EU attacking us again?

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

A few pages back there's link to an official EU blog post denying the intention to ban modified vehicles. At least one LR comic has parroted this.

The problem for us is (IMHO) that any change in legislation as a result of this will be enforced to the letter by empire-builders at VOSA. Remember the 31mph motorbike test?

I'd like to see a bit more of a breakdown of this "5 people a day die due to technical failure" - what's the betting the distrubtion is virtually zero in the UK & high in places where roadworthiness testing appears to be optional? Won't name countries but I'm sure quite a few of us have been on holiday to countries within the EU & thought "holy <deity>! How's that shed on the road how come it hasn't been stopped by the <country's> rozzers!"

I would agree that a break down would be iluminating as to what proportion of the albeit unfortunate deaths from poor mods comes from the UK.

My wife is Cretan and that is part of EU and the vehicles I see being used on their rural roads are often astounding some are straight from Mad-Max or Whacky Races held together with coat hanger wire and tires as bald if not balder than I am .

My point is if the whole EU is agregated and a figure is generated for deaths occuring due to bad modifications or poorly maintained vehicles then we are penalised due in my example to the Greek lack of implementation of their MOT .

[UdderlyOffroad]

As said by myself & others, unfortunately, as far as UKIP is concerned, the more bad legislation is passed into UK law, the better it is for them electorally. By their own admission they have too few MEPs to actually block directives.

From all I have read & seen of the German TUV system, it is certainly not something we would wish to copy. Have you ever picked up a German classic vehicle magazine? A sizeable proprtion of the articles every month is dedicated to satisfying the whims of the TUV Ingenieur just order to be granted the privelage of having your paperwork rubber-stamped in order to enable you to keep your car on the road.

[UdderlyOffroad]

Hmmm I wasn't going to mention Crete, but yes that's exactly where I was thinking of (with apologies to your good lady!)

[Nigelw]

My mate Paul bought a tidy series 2, spent all last summer getting it ready for the TUV, (he lives 10Kms from Aachen) they failed it first time round due to it wearing 235/85X16 tyres, from that period they wore imperial tyres and 7.50X16 it had to be!!!

He tells me they went through everything!!! they even scrutinised the use of electrical components!!! God help them if they'd ever MOTd my old RRC would have made their heads pop off!!!

[western]

if it does come in, I bet those countries with no vehicle annual testing will say get stuffed as it will cost far to much to implement & where will all the vehicle testers come from, lots of cost setting up training programmes to build a cadre of testers & the re testing of them annually would be astronomical

[Nigelw]

if it does come in, I bet those countries with no vehicle annual testing will say get stuffed as it will cost far to much to implement & where will all the vehicle testers come from, lots of cost setting up training programmes to build a cadre of testers & the re testing of them annually would be astronomical

But my question is this, why not begin by bringing those countries without tests in to the general theme of periodic testing first not just flat board the whole of the EU!!!

For example take a basic MOT from the UK and begin implementing that in those countries first, slowly build pressure and momentum until you get what you want, TUV for all anyone?

[mad_pete]

We don't have to bring London to a standstill. Practically it's going to be a Saturday or a Sunday so there aren't going to be people stopped from going to work. Just convoy pass somewhere and get a news item out of it. Have a clear, simple, achievable message for the protest "We want a clear statement from the government that policy X will not be implemented" Then politicians make a comment. Anti EU parties would dive in first citing more EU interfering and then main stream parties make a comment to re-assure people. I think a show of direct action always helps but don't start out with annoying other people deliberately.

Letters are okay but politicians will be asking am I losing votes over this and if the discussion isn't in the public domain it doesn't matter too much to them. Like the journalist that said "my cars not modified so I don't care" need to raise the visibility of the issue.

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Update with reply from Green MEP:

Dear James ,

Keith has asked me to thank you for your e-mail and to respond to it on his behalf. I apologise for the delay in doing so - our office receives a large volume of constituent correspondence on a daily basis, and it sometimes takes us longer to respond than we would like.

As you are aware, the European Commission has recently proposed legislation to tighten and harmonise across the EU the existing requirements for vehicle roadworthiness tests. This proposal comes under the 'Roadworthiness Package' which aims to enhance road safety and to reduce traffic-related emissions.

