Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[L19MUD]

2 minutes ago, western said:

There is a V8 powered new Defender video from Goodwood kicking about on Facebook. 

https://www.facebook.com/festivalofspeed/videos/336027684743301/

There is also a video of Jim Marsden losing it in his Ultra4 car into the bales and then just carrying on. I don't think the Defender would have coped with that crash....also it would probably have not crashed in the first place!

[Chicken Drumstick]

At last someone has done a more sensible comparison with the new Defender. This is much more the target market than the Wrangler comparisons.

 

[missingsid]

1 hour ago, western said:

There is a V8 powered new Defender video from Goodwood kicking about on Facebook. 

https://www.facebook.com/festivalofspeed/videos/336027684743301/

Glad the haven't given up on that, it sounds fantastic.

Knowing how well my 3 ton D3 V8 handled that must be amazing.

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, L19MUD said:

There is also a video of Jim Marsden losing it in his Ultra4 car into the bales and then just carrying on. I don't think the Defender would have coped with that crash....also it would probably have not crashed in the first place!

Ironically he was talking about taking it easy this weekend as he had a nasty motorbike prang recently. 

[L19MUD]

4 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Ironically he was talking about taking it easy this weekend as he had a nasty motorbike prang recently. 

Only last weekend!

[Gazzar]

I think I've changed mind.

 

I saw one today at Membury services.

Covered in mud with an ifor Williams cattle box behind it.

 

And it looked appropriate. Comfortable

 

Whereas if it was a disco, of any sort, I don't think it would have looked as right.

 

Sure, a horse box looks fine behind a disco, but not a cattle trailer.

 

Landrover are a luxury brand, and also sell farm utilities. They are wise not to compete with Ford, or Isuzu, because they'll lose, but they can compete in the luxury practical farmer market. I know, not a huge market, but they aren't as volume producer, so, so what?

I think I get it now.

[JeremySteel]

I agree Gazzer.

The days of a do-it-all uncomfortable 'Road Tractor' went years ago. As you say, replaced by cheaper, tough, reliable pickups.

I live in a farming area and see what the daily farmer-vehicles are and what the farm owners (the Harrys) use.

Three chums of mine who have old Defenders (two of them have Counties) love them as fun chuggabugs. So do I. They've seen less mud than my new one.
And with current valuations of good condition old ones you'd have to be bonkers, rich, both or very enthusiastic to rag them.

JLR aren't entirely daft. They'll have looked at the market requirements and what the biased motoring journos (and YouTubers) say.
They'll know they can't price-match a Toyota pickup (other brands are available).
So they went for a not-too-opulent comfortable on-roader, a capable off-roader, a good tow-vehicle with the 'Land Rover' badge and a nod to the past.
And, of course, lots of options to increase the income stream.
I refrained from optioning the spill resistant dog bowl.
That's why the first models are a modern County not a Disco.

BMW did alright with the new Mini. There's a still a fondness for the old one quite rightly. But most people/journos just got on with life and appreciate both.

[Chicken Drumstick]

19 hours ago, Gazzar said:

They are wise not to compete with Ford, or Isuzu, because they'll lose

Are there really winners and losers? Surely selling cars isn't about putting other firms out of business or about claiming a trophy/recognition for the highest volumes sales from industry pundits. It is about making a profit, which can always be done on a smaller scale. Even the traditional Defender made money still.

[Gazzar]

Poor choice of words perhaps. If they compete with Ford, they'll lose money. They won't have the volume efficiencies that ford have.

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Are there really winners and losers? Surely selling cars isn't about putting other firms out of business or about claiming a trophy/recognition for the highest volumes sales from industry pundits. It is about making a profit, which can always be done on a smaller scale. Even the traditional Defender made money still.

The original defender certainly didn’t in the end! They weren’t that expensive and were so incredibly labour intensive! 

[missingsid]

8 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Are there really winners and losers? Surely selling cars isn't about putting other firms out of business or about claiming a trophy/recognition for the highest volumes sales from industry pundits. It is about making a profit, which can always be done on a smaller scale. Even the traditional Defender made money still.

Business is not just making a profit but year on year incremental growth.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

17 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Poor choice of words perhaps. If they compete with Ford, they'll lose money. They won't have the volume efficiencies that ford have.

But surely that doesn't matter, so long as they make profit per unit?

