Thoughts after a day's test drive

[elbekko]

This saturday I managed to obtain a full day test drive with the new Defender D240. Well equipped, including ATPC and the rear locker.

Some background: I've personally had a '95 RRC 300TDi and now a '99 P38a 4.6 V8. My daily driver is a '17 (MY18) Mercedes E-class Coupé.
I like driving, and I like well-executed technology.

Now, on to the Defender. Picked it up around 10 AM from the Land Rover dealership in Leuven. The salesman didn't say a word about not taking it off-road, and it already had some battle scars, so of course I took it off-road.
First impressions were good. Seating position is excellent, high and upright, and pretty good visibility out the front. Out the back and sides, not so much. Pulling out of angled junctions is... interesting. The rear view mirror with camera is disorienting and I didn't like it at all. The sunroof was broken when we picked it up, both the roof and the sunshade would close, but not open. Probably something with the buttons...

It moves along nicely on the motorway too without any fuss. Previous complaints about the throttle mapping are valid, but once you're used to it, it's much better. Stop/start is better left disabled, as always, and then the response when pulling out into a roundabout is much, much improved.
Once you actually start watching the rev counter, it feels like you're driving a faster P38a diesel auto. It revs its nuts off to get moving, even with minimal throttle input.
Gearbox response is alright, and I expect it to improve a lot from letting it learn. I know from my Mercedes that new gearboxes learn *a lot*, and can absolutely make two identical cars feel worlds apart.
The brakes are stupidly twitchy. All that bobbing around you see in videos of the Defender is 100% due to the brakes. So much as breathe in their general direction and you're lurching forward.

After about two hours of driving with hiking boots on, my right ankle was hurting. Something about the angle of the pedals just isn't comfortable. And I've driven my P38a for about 16 hours with those boots on, so they're not the problem
But that's only a problem if you actually manage to drive it for two hours without going mad from the rattles and the squeaks. On-road there's a rattle coming from the B-pillar, off-road there's a squeak coming from the grab handles on the dash. Infuriating, especially for a vehicle of this price. Actually, a lot of the interior doesn't fit a vehicle of this price. Either make something utilitarian and cheap, or something comfy and expensive, but not something cheap and expensive at the same time. The plastic in the boot is so bad I'd expect better from the average Lada. Same with the buttons on the steering wheel, godawful.

Sadly most of the difficult off-road around here is either very narrow and scratchy, or has too much chance of serious damage. So I mostly stuck to easy green lanes.
On rough gravel roads and rough cobblestone roads, it's supremely comfortable. You can really feel the upsides to the independent suspension, the front-end gets much less upset at bumps and potholes. If you're going to spend your time driving gravel roads at speed, this is your vehicle.
The hill descent control works very well, but the button is very unintuitive to use. And appears to also control the ATPC. Terrain response works well, no complaints there.
We got it well cross-axled, if you'd taken that line with an older Defender, you'd be stuck. This one didn't even flinch at it. Pretty good travel in the rear too.

And not too shabby in the front.

It looks a bit less impressive than with a solid-axle vehicle, because the wheel isn't angled. But it's still an impressive amount of travel.

We also popped it up on the lift in the workshop. Here it becomes abundantly clear she's a big girl:

For reference, the Lightweight that was on the lift just before barely fit on the inside of the ramps. This one needed some aiming to fit on the outside of the ramps.

The bottom is flat and well-protected:

The rear arms are rather beefy:

The fronts, a bit less. Beefy enough that it won't break, but not sure I'd want to get it hung up behind anything.

It's got some good jacking points on all 4 corners:

And it has a lot of plastic air deflectors on the underside that won't survive some harder off-roading:

Oh, and the front brake calipers look like they're Britpart, looks absolutely awful:

All in all, I was disappointed. I really wanted to like this car. When we returned it at 4PM, I'd gone from wanting it, to being sad I no longer want it. Maybe in 10 years, with some of the early bugs ironed out, and for a tenth of the price, I could have fun exploring its limits off-road. But as a replacement for the Mercedes... no. For that price I'll just buy a hybrid E-class and spend the tax savings on my P38a to make it better on the motorway.

Edited September 21, 2020 by elbekko

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I drove one, albeit on road, when considering my new daily driver toy ...and was utterly underwhelmed

 

Cut test drive short and returned it

Not for me as a daily driver, .........and the PCP monthly payments were bonkers !

[mickeyw]

Nice to hear a report from someone that has actually driven one. What a shame it didn't sell itself to you. Maybe the squeaks and rattles are an attempt to make it appeal to the Defender purists 🤣

Was all that mud underneath of your doing, or the work of previous test drivers?

