Les Henson Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 This is about abuse of what's reasonable Don. There's no intention at present to have some kind of 'elite' anywhere on this website. I take your point about posts (on this thread), but this is an exception, rather than the norm, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. There's obviously a problem, otherwise it wouldn't have come to light. Picking on someone for the hell of it or any other reason is not really a possibility is it? Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mean Green Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 free advertising isn't what this site is here for. Well don't offer a Classified section then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Well don't offer a Classified section then! why not? there are plenty of members here who've donated to keep this site up and running, people using it as a place to advertise wares on behalf of others repeatedly even after being previously asked for a small donation towards forum funding and choosing not to, isn't playing the game. The classifieds is a good forum and worthwhile if not abused. the site isn't here for free advertising but for the interests of its members classifieds being one of thier requirements. people selling on behalf of garages/dealers isn't within the reasonable ideal IMHO. stumping up a few ££ towards the sites ongoing costs isn't asking to much is it? Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I suppose theres a couple of ways of looking at this 1. The person posting the adverts is benifiting from the free advertising, but not really doing any harm it won't have any real drain on the sites resources (disk space and bandwidth) 2. Its a good thing for the forum that people are posting stuff in the classifieds its another string to your bow to have an active section that will encourage people to visit and possibly stay members... This site is pretty new so judging a members activity on 40 posts is a bit unfair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I suppose theres a couple of ways of looking at this1. The person posting the adverts is benifiting from the free advertising, but not really doing any harm it won't have any real drain on the sites resources (disk space and bandwidth) 2. Its a good thing for the forum that people are posting stuff in the classifieds its another string to your bow to have an active section that will encourage people to visit and possibly stay members... This site is pretty new so judging a members activity on 40 posts is a bit unfair Steve granted my point really is the advertising of a third parties wares and the decision not to donate. the seller is making a few ££ out of the sales, it isn't really asking for much to make a donation to the forum upkeep IMHO. I've advertised a 200TDI a couple of times for a mate, I have never added anything to the asking price just thought it may benefit the users on here, the difference being I've paid into the forum funds. Nick in this instance was asked to make a donation previously but has not done so but continues to advertise things on behalf of others seemingly garages/breakers. I'm not talking giving the forum huge sums of money, just something towards the upkeep and so as not to be benifitting from the users who've paid up and enabling the site to exist. if people think I'm missing the point send me a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 This site is pretty new so judging a members activity on 40 posts is a bit unfair You yourself have complained in the past about people using your website to have arguments Steve. No money involved, but still abuse of the website isn't it, and quite rightly you complained about it. Same sort of thing here really. Nick obviously makes a profit out of selling his/others wares, and no doubt dead pleased thinking he can do so at zero cost. If he sold a disco and made, say, £500 profit, is it so bad to expect him to pay 10 or 20 quid to put his adverts on this website? I don't think it's at all fair that a forum member that has donated £20 because he/she belives in this site, is helping Nick to make £? and has paid bugger-all to get it. Interesting conversation though. I think too often a lot of the forum members put up with things they would be better off commenting on. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorhead Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I can see the point and if it was a case of somebody coming along just posting adverts and nothing else, then you'd think cheeky git spam bin for you sonny... But to my way of thinking and this is just how I'd do it and we all know ORRP thinking is slightly different than the norm He could be offering good deals that the viewers of this site will benefit from, if he didn't post them they could miss out.. Also what if somebody was a regular poster but has a link in there signature to loads of adverts else where, do you ban the sig I suppose the other thing is how much is enough, I've had donations from £1 upto about £50 the £1 gets you the same extra features as the £50.. In short my view is if somebody is a long standing member of a site and contribute to the general discussion on a regular basis then no harm in posting classifieds If all they do is post classifieds f**k them off Not sure the personal slanging matches which we've stopped on my site are the same thing, they were basically off site spats that had been dragged into the public viewing and personally I don't think it right when other people start chipping into things they probably know bugger all about.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Ok, my 2p worth FWIW.......... Few Facts ? This is a new site. It has manyt of the posters (inc Nick) from LRE. It has survived due to Mods helping, Admin inc Teev and geoff and others sorting out all the techy stuff on our behalfs. They have done all of this for free, and have asked for paypal from users to help fund, note : ask, not insist or levels of service if you do - don't, just ask (and yes I have before anyone asks ) Nick is an poster long term on LRE now LRA. He choses this site for what ever reason and uses it, agreed the classifieds a lot, and is that such a bad thing when we may benifit from what he is selling.... Most who use classifieds do so for small bits bobs projects (littygrippers etc) and other stuff, even the odd 4x4 or two, but these are manily "I've just bought a new 4x4 so my old one is up for grabs etc" Some use it to maybe advise of a mates 4x4, often with an apology preceeding the ad etc, again seems ok...if not abused ? So we have a sight which has a number of members, looking to grow, and has an air of "fairness" about it. Nicks post I did see, and did think it was frankly a bit much....it wasn't the std advert of someone shifting there bits bobs old 4x4 etc, it did make me think Ooooh ..... Les decided to delete it, and then the posts started.......... Prob with this is it is a fine line, how many posts before anyone sghould post, how many ads before its viewed as Taking the P a bit, and what sort of ads are deemed to be OTT... ? No absolute can be given, but it was borderline surely ?.... Would the arguement be any different if Nick had contributed ?....maybe yes maybe no, if so how much ?....but I would guess any contribution may have gone a way to not getting the reaction, even a nominal amount, it shows good will and contribution to the Forum..... Or even a "Hope this is ok" explaination....may have done it................ Both £ and Hope this is ok would I'm sure have done it Did Les over react, I think prob not, again its a fine line but it has to be drawn somewhere...... Nick. say sorry shove 'some' money on Paypal to LRA and make everyone feel guilty as hell Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Hmm, how about this for a definition of reasonable use of the Classifieds Forum (I'm not saying it's site policy - I'm throwing it in for discussion): Private sales only, no trade. Trade defined as buying and selling purely for profit (as opposed to buying a vehicle or other item, using it for a while then selling it on). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 The simplest thing Nick could have done was brought his original ad back to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 My 2p: Nick appears to be making money, albeit "non-commercially" Nick advertises in the Classifieds a lot Any forum needs posts, the more the merrier More posts brings more readers, not the other way round Imposing limits on selling price doesn't work (4x limit, anyone?) I say let him post, but a donation to the site (which I think has now proved its permanency) would be appreciated. And no, I've not paid up either yet but I think now is the time. It's too soon to see people being excluded. JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Private sales only, no trade. Trade defined as buying and selling purely for profit (as opposed to buying a vehicle or other item, using it for a while then selling it on). I don't agree with that. It would exclude the like of Nige's Kittygrippers, Jez's trailing arms, Fi's cakes for the bring and buy sale, etc. And these are benificial to the members, except maybe Fi's cakes To be honest I never gave Nicks post a second thought. He's been around a while and we all know he does a bit of wheeling and dealing, so what? What about others like Digger90/Simon, he buys and sells a fair bit of stuff (and not just cos he changes him mind more often than his socks ). What I'm saying it as far as I'm concerned it's all fair enough from members who contribute to the board and I'm not talking financially. Nick may have not been that active on LR4x4 but he's still what I'd consider one of the old school of long standing members. Although I've never bought of Nick I would do if he had the right item at the right time, oh and of course the right price. What does tend to raise my eyebrow is when a newbie comes on and their first (and often only) post is an advert. But then again are they not doing us a favour, by (a) adding traffic to the site and (B) bringing stuff for sale to our attention, maybe some of the regulars would like to buy the stuff. Now while I don't like the feel of any pressure on people to pay to be able to use the classifieds (like Chris Trickers old site whatever it's called now, that was one of the things that put me off the place even though it didn't really effect me) it would be nice if those who regularly use the classifieds did actually put their hands in their pockets. Well as I've had (probably more than) my 2p's worth I guess I should put my hand in my pocket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Like I said, just thrown in for discussion - it shows how difficult it is to draw a clear line between use and abuse of the Classifieds, as anything more loosely defined will be hard to police fairly but, as Mark has very clearly illustrated, a rule that rigid would prevent many things we currently find useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonPearson Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 >> nd not just cos he changes him mind more often than his socks Hey! I resent that remark! My mind is firmly made up that I don't know what I really want(!) I've at least been consistent in that for 2 year snow... V8...Tdi...V8....Tdi.....V8....Tdi...V8....Tdi...V8...Tdi.... V8...Tdi....V8....Tdi Oh, b*gger that, I bought a 90 with an Isuzu engine in it! OK.. that should read: "2 years now" not "2 year snow". By the way... I say let him post. Why don't you ask him for a donation via PM instead of airing the dirty laundry on the Forum? Nick seems like a jolly decent chap... he's bought stuff off me in the past and I've bought stuff off him. We've never met, but surely we're better off with his participation in this Forum than without. Our numbers do seem to be dwindling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 My 2p's worth is that there may be someone who could benefit from a cheap dented disco - if there's not, then it's not exactly cost the forum any great expense to have the post there. Whether Nick's conscience encourages him to donate a few quid if/when a free post on the forum makes him a few hundred is down to him. I would expect he's less inclined to make a donation after this little episode. I still think Pirate have the right idea of buying a star if you're pimping wares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I looked through the advert initially and thought the same as Nige, oohh thats a bit close, especially with the previous ads for a couple of motors in the shed which suggested "trader"... When the post got removed I thought fair enough and then when the replies started - unfair and quite surprising. The ref and his decision should be respected.. (not necessarily treated as "Final" but I certainly thought the deletion by Les was well worded to have allowed a "fair enough guv, I am guilty as charged" response and that may have been the end of it. I started a post earlier and then stopped because it was not my place. However, Les has asked for an opinion therefore that opens the door. There are a couple of sellers who are blatantly selling for