How good or rubbish are non LR's off road?

[Bowie69]

But not in the context of this thread and a vehicles off road abilities.

It kind of is... if you appreciate that being good off road is also about protecting the occupants in the event of a roll-over, but appreciate the sentiment

[Cynic-al]

Yes going from low to high on the roll was quite frantic but atleast you could do it.

The Isuzu will let you go from 2wd to 4wd on the fly and is reasonably reliable as the fact that your moving will usually release any wind up at some point. Going from high to low your mean't to do stationary, sometimes it works, sometimes it works with a clunk, sometimes the light flashes on the dash for a while then gives up and you have to move a bit to get it to free off. The advantage of the stick was that if you put a bit of weight on the stick you could usually feel if it was getting looser. With the electronic system you just have to guess.

I don't know about the newer D-max or Ranger, they're both electronic but I've only driven the work ones on road so can't really comment.

To be fair to the Isuzu Rodeo I have it's lower geared and has more torque at the bottom than the mk3 Ranger so I've never had to use low box for towing but I'd still rather have a stick. To me I can't really see the advantage of putting electronics where they don't need to be unless the system protects the vehicle from driver error. I guess with an auto you'd just put your foot down and hope the oil cooler works

[Chicken Drumstick]

You were lucky, the Navara only had 2 stars NCAP at one point. I assume thats more to do with side impact etc though as I assume 2 tonnes bolted to a ladder chassis is going cause other people more problems than you in most situations.

Remember NCAP usually only crash into things of the same weight to get their ratings. Which is pretty pointless. This means a low scoring big heavy vehicle might flatten a high scoring small light vehicle. Despite the face value that it has a much lower rating.

I think what can be summarised from the replies is that most people need a vehicle to do more than offroad and are willing to sacrifice that offroad ability for comfort, safety, mpg, load capacity etc.

I think this forum is a little unique that the main stay of replies here in this thread seem to be from people running or using some kind of fleet vehicle setup. I'm sure that isn't always the case. So yes, in those circumstances it might alter the answer, although not the question.

So I think it's a little one sided.

If you just want offroad ability and have £7k to spend why not try pickup a whitbread, it'll knock the socks off a 90 for the same reason that an out the box 90 would out perform an out the box Discovery - bodywork!

But as with most things, this might not be possible. A regular 90 can be used for many things as well. Most specials and custom builds cannot. And not all are strictly legal either for road use.

[Scotts90]

The wife's uncle has an 06 rodeo, he bought this to replace a 110 pickup (of the 300tdi variant) and is regretting it. It now won't engage 4wd (just flashes at him beligerantly) and from what I've seen the chassis will need welding for its next MOT. It drives better on the road, has a better heater etc, but he's and old school farmer so the old school defender suited his needs better....the 110 never got stuck on his land but the rodeo has been recovered by tractor a few times. Same tracks, same driver, similar spec tyres.

[deep]

But not in the context of this thread and a vehicles off road abilities.

Absolutely!

[Nigelw]

The subject of Jeep Wranglers came up tonight, over here the jeep is very dominant in the off road scene, the 4 of us were discussing merits of all 4x4s and me being green oval two of them jeepers and a zook jimny owner.

Jimny, light weight and very commercial with tons of bolt ons and mods available and good quality budget parts.

Land Rovers, heavy but becoming a neiche type vehicle due to cost of owning as pretty much the bulk are diesel, tons of bolt ons for all models but expensive.

Wranglers, medium heavy but so popular with spares and bolt ons to suit every budget, bit more expensive than a jimny especially diesel but most here are either V8 or straight 6 petrol.

the only concession made was that the Land Rover was good out of the box on a set of A/T tyres but even with same tyres the others would struggle.

Prepping a vehicle adds costs, seemed like the Land Rover was most expensive to add traction aids to but relatively cheap for suspension, the others were cheap but an engineering excise going SOA then springs to suit if desired except the Jimny had cheap solutions or exotic answers but not being fully conversant in techy Dutch it went over my head

Good banter though!

[Cynic-al]

But as with most things, this might not be possible. A regular 90 can be used for many things as well. Most specials and custom builds cannot. And not all are strictly legal either for road use.

I thought this thread was just about offroad ability not many other things

I think if you want an offroad toy with reasonable ability that you don't have to modify from standard to be able to drive over grass hummocks without damaging plastic bumpers and be able to drive it there and back then the defender is the best choice.

