B@@@@y Scrapiron

[chrissyboy]

Hi Simon,

I'm glad you found some of my thoughts useful. I'm afraid copying is common currency in business. If we are honest we all do it to some extent or other. In Scorpion's defence they are taking the risks of having a large advertising spend in order to take a high profile and they are generally doing a good job of marketing their products. You thought you would take a shortcut by piggybacking on their high profile and expensive advertising. It has now backfired on you. What I have learned in business though is that setbacks can often be turned round and even turned to your advantage. You should milk setbacks for all their lessons. This problem could turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you because in five years time you might have a whole raft of products designed/invented by yourself and successfully marketed by yourself and it will all be thanks to the lesson you learned with the brake. Most of my best ideas have come when I have felt threatened by competition.

We have considered patenting of this and other products, however, there have been one or two cased in the off road arena where a patent has been granted for a product, it has been copied save for a change of colour and a bolt or two in a different place and the patentholder loosing in court after the changes have been deemed to be an improvement on the original design.

I would not take too much notice of these cases unless you actually contact the people concerned and get them to tell you everything which actually happened (which would be extremely useful to you of course). I think you may find in a lot of cases where people have lost it may be because their original application was badly drafted or because they did not have the resources to defend the patent properly - not necessarily because of some weakness in the patenting process itself. I think it would pay you to look at this very carefully. There must be tons of information on the internet and also some good books. With limited resources you need to become your own expert on patent law. I know that a million other things are sucking away all your time and money resources but with your business based on your engineering ingenuity and innovation this is going to be crucial to your success. The patent office do some very good leaflets including one on how to draft your own patent.

I fully agree with whaty you say about marketing and advertising - and indeed I run 1/4 page ads in three mags at the moment. What works (advert wise) and what does not continues to surprise me despite having read a couple of books on the subject. Much of what the books suggest is just plain wrong in this marketplace. A good example is putting prices on adverts. One book seemed to think that if you do not include prices, it encourages people to ring up and enquire - and you can change a proportion of enquiries into sales. As this thread has suggested in a couple of places "never trust a company who do not advertise prices". The prices went back in after a month!

For the next batch of ads, I'm using a graphic and strategy designed by an agency (who have done some good but simple campaigns in this sector). Time will tell if they know what they are talking about! The new ads look pretty good though!

Read "Ogilvy on Advertising" and "Tested Advertising Methods". I would not place too much reliance on fancy graphics. Fancy graphics and logos are "me messages". You need to be concentrating on "you messages" ie. benefits! Never do an ad without it listing all the benefits. An interested prospect will read as much as you want to tell him about the benefits your product is offering. Never make the mistake of thinking too much copy will bore people. People who are not interested in the product will find it boring no matter what the format.

My biggest problem in all this is time! It's proving difficult to find enough for taking and dispatching orders, project managing the manufacture, marketing and the all important research & development whilst not really having the turnover to support employing more people. It may be that one has to bite the bullet, employ some help and that this in turn will lead to higher turnover because you can do the same job more effectively?

This is the conundrum every businessman has to face. Given unlimited resources and time we could all run world beating businesses. I recommend this book: "The Ultimate Entrepeneur's Book" by Richard Dobbins and Barrie Pettman

With the release of the next few items, I will employ some help in producing press releases etc as it is not my strong point (I'm definatly not a salesman!). My company ethos has always been to treat everyone the same and to treat them in the manor in which I would like to be treated as a customer. I hope this will pay divedends (literally!) in time compared to the double-glasing salesman approach, which undoubtably works - but I suspect only short term.

Here is a CD audiobook that will put you on the right track:

Zig Ziglar

The guy is very entertaining!

Cheers Chris

[Hillbilly Rebel]

Are you the same guy that sells health food/advice on LRO?

[chrissyboy]

Are you the same guy that sells health food/advice on LRO?

Hi Hillbilly.

I don't know about "sell". I think "preach" is nearer the mark. LOL

Cheers Chris

[Beast5680]

have seen some discussion on other forums re this thread so have just joined to voice my support for the cause, personally i have not booght from said scrapiron co mainly due the attitude on the phone when i,ve rung for prices etc, its like i,m disturbing them from doing something important

keep up the good work dont let the buggers get you down remember david beat goliath!

[OilIT]

have seen some discussion on other forums re this thread so have just joined to voice my support for the cause, personally i have not booght from said scrapiron co mainly due the attitude on the phone when i,ve rung for prices etc, its like i,m disturbing them from doing something important

keep up the good work dont let the buggers get you down remember david beat goliath!