profit (or trying). Call 'em traders or whatever but if you've only made a couple of posts and they are all sell/sell with no participation in the technical discussions then "off". I'd even suggest that using the youth of the forum is a fairly basic excuse.. Contributions and themes are pretty obvious from the start. I wholeheartedly took part in the donation idea because I really would like to see this forum work. I feel very sorry for the admin and mods because its probably like being in government - there is always somebody who has the hump and somebody who wants to strir and revels in seeing potentially successful things or people fail. In this forum, we've all come from a similar place at the same time and know most of the background so the hierarchy is less clear.... Personally, I think that Geoff, Les and the rest of the mods were enthusiastic enough to pick up the challenge and deserve respect so can we all not give them that? A request for an unspecified financial contribution often sorts the group out as well and I'll bet that the number of contributors is pretty low... Kinda like Michelles stickers on LRE - wonder how many folk actually bought one, bet its nowhere near the number of folk who said they would until the time actually came to part with the cash... To conclude my ramble - Blatant Ads for Profit should be banned. If you want to sit back and wait for others to make the running then decide if its successful enough for you to contribute then thats your choice. However, if you take that line, then you have less right to a say on how things are run and if the ref says "yellow card", apologise and don't do it again or else pay your way and feel free to answer back... You know, when the government bans 4x4's or prevents the hysterical masses from making them impossible to own, who will feel we gave it our best shot to protect what we see as our rights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I guess Im a classifieds criminal as well. Yes I flog whatever bits and bobs may be surplus, if Im making trailing arms for myself I knock up a few extra, hopefully saving some poor souls from having to by feeble scrapiron ones. yes I make a profit doing it, that profit goes towards funding my passion, in fact almost every pennny I earn gets sucked into funding 3 new projects. and yes I think this forum is worth supporting, so tell me - whats a reasonable contribution? I recognise and appreciate the efforts the mods have put in, those that know me will testify the last thing I give a monkeys for is brown nosing so this is my lacklustre attempt at sincerity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Raider Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Enough with the ranting! thats my job! (trying to get you guys to lighten up) I haven't paid my subs yet, i do'nt like paypal, can some one pm me a postal address and i will send a cheque. P.S. how much to advertise home made apple pies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minivin Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Enough with the ranting! thats my job! (trying to get you guys to lighten up)I haven't paid my subs yet, i do'nt like paypal, can some one pm me a postal address and i will send a cheque. P.S. how much to advertise home made apple pies? oiy! I picked those apples as well!!! TRADER! TRADER! Slave Trader at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 funding this site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I feel very sorry for the admin and mods because its probably like being in government - there is always somebody who has the hump and somebody who wants to strir and revels in seeing potentially successful things or people fail. Feel sorry for me then ... I'm in Government as well But the election is next month then I am free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 To conclude my ramble - Blatant Ads for Profit should be banned. Except it isn't that simple...all ads are for profit (aside from wanted and the 'free to a good home' variety). So you still don't have a clear line between what's good and what's bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Feel sorry for me then ... I'm in Government as well But the election is next month then I am free Steve, Thats what you think... The way the media works and dramatises everything - I am sure if we could come up with a good spin and get the "Falkland Sun" to buy in, we could hype you up to a point where even the penguins are voting to keep you in whether you like it or not! Recent reports on anti-4x4 Campaigners on the BBC shows that even they have gone from "Factually Reporting the News" to telling stories they think will increase their viewing figures. Except it isn't that simple...all ads are for profit (aside from wanted and the 'free to a good home' variety). So you still don't have a clear line between what's good and what's bad. Geoff & Dollythelw, Except you give the benefit of the doubt to the one who contributes to the technical discussions or just generally "takes part" as well - So from my observation point in the North that counts both Dolly and Fi as okay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I agree whole heartedly ( although it pains me considerably ) with Mark90. Traders can go jump, but true forumeers who come across a good deal now and then (even if it is more "now" than "then") are welcome. After all, you don't have to buy what's on offer, but you might want to...... if the post is banned then you don't get the choice. The Classified section isn't exactly over run with posts is it? Maybe if it gets that way then we'd have to reconsider. I don't think contributors should be identifiable in any way (and that's not because I haven't got my act together yet and coughed up! ). All that will do is exacerbate any "them and us" feelings that already seem to be materialising IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigster Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Can I see the original advert please.. I have missed it some how... Read the rest of the post and think its a bit petty, its only an advert....... Besides numbers are dwindling on this site (sp?) because it is very clicky at the moment. Admittedly there is a lot of help out there when required, but this site has a lot of mostly pointless chit chat. Pics of events etc, keep them coming - I like to see other motors in action, and people doing mods as well - all good stuff. 2p's worth, will sit down and be quiet and wait to be ignored again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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