is to where the car is situated?

By car the way is to go round via the old road through the village, the two estates where built 40 years apart and the hedge is now protected, also I believe the residents in my half objected and kept the road from being a through road when the newer estate was built so just a pedestrian access was made. I expect when the first houses where built in the 60's they were planning to extend at some point and no one was fussy about ripping out ancient hedges, by the 80's things had changed and access to the new estate is off a different road. I can understand why cycles and horses use the road as they are both dead ends so only local residential traffic, the entire village is a 20mph limit, typically this is often ignored as just about anywhere, I always do keep to the limit if for no other reason than that the 90 and truck are very distinctive so easily identified.

[Nonimouse]

Nice Silverado

[sean f]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

Nice Silverado

2004 Z71 model, 5.3 vortex engine and converted to RHD by a previous owner at a silly price.

[pat_pending]

Any responsible horse owner will have insurance, report it to the police.

Did you get any photo's of her and the damage?

The attitude stinks, but having been married to a horsey woman I can say it's not uncommon amongst some owners/riders.

If you think a Land Rover can be a money pit, try owning a horse!

[reb78]

Haha. Agree and sympathise with all of that Pat^^^ 🙂

[BogMonster]

Horse owners think they own the road and everything that happens is the fault of the Satanic motorist in my experience. Thin on thanks, big on blame. Not all, obviously, but a lot. They must go to the same school as joggers and cyclists.

Just remember the horn is there to warn other road users of your presence 😇

[sean f]

I made a few enquires yesterday and apparently the rider is fairly notorious locally for ranting and swearing at other people, particularly any drivers she meets head on in a lane, always forces the driver to reverse and if they try and move forward at all lets go about them having to give her at least 2m, these are Devon lanes and an old village so it is physically impossible to give 2m on just about all roads. Most riders walk into a field gate way to let a car pass slowly and give a wave to the car and consider a closer but slower pass acceptable. Never moves aside to let anyone past and shouts at any one moving up behind her (I think I have actually ended up following her for about 1/2 mile before I turned off a while back and though it was inconsiderate riding at the time but since the 90 isn't exactly quite stayed well back anyway and didn't connect the two incidents). Dogs barking has also been a source of a four letter rants for scaring the horse (apparently one dog was even inside some ones car at the time and she sat on the horse next to the still barking dog to give the rant, and the horse never seemed bothered in the slightest). I got this from another horse rider and she isn't well liked in there community either as they get some of the misplaced complaints about behaviour.

The barrier is going to be discussed at the next parish council meeting (confirmed it is a Parish council thing), not expecting much, I expect a tight budget will stop it if nothing else, but the point has been made.

[Happyoldgit]

23 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

You will find that in the UK, 'rider control of a Horse' is not the same as driver control of a vehicle.

Yes, do look at the BHS site, but you will find that in UK law a horse is accepted as NEVER being under full and precise control like a car is.
The law recognises that horses do have minds of their own and will sometimes act independently of their rider wishes.

When these instances occur there is no insurance cover, in that the insurance company will refuse your claim for any occurrence where the rider is still seated, or holding the reins if the horse is being led.
As I say, visit the BHS site.

If you get into any future verbal exchange with a horse rider I suggest that your first action is to put your phone on video, as I expect this will also record speech. I wouldn't hold the phone 'up' in an obvious manner, it is any threatening, aggressive, and abusive language you need to record, so hold the phone down by your side, perhaps facing the hose and rider. A visual image of the rider is the second priority.
It is on the basis of this evidence that you can make a complaint to the Police, if you wish to do so. It is no good deciding to make a complaint 'after the incident' if you do not have any evidence, so collecting any evidence leaves both options open, not collecting any evidence cuts out any future choice.

Regarding riding on the pavement, and any pedestrian cut though, this should be passed to the local highway authority, although a note to the local Parish Council is not a totally wasted effort. The HA should be aware of any 'conditions of use' regarding these public highways.

Regards.

 

Good advice.

I think we've covered all the bases so will lock this now.