Technical faults in vehicles are a major road safety concern, with more than 5 people dying onEurope's roads every day in accidents linked to technical failure. A recent impact assessment on road safety in the EU has shown that the measures proposed by the Commission under the Roadworthiness Package could save more than 1,200 lives a year and avoid more than 36,000 accidents linked to technical failure. Please see the following press release from the European Commission for more information:

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/12/555&

Keith is committed to improving road safety and reducing traffic-related emissions, and works hard to promote these issues through EU legislation. In principle, Keith and his fellow Greens/EFA colleagues in the European Parliament therefore welcome the aims of this proposal. However, it is important to be aware that the proposal is currently only in draft form and is in the very beginning stages of negotiations between the European Parliament (made up of MEPs) and the Council (made up of national ministers). The details of the draft legislation are therefore open to change, which makes it impossible to say at this stage whether Keith and his colleagues will support or oppose the legislation.

Upon reading your e-mail, Keith was concerned about the potential impacts of this proposal on the historic and modified car industries and agrees with you that EU legislation should not prevent vehicle owners from carrying out modifications, as long as they are not dangerous. These concerns were raised at a recent meeting of the Transport and Tourism committee, and Keith waspleased hear reassurance from the Commission that the proposals will not outlaw vehicle modifications. Having researched the issue, it seems this has been an unfortunate misunderstanding of the proposed legislation, stemming from inaccurate reporting on the issue across theUK. The legislation in factstates that for vehicles which have been modified between roadworthiness tests, it will now be a legal requirement to resubmit the vehicle for testing to ensure that the modification is in line with safety requirements. I am sure you will agreewithKeith that this is a common-sense measure which represents a positive step towards protecting the lives of road users.

Keith is sympathetic to concerns that some of the proposals may imply extra costs for road-users and testers. However, given the number of road accidents this legislation is expected to prevent each year, Keith would rather see lives saved than safety measures not adopted because of price.

It is also worth noting that the frequency of roadworthiness testing in the UK will not change under the proposed legislation. The current system in the UK, under which vehicles must be submitted for testing 3 years after registration and then every year following that (3 - 1 - 1 system), is in fact more stringent that the Commission's proposals for a minimum requirement of a 4 - 2 -1 system.

I hope that this information has been useful and goes some way to allay your concerns. Keith understands that this is a very important issue for you, so please be assured that Keith values your views and has considered your objections carefully. He has also asked me to let you know that he has raised your concerns with the Green transport advisors, and together they will carefully consider any adverse impacts of the legislation on the historic and modified car industries in any upcoming negotiations on the legislation.

As previously mentioned, Keith is strongly committed to improving road safety, both at EU level and across his constituency. For some examples of the work that Keith has been doing in the European Parliament and across his constituency in this area, please see the transport section of his website at:

http://www.keithtaylormep.org.uk/category/transport-aviation/

Please do not hesitate to be in touch if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,

Krysia Williams

Constituency Caseworker

Office of Keith Taylor MEP

Green Party MEP for South East England

The European Parliament

Rue Wiertz

1047 Brussels, Belgium

Tel: Fax: +32 2 284 9153

www.keithtaylormep.org.uk

If you would like to receive Keith's bimonthly e-newsletter please

e-mail keithtaylor@greenmeps.org.uk putting INFO as the subject header

Update Reply from Labour MEP.

17 October 2012

Our ref ps/ph

Dear Mr Lees,

RE: Proposed amendment to the periodic roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers and repealing Directive 2009/40/EC

Thank you for alerting me to your concerns over proposed changes to the requirements for classic or heritage car owners, please forgive the delay in issuing a reply.

These are proposed changes that have been put forward by the European Commission in July. The usual EU legislative process is for the European Commission to initiate legislation and then for the European Parliament and Council (where the 27 national Governments sit) to scrutinise and amend the proposals before any changes are passed into law. At this stage the European Commission's proposals have just been transmitted to the European Parliament and MEPs will over the coming months have the chance to put forward changes they feel are necessary to improve the European Commission's text. This means that we have a lot of scope to change elements of the Commission proposal that we do not like and this is precisely the work that my colleague, Brian Simpson, who leads for Labour MEPs on transport issues, will be doing over the next few months.

Regarding the Commission's revision proposals, any new changes must be about finding a good balance between ensuring high standards of road safety and putting in place rules that are proportionate to the associated risks. I have raised your concerns directly with my colleague Brian Simpson and while he welcomes some of the sensible changes proposed by the Commission, he is not in favour of imposing excessive regulations that in effect prevent owners of historic and/or modified vehicles from continuing to enjoy their pastime.

It is for this reason that last week he raised your concerns over the alleged restrictions on modifying vehicles directly with the European Commission. In the meeting with Commission officials responsible for writing this legislation they clarified that the new legislation does not in any way prevent vehicle owners from modifying their vehicles. We believe the confusion may have stemmed from the new requirement for vehicle manufacturers to provide testing centres with access to the technical information necessary for MOT tests. This requirement, however, does not in any way mean that all components would have to conform with those which were on the car when it was first registered or that vehicles will be failed their MOT test due to alterations.