Is that a better summary lol

[GW8IZR]

Land Rover, the best parochial 4x4 by far :-)

[honitonhobbit]

I suppose the TATA Loadbeta is the best work vehicle. It's cheap to the point of being disposable. Fair off road if fitted with MT's. Cheap to run and cheap to insure. Simple to service....

[Chicken Drumstick]

The subject of Jeep Wranglers came up tonight, over here the jeep is very dominant in the off road scene, the 4 of us were discussing merits of all 4x4s and me being green oval two of them jeepers and a zook jimny owner.

Jimny, light weight and very commercial with tons of bolt ons and mods available and good quality budget parts.

Land Rovers, heavy but becoming a neiche type vehicle due to cost of owning as pretty much the bulk are diesel, tons of bolt ons for all models but expensive.

Wranglers, medium heavy but so popular with spares and bolt ons to suit every budget, bit more expensive than a jimny especially diesel but most here are either V8 or straight 6 petrol.

the only concession made was that the Land Rover was good out of the box on a set of A/T tyres but even with same tyres the others would struggle.

Prepping a vehicle adds costs, seemed like the Land Rover was most expensive to add traction aids to but relatively cheap for suspension, the others were cheap but an engineering excise going SOA then springs to suit if desired except the Jimny had cheap solutions or exotic answers but not being fully conversant in techy Dutch it went over my head

Good banter though!

Interesting.

If you are talking SOA, then I assume you mean SJ not Jimny if it's Suzuki, or older Jeeps, pre TJ Wranglers?

In terms of weight and size. The Wrangler is a very good match for the Defender. Or Series II/III's. As they are very similar vehicles.

The only thing with the Jeeps is, they usually are sold on smaller wheels as standard. The newer JK is an exception though. So ground clearance always suffers.

This was my old Cherokee. 28" tyres of something stock. And fairly low riding. It'd be fine on most green lane type of things, but limited when proper off road.

I bought a 2nd hand (new, unused) lift kit off ebay. In the US they call it a BB lift, Budget Boost. All it was is some longer shackles for the rear and some spacers for the front. Cost £90 and easy to fit.

This allowed 31.10.50R15 tyres to fit no probs.

It flexed ok too:

Rode as well as stock and unbelievable still handled really well too. You'd be hard pressed to know the difference from before the lift. And I used to drive it hard on the road.

Off road it was easily as good/better than my Disco was:

And would match a 90 for the most part. The Jeep has a longer wheelbase, but overall length is not all that different.

Probably shouldn't have sold it tbh.

[simonr]

I used to be a die-hard fan of beam axles - until one day (on one of the Scorpion Challenges at Slindon) there was a hill climb where I saw half a dozen defenders & discos winch up, then a Vitara with IFS drive up relatively easily.

The reason was a hole at the bottom which meant a beam axle virtually stopped dead and lost it's momentum. The IFS soaked it up and the Vitara started the hill with a good deal more speed.

I promptly built a 4 wheel indi vehicle. Any vehicle is a compromise and indi just changes the compromise. You loose some articulation but you gain traction under some conditions as more wheels spend more time touching the ground.

Unless you are going to spend most of your time rock crawling, you might as well have the handling advantage and comfort on road and live with it occasionally struggling on sections Defender owners find easy. There will be occasions when the reverse is true too - but overall I think you (I) gain more than you loose.

I have a RRS which is brilliant on low traction surfaces. Not so good in ruts and OK on axle-twisters (Yes, I have off-roaded it!). A good proportion of its capability is down to the software which is doing some very clever stuff - so a Japanese Indi 4x4 without the trick software is unlikely to be as good.

However, you still gain the comfort & handling on the road - so maybe not a bad bet. I certainly wouldn't rule out buying one! I'm just waiting to see if the 'new' defender has Indi suspension - I'll buy it in a heartbeat based on the RRS.

Si

[Cynic-al]

I'd love it if they did the new defender as a pickup with V6 diesel and land rover electrics. Except they'd probably want £40k

[Chicken Drumstick]

Yeah I'm eagerly awaiting to see what happens. I did really want to get a D3 or RRS but couldn't quite stump the money up. Opted for a tidy p38a instead. With 4 wheel tcs it has been quite impressive off road.

[elbekko]

I'd love it if they did the new defender as a pickup with V6 diesel and land rover electrics. Except they'd probably want £40k

As opposed to 30k for a current Defender?