[Chicken Drumstick]

18 hours ago, landroversforever said:

The original defender certainly didn’t in the end! They weren’t that expensive and were so incredibly labour intensive! 

I've certainly read in the past that they were still profitable. Just not as profitable as something like a Discovery Sport.

[Gazzar]

Just now, Chicken Drumstick said:

But surely that doesn't matter, so long as they make profit per unit?

Well, it does, they aren't a volume producer, not ford volumes anyway. So they've to maximise the profit per unit.

So, if they can sell at a higher profit per unit, then they will. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Well, it does, they aren't a volume producer, not ford volumes anyway. So they've to maximise the profit per unit.

So, if they can sell at a higher profit per unit, then they will. 

I'm not saying the desire for maximum profit doesn't exist. But I still don't see how that is 'loosing'. I'm pretty sure Caterham make way less money than Porsche, in total or per unit. But I'm very glad they don't seem to share the view that there is no point in building the Sevens, just because there are other car makers who make more money than them.

[Gazzar]

Ah, here now! 

That's quite argumentative.

 

[missingsid]

A lot depends on what market they want to be in.

Morgan were famously in the TV show Troubleshooter where they got professional business advice from Sir John Harvey-Jonesr who found their manufacturing process abhorrent and told them, change or die.

They told him to get lost.

[geoffbeaumont]

On 7/10/2021 at 8:13 PM, Gazzar said:

Sure, a horse box looks fine behind a disco, but not a cattle trailer.

Try telling that to all the farmers round here who tow stock trailers with D4s...

I've only seen very shiny clean new Defenders so far. Actually like the look of the 90 better, though I didn't like it at all in photos. Still don't have any desire to own one, though.

[Snagger]

4 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

But surely that doesn't matter, so long as they make profit per unit?

Unfortunately, accountants, bankers and investors are obsessed with growth rather than profitable stability.  That’s why they sell off the assets to inflate the books, hollowing stable but non-growing businesses and ultimately collapse them.  It’s short term greed, and is pervasive and endemic.

[jeremy996]

1 hour ago, missingsid said:

A lot depends on what market they want to be in.

Morgan were famously in the TV show Troubleshooter where they got professional business advice from Sir John Harvey-Jonesr who found their manufacturing process abhorrent and told them, change or die.

They told him to get lost.

With all due respect, they said one thing and did another! Troubleshooter virtually doubled their wait time.

Neither Peter nor Charles were keen on radical change, but they re-priced to the market and started to reduce the waiting list. I went from being able to buy a new Morgan to finding they were just too expensive for me, (in the queue at the time). Money they earnt following the price rises  stopped them going broke, helped finance a new line, Aero, and brought development to a more professional, (but not always effective level, see new 3 wheeler)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7182857.stm (Not a great summary, Wikipedia is probably better)

[Chicken Drumstick]

Saw a new black 90 this morning pullling an Ifor Williams with a digger on the back. Although the 90 was indeed very clean and shiny looking. But to be fair, you also see a lot of D3/4's doing similar as they are good tow vehicles.

Have also seen one dirty new 110. Looked like it was covered in muddy water stains as though they had been driving through deep puddles too quickly. There are certainly a few about now.

[landroversforever]

13 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Saw a new black 90 this morning pullling an Ifor Williams with a digger on the back. Although the 90 was indeed very clean and shiny looking. But to be fair, you also see a lot of D3/4's doing similar as they are good tow vehicles.

Have also seen one dirty new 110. Looked like it was covered in muddy water stains as though they had been driving through deep puddles too quickly. There are certainly a few about now.

Local pest control chap has a 90 Hard top in the tweed-ish coloured green. I've seen it twice now, and it's been plastered on both occasions - it's definitely growing on me. I still keep thinking I wish they'd made more effort on the layout of the rear lights.

[Bowie69]

17 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

I still keep thinking I wish they'd made more effort on the layout of the rear lights.

I think they are a result of far too much effort, in all honesty.

[landroversforever]

1 minute ago, Bowie69 said:

I think they are a result of far too much effort, in all honesty.

Too many lights and they missed the opportunity to lay them out closer to an old defender which I think would really help the shape.

[Tanuki]

The rear lights are less-than-ideal, but they are a sensible compromise.

The big restriction on placement being the type-approval requirement that the opening of the rear door does not obstruct the parking-lights/indicators (which is why old Discos had the lights in the rear step which replicated the lights on the rear corners).