The intention is simply to ensure that vehicle manufacturers release technical information that could assist and facilitate testers in doing their job. The legislation does not make any reference to failing motorists on their MOT tests on the basis of modifications to their vehicle. You can find the reference to this requirement under Article 4 of the legislative proposal by following this link

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/road_worthiness_package/proposal_for_a_regulation_on_periodic_roadworthiness_tests_en.pdf.

Earlier this month the EU Transport Commissioner, Siim Kallas, attended the European Parliament's Transport Committee where he confirmed the information listed in this letter.

I hope this response has helped allay your concerns over the new EU changes affecting MOT tests.

Yours sincerely.

Peter Skinner

Peter Skinner MEP

Labour MEP for South East England

European Parliament

Rue Wiertz

Brussels, 1047

Tel: 0032 (0) 22847458

Fax: 0032 (0)22849458

Email: peter.skinner@europarl.europa.eu

I have so far posted the responses to my letters of concern here on the forum in order that we might be able to draw comparison between the stances taken from political party to political party on this.

Cheers

J2J

PS

If anyone is getting fed up with the updates..Just let me know and I will stop posting them up.

[CwazyWabbit]

Keep posting them please J2J

[Simon Smith]

Yes keep posting the updates please, if anyone is getting bored they don't have to read them.

[ejparrott]

I'm still interested!

[Jimmy Two-Jacks]

Update Reply from Labour MEP.

17 October 2012

Our ref ps/ph

Dear Mr Lees,

RE: Proposed amendment to the periodic roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles and their trailers and repealing Directive 2009/40/EC

Thank you for alerting me to your concerns over proposed changes to the requirements for classic or heritage car owners, please forgive the delay in issuing a reply.

These are proposed changes that have been put forward by the European Commission in July. The usual EU legislative process is for the European Commission to initiate legislation and then for the European Parliament and Council (where the 27 national Governments sit) to scrutinise and amend the proposals before any changes are passed into law. At this stage the European Commission's proposals have just been transmitted to the European Parliament and MEPs will over the coming months have the chance to put forward changes they feel are necessary to improve the European Commission's text. This means that we have a lot of scope to change elements of the Commission proposal that we do not like and this is precisely the work that my colleague, Brian Simpson, who leads for Labour MEPs on transport issues, will be doing over the next few months.

Regarding the Commission's revision proposals, any new changes must be about finding a good balance between ensuring high standards of road safety and putting in place rules that are proportionate to the associated risks. I have raised your concerns directly with my colleague Brian Simpson and while he welcomes some of the sensible changes proposed by the Commission, he is not in favour of imposing excessive regulations that in effect prevent owners of historic and/or modified vehicles from continuing to enjoy their pastime.

It is for this reason that last week he raised your concerns over the alleged restrictions on modifying vehicles directly with the European Commission. In the meeting with Commission officials responsible for writing this legislation they clarified that the new legislation does not in any way prevent vehicle owners from modifying their vehicles. We believe the confusion may have stemmed from the new requirement for vehicle manufacturers to provide testing centres with access to the technical information necessary for MOT tests. This requirement, however, does not in any way mean that all components would have to conform with those which were on the car when it was first registered or that vehicles will be failed their MOT test due to alterations.

The intention is simply to ensure that vehicle manufacturers release technical information that could assist and facilitate testers in doing their job. The legislation does not make any reference to failing motorists on their MOT tests on the basis of modifications to their vehicle. You can find the reference to this requirement under Article 4 of the legislative proposal by following this link

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/pdf/road_worthiness_package/proposal_for_a_regulation_on_periodic_roadworthiness_tests_en.pdf.

Earlier this month the EU Transport Commissioner, Siim Kallas, attended the European Parliament's Transport Committee where he confirmed the information listed in this letter.

I hope this response has helped allay your concerns over the new EU changes affecting MOT tests.

Yours sincerely.

Peter Skinner

Peter Skinner MEP

Labour MEP for South East England

European Parliament

Rue Wiertz

Brussels, 1047

Tel: 0032 (0) 22847458

Fax: 0032 (0)22849458

Email: peter.skinner@europarl.europa.eu

I have so far posted the responses to my letters of concern here on the forum in order that we might be able to draw comparison between the stances taken from political party to political party on this.

Cheers

J2J

PS

If anyone is getting fed up with the updates..Just let me know and I will stop posting them up.

Hi All,

Just in the reply from the conservative MEP with a forward of Statement by Jacqueline Foster

Dear Mr Lees,

Thank you for your email regarding the proposed ban on car

modifications.