Last I picked up it would be independent suspension, based on the Disco platform, with a minimum of electronics. But who knows, there are so many rumours going around.

[Cynic-al]

£25k+vat would be top end of affordable for me but I think LR are more interested in premium now. That said maybe I'm just tight, have you seen the price of a Kia Sorento now? Nearly as much as a D4! Ssangyong seem to be trying to follow the Kia example of muscling into the market.

[honitonhobbit]

Have you ever driven a coil sprung, manual D3 with LSD's all round? It's quite impressive

[Chicken Drumstick]

As opposed to 30k for a current Defender?

A base model pick up 90 was a lot cheaper though. Which is the sort of thing I'd want to buy.

Last I picked up it would be independent suspension, based on the Disco platform, with a minimum of electronics. But who knows, there are so many rumours going around.

I don't really object to IFS/IRS, the RRS/D3 prove it can work well.

But if it is meant to be a utility vehicle, then it should be simple and robust.

Cross linked air suspension is neither of these. And to make them work as well off road they require a lot more cost, than simply slapping some live axles on.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Have you ever driven a coil sprung, manual D3 with LSD's all round? It's quite impressive

As far I know the D3 doesn't use LSD's. The centre is lockable and variable, so can act like an LSD. It's then wheel bases TCS on the axles with open diffs.

There is a rear locker, but rare in UK. Not sure you could get this on the coil version of the D3 either (????).

Either way, the only advantage a coil D3 has is low range and ground clearance over a Freelander 1 with TCS.

The TCS will keep the wheels turning, but it'll be lifting wheels all the time and crashing and bashing itself into the ground with it's bumpers.

Wet grass, level mud, snow and sand I can it being no worse than the air sprung model. But anything that requires articulation it'll just be a lot less stable and keep less wheels in contact with the ground a lot more often.

[honitonhobbit]

But you can buy LSD's for the D3/4 axle...

I drove a massively overly expensed D3 S a few years ago fitted with LSD's front and back as well as a spring lift. It was built by one of the European 4x4 builders who build nice stuff - I forget who. It was very impressive

[garrycol]

Never heard of LSDs in D3/D4s. You can get the OEM rear electronic diff lock or ARB front and rear diff locks for D3s and the front of the D4 but never heard of LSDs.

[Ed Poore]

Never heard of LSDs in D3/D4s. You can get the OEM rear electronic diff lock or ARB front and rear diff locks for D3s and the front of the D4 but never heard of LSDs.

I thought that the electronic diff available (certainly in the RRS) was an LSD with locking capability rather than a truly open diff with locking capability. I know the earlier 322s were fitted with an NV225 transfer box, which I think was the same as the D3s. That has a Torsen LSD in the centre and couldn't actually lock up. The later 322s (post '07 face-lift like mine when the TDV8 was introduced) changed over to a DD295 transfer box which again has a Torsen LSD in the centre but this is electronically controllable with a multi-plate clutch feature that does allow a true lock up.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I thought that the electronic diff available (certainly in the RRS) was an LSD with locking capability rather than a truly open diff with locking capability. I know the earlier 322s were fitted with an NV225 transfer box, which I think was the same as the D3s. That has a Torsen LSD in the centre and couldn't actually lock up. The later 322s (post '07 face-lift like mine when the TDV8 was introduced) changed over to a DD295 transfer box which again has a Torsen LSD in the centre but this is electronically controllable with a multi-plate clutch feature that does allow a true lock up.

I might be wrong about the rear diff. But I thought it could run completely open too, so couldn't be a normal LSD.

As for the transfer boxes. My understand is, the L322 depends on the engine. Something like this:

The D3/RRS only run Jag or PSA motors, so I think they are all the same.

[garrycol]

Early L322 and D3/D4 cannot be compared as their drivetrain is completely different. Later L322 moved to the D3 system.

The electronic rear diff lock in the D3 and D4 is similar to the centre diff system in both vehicles in that it is infintly variable from completely open to fully locked - the computer systems determine how locked or unlocked they are depending on what sensors feed into the system - basically lots of wheel spin and they start locking up.

As I said - never heard of a LSD diff in a D3/D4. Certainly not a factory or aftermarket option for my RRS.

[BogMonster]

How does the addition of LSDs help with all the plastic carp bolted to the front, back, sides and underneath?

[qwakers]

it doesnt. taking it off first does.