Simon,

You know what, a neighbour of mine has bought one of your items and says its great - I was going to wait - but bugger it, I'll order one tomorrow morning - hopefully help fund the anti scorpion campaign - or if nothing else - at least fund a couple of beers to drown your sorrows!

Bad show - I suggest everybody boycots them at SODbury (unless you have an anti shirt on!)

[simonr]

Here is a CD audiobook that will put you on the right track:

Zig Ziglar

The guy is very entertaining!

Cheers Chris

Right, I've ordered it - let's see how entertaining he is!

Si

[*lee90*]

hi all i have been building a truck for a while now and i have made loads of thing for it that other companys sell for myself and other people.I dont see the problem with it.Why pay for it when you can do it aswell yourself and make money from it to i have done alot of different motorsports now and it like it with everything everywhere it life its bussiness get over it

[Mark]

hi all i have been building a truck for a while now and i have made loads of thing for it that other companys sell for myself and other people.I dont see the problem with it.Why pay for it when you can do it aswell yourself and make money from it to i have done alot of different motorsports now and it like it with everything everywhere it life its bussiness get over it

There is a very big difference between making something for yourself cos you can't afford on / can do it better / prefer to build it yourself / whatever than blatantly using somone elses product to guage market interest and then once the other guy has taken the risk and invested in the development copying the product to profit from it.

Mark

[Mr Nick]

First i'd like to say Hi to every one. Ok Ive come on to the LR4x4 Forum to just put a few things straight on these here TREE Sliders ! It was me that supplied Scorpion Racing a couple of years ago with the THREE differant styles of sliders they supplied, These sliders wernt copyed from anybody as its not brain science to what they are or how there made. I no longer supply or make these for scorpion anymore due to just not having the time to do them, but i must add i do know who dose supply them to Scorpion and i did have a call from this person to see if i minded his company COPYING the sliders i supplied to Scorpion. I didn't have a problem at all with this as you aint going to make a million from selling this product. I read alot of the 4x4 forums about out there and find them very intresting ! My advice to anybody in business fabricating, designing or selling there products. Dont put all your eggs into one basket and dont publish your thoughts on the web as it will more than likely come back and bite you in the ass. Remember its a small world and word travels fast !!!! Work that out for yourselves.

I'm going to add that I myself have Bought off Scorpion for a long time now as well as using other companys for other products and never had a problem with them, I actully find Colin a nice down to earth Bloke that will help you out if he can, Some of you on here will disagree with me but thats your opinion and i'll respect that.

Hope this has put a few things straight and remember your all here for a good time not a long time.

On a lighter note we supply and design Vinyl Stikers for the Off and On Road Vehicle world !

And yes the Vinyl Stickers you see on the Scorpion site are from us but dont let that put you off buying from us as were here to put a smile on yours and your trucks face. All designs,Styles and Logos catered for.

You Can find the contact details on my Web Site Soon @ www.xtremelandy.co.uk for any vinyl stickers or vehicle design you want.

Well All the Best to you all and if you want your truck on the site just email me your pictures.

G4NJR NICK

www.xtremelandy.co.uk

[SteveG]

Hi Nick

Welcome.

Not sure I see the need for you to set things straight on the sliders, if you read the posts it does that anyway. But if you felt you needed to so be it.

I have bought a number of things from Scorpion too with no problems - that's not the issue here. I think that Colin and Roz are ok too, but now I know about what Colin did with X-Eng and the business ethics behind it I don't have much time for him anymore. I see you don't give an opinion on this - or by you not mentioning should I assume that you think it's fine??

Cheers

Steve

[Daan]

Patent: I dont think a Disk handbrake is something you could patent: It is an application of an existing item. Therefore you cant stop people use a disk brake on a handbrake. More importantly, you werent the first: I was running this since 2001 and I have seen more home grown devices.

The other thing that has to be remembered is that whenever we go shopping for say, a steering joint, we ask the dealer for the price of a Genuine joint, we hear the price, get a landy mag out for a local landyparts place and are pleased to see the item going for £7.50 rather than the previously qouted £35. About 90% of us (i think) is going for the cheaper version. The pattern parts are straight copys of the genuine item and therefore cheaper. This is exactly what is happening with the handbrake.

Still, I do think that SR could have tried harder to keep relationships going. He isnt doing himself any favours at the moment.

[GBMUD]

shopping for say, a steering joint, we ask the dealer for the price of a Genuine joint, we hear the price, get a landy mag out for a local landyparts place and are pleased to see the item going for £7.50 rather than the previously qouted £35. About 90% of us (i think) is going for the cheaper version. The pattern parts are straight copys of the genuine item and therefore cheaper.

It may be made to the same design but, in my bitter experience, not often from the same spec materials. You get what you pay for most of the time. My personal preference is for OE parts, made by outside companies for Landrover and in plain wrappers.