In reply, I thought you might like to see the statement attached from

Jacqueline Foster MEP, Spokesperson for Transport and Tourism, which

sets out the view of the Conservatives in the European Parliament.

Trusting that this is helpful to you.

With best wishes,

James Elles MEP

Conservative Member - South-East Region

Statement by Jacqueline Foster MEP on the European Commission's proposed regulation on periodic roadworthiness tests for motor vehicles

The proposed regulation, which is part of the 'Roadworthiness Package', was submitted to the European Parliament during the summer recess. It has not yet been considered, or even studied, by the Parliament's Transport Committee.

When the Transport Committee has reached its view of this proposed regulation, the matter will be referred back to the European Commission and the Council of Ministers, which comprises national Transport Ministers from around the EU.

I realise this process is very bureaucratic and I do not expect a decision on this proposal before the end of 2013.

As a Conservative MEP for the North West, and as Spokesman for Transport & Tourism, I am concerned that this is yet further interference by the EU in matters which, certainly in the case of the United Kingdom, have been handled perfectly well until now.

I do not believe that roadworthiness testing should relate to modifications, alterations or improvements to vehicles. Most historic vehicles will have been modified at some stage and so testing against its original characteristics, as the proposal suggest, is simply unworkable. I shall be making robust arguments to the Committee on these issues.

You will be able to follow its progress through the web site of the European Parliament and I shall also endeavour to keep in touch with you.

In the meantime, I am pleased that the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has also confirmed that it has submitted comments to the Department for Transport and I would urge you to also contact your Member of Parliament, if you have not already done so.

Well too soon to say, but it seems the message is getting through that the implementation of the changes would cause serious damage to many people (voting people).

J2J

J

[CwazyWabbit]

That looks the most promising reply so far Good work J2J!

[Happyoldgit]

Yes, many thanks J2J

[discomikey]

great thanks J2J

[Ratty43]

As the others have said good work J2J, almost gives one hope. Personally I think the latest reply is the closest to the truth, the historic car sector is much larger in the UK than anywhere else in Europe and I doubt the government is entirely blind to that fact and is unlikely to want to damage either prospective votes or a decent sized employer.

[soutie]

Not sure of the exact wording of what will be imposed on us, but the Telegraph are running this as a success story for what we are going to get.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9758494/EU-backs-down-over-threat-to-classic-cars.html

Peter

[Landy-Novice]

job well done then?!

[CwazyWabbit]

I'd like to know exactly what parts of the legislation aren't changed though....

[simonr]

'more discretion over classic cars' is worrying as it infers that non classic cars will not have more discretion? IIRC 'Classic' is over 25 years old. Where does that leave most LR owners?

Who is going to loose the 18 Million its going to cost the UK? Not Central Government I'll wager - small businesses & MOT stations I would guess.

No MOTs for caravans - what about trailers?

Si

[Big.Mike]

No MOTs for caravans - what about trailers?

Si

It did mention no MOT for trailers... I'm pretty sure the gov. Don't want us to have trailers at all...

[Big.Mike]

I'd like to know exactly what parts of the legislation aren't changed though....

Me too, the whole things a bleeding mess, what is wrong with the current system of MOT for all? Why differentiate between old and new?

[discomikey]

lets keep an eye on this...

the revised version will only cost 18 million..... so what are they going to continue?

[Nigelw]

I am still bemused by an article I read in LRM where the writer described an add for a heap of a series one and even commented that the new owner would not have to worry about any of the safety related issues as it is tax exempt and would soon be MOT exempt also so drive on!!!

Worries me a little!!!

I can tell you this much, there will be big costs ahead for uk motorists as far as the new MOT program is concerned, I think the hardest hit will be the likes of us with modified cars, I bet there will be a whole host of new "you can't do that" rules and no real answers for the people with questions concerning their cars.

18,000,000 over how many years though? spread that by 5 years then it works out to be £6,000,000 per year, probably enough to cover more staff and build these colossal ministry type automated testing stations like we have here and they have in Ireland, 6 bays 4 for the cars and light commercials and 2 for LGVs and trailers.

It is not the end of the idea for caravans and trailers over 750Kgs to be registered, taxed and tested, they have just conceded that point for now IMHO.

[Sheffield]

In the EU's mind there is little point in making car makers spend millions on tets to prove new cars are safe and then allowing owners to modify them. Since there is no certain way to make sure every possible owner modification is safe under all conditions the only option is to ban all mdifications. The fact that many people get enjoyment and employment from vehicle modifications means nothing when put against the Great Gods "Safety" and "environment".

For this reason, and the need for the Eurocrats to justify their good living by making ever more rules to govern the rest of us, these measures will surely eventually come to pass.