Chris

[grot]

Well I have never bought off either Simon or SR but the activity has made me look long and hard at Simons site and I like what I see and will probably be buying very soon. As for SR, cant comment as I dont know them but what I have heard puts me off, so Simon maybe this will be a blessing in disguise with the added publicity for your stuff (which looks superb). So good luck with it!

[*lee90*]

i think you should all just grow up and get over it.i cant see the problem with it it happens all over the word with just about every thing.when i see some thing i like i copy it (dont loads of people) and if i can make money sellin the stuff to friends then i do.

[headhunter]

i think you should all just grow up and get over it.i cant see the problem with it it happens all over the word with just about every thing.when i see some thing i like i copy it (dont loads of people) and if i can make money sellin the stuff to friends then i do.

No need to hide Colin we know you're there

[Adesred90]

i think you should all just grow up and get over it.i cant see the problem with it it happens all over the word with just about every thing.when i see some thing i like i copy it (dont loads of people) and if i can make money sellin the stuff to friends then i do.

Although I expect everyone on this thread respects your opinion, I think you've missed the point about the grievance people have. I too will "copy" and make my own bits and pieces for my own use, whenever I can, as you and countless others no doubt do but I wouldn't blatantly steal an idea from someone who considered me a friend for commercial reasons.

I dont know Simon or Colin and I haven't yet purchased from either of them but I do understand why people feel so strongly about this. Maybe you should go back to the beginning of the thread and read it all the way through more carefully and then come back with a more "grown up" response.

Thank you

Ade

P.S. You had better make your answer to this a good one or be it on your own head.

[headhunter]

Re Mr Nick

"On a lighter note we supply and design Vinyl Stikers for the Off and On Road Vehicle world !

And yes the Vinyl Stickers you see on the Scorpion site are from us but dont let that put you off buying from us as were here to put a smile on yours and your trucks face. All designs,Styles and Logos catered for.

You Can find the contact details on my Web Site Soon @ www.xtremelandy.co.uk for any vinyl stickers or vehicle design you want."

Do you think Mr Nick would like to quote for the Scorpion Barred stickers currently being sourced, he must already have the logo!!!

John

[GBMUD]

when i see some thing i like i copy it (dont loads of people)

You do not like capital letters or correct punctuation then?

Chris

[Yostumpy]

comon guy's we all know how each of us feel on the subject, but HEY !!!!!!!!!! lets not start throwing mud around on our own site eh. chin up lads.

[Turbocharger]

i think you should all just grow up and get over it.i cant see the problem with it it happens all over the word with just about every thing.when i see some thing i like i copy it (dont loads of people) and if i can make money sellin the stuff to friends then i do.

I may be speaking out of turn here, but I think Simon's philosophy is similar to yours. Example: He has made an electric skateboard, which interests me. I can't afford to buy one off him (even if his was for sale!) but he's been more than helpful pointing me towards motors, speed controllers etc so I can build my own. I've also had extensive post-alcohol control testing of the same device, all with no profit or benefit to Si. If you wanted to make a disc handbrake and could do all the fabrication yourself but couldn't source a caliper, I reckon Si would sell you one - he supports innovation generally, to his commercial detriment indeed. The gripe is that, advertising and copying aside, Scorpion promised that they wouldn't copy it, then did.

[freeagent]

i hate scorpion and everything they stand for... i've met colin a couple of times and thought he was a rude, arrogant w***er, and swore i'd never buy anything from them.... if this business with the X-eng brake helps to kill scorpion it'd make my day....

it annoys me that the magazines are well in with him, but someone reliable told me that scorpion spend £10k per month on magazine advertising, so i'm not surprised.

i think we should help to bring them down.......

[neil_g]

On the $crapiron website, they show the disk handbrake as this

Hi there, I' m a newbie to this place hopefully shortly I will be buying a defender/90/110 and I was concidering some of Scorpion's products.

Firstly I would like to say thank you for educating me to Scorpion's appauling business practice, I will be looking elsewhere for parts in future (bookmarked X-eng website).

Secondly, if the image above was taken by x-eng or commisioned by them then they own the copyright to the photo and can demand to have it removed. Also a complaint can be submitted to the magazine that published the photo (if it is the same one).

Good luck in the future.

Neil

[John_T]

Just hada a look at the Scrapiron website........all signs of disc handbrakes X-Eng or otherwise seem to have mysteriously disappeared.

Why could that be?

[RocKeR]

Probably 'cos his wonderfully improved shiney news ones aren't ready yet!

[VeryDisco]

Well I think almost everything's been said - This was a business decision by Scorpion, but they knew when they took it that it would be personal to Simon.