[elbekko]

Previous test drives, I'm sure. It was pretty dry when I was out, and only dipped the passenger wheels in a little bit of mud.

[Escape]

Ben was kind enough to let me join him for part of the testdrive and let me take the wheel on the way back to the Workshop. I came in from a completely different angle, knowing it was not a vehicle to my taste (way too modern with too many automatic features, like most of the cars on sale today), but I was hoping a drive would make me more positive. It didn't really... For reference, my first Land Rover was a newly bought Defender TD5 used as a daily, followed by a number of P38 Range Rovers. For the last couple of years my daily is a Lotus with the Range Rover still put to good use as a workhorse. 

I had seen the new Defender at the offical presentation in Belgium about a year ago, and was keen to have a drive. It's certainly comfortable, both on and off road, and has you moving effortlessly at a swift pace, in a nice seat and with ample room. It drives a bit too effortlessly even (unless you watch the rev counter, as Ben already said), feeling quite detached. Which is fine for something designed to just move you from A to B, but I had expected more from a Defender. The steering is very light, the brakes annoyingly touchy.

Off road it handled everything we could find without a fuss. As expected, I never doubted this would be a highly capable vehicle, just like other (modern) Land Rovers. The advantages of the independent suspension certainly outweigh any negatives, especially for mixed use. I've always been a fan of EAS, no surprises there. In the new Defender it can also be controlled from the boot, making it very easy to hook or unhook a trailer. Perfect for a working vehicle that wants to offer as much comfort as possible.

We didn't get a chance to really explore the different settings of the Terrain Response. I think you'd really have to push to reach the limits of the standard setting and benefit from the other programs. There is the possibility to configure some settings, like throttle response and how quickly the e-diffs activate. I still think having to play with a touch screen while off road is a bad idea. If not a simple lever (or 2), I'd prefer the single big button as in the Disco 3/4/RRS. On the plus side, the gearstick is much nicer to use than flappy pedals. And most controls are more or less where I'd want them, didn't have to look for much. Visibility isn't great, the cameras do add a lot but I don't want to have to rely on them. There a several design details that I don't understand or like, but that's personal taste.

In conclusion, if it was my money and I'd have to chose something recent, I wouldn't hesitate a second and go for a RRS or even a Disco4. But I certainly wouldn't say it's a bad car and I can clearly see a market for it.

Filip

[Happyoldgit]

I wish I could work up enough enthusiasm to actually book a test drive but the vehicle, reviews and marketing are not proving enough to actually want to try it, let alone buy one.

[L19MUD]

2 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

I wish I could work up enough enthusiasm to actually book a test drive but the vehicle, reviews and marketing are not proving enough to actually want to try it, let alone buy one.

Same! I had a look round the used Range Rover stock at my local dealership the other day and couldn't be bothered to walk inside, deal with the salesman/wear a mask and take a closer look at one

[mickeyw]

On 9/21/2020 at 2:37 PM, Escape said:

Ben was kind enough to let me join him for part of the testdrive and let me take the wheel on the way back to the Workshop. I came in from a completely different angle, knowing it was not a vehicle to my taste (way too modern with too many automatic features, like most of the cars on sale today), but I was hoping a drive would make me more positive. It didn't really... For reference, my first Land Rover was a newly bought Defender TD5 used as a daily, followed by a number of P38 Range Rovers. For the last couple of years my daily is a Lotus with the Range Rover still put to good use as a workhorse. 

I had seen the new Defender at the offical presentation in Belgium about a year ago, and was keen to have a drive. It's certainly comfortable, both on and off road, and has you moving effortlessly at a swift pace, in a nice seat and with ample room. It drives a bit too effortlessly even (unless you watch the rev counter, as Ben already said), feeling quite detached. Which is fine for something designed to just move you from A to B, but I had expected more from a Defender. The steering is very light, the brakes annoyingly touchy.

Off road it handled everything we could find without a fuss. As expected, I never doubted this would be a highly capable vehicle, just like other (modern) Land Rovers. The advantages of the independent suspension certainly outweigh any negatives, especially for mixed use. I've always been a fan of EAS, no surprises there. In the new Defender it can also be controlled from the boot, making it very easy to hook or unhook a trailer. Perfect for a working vehicle that wants to offer as much comfort as possible.

We didn't get a chance to really explore the different settings of the Terrain Response. I think you'd really have to push to reach the limits of the standard setting and benefit from the other programs. There is the possibility to configure some settings, like throttle response and how quickly the e-diffs activate. I still think having to play with a touch screen while off road is a bad idea. If not a simple lever (or 2), I'd prefer the single big button as in the Disco 3/4/RRS. On the plus side, the gearstick is much nicer to use than flappy pedals. And most controls are more or less where I'd want them, didn't have to look for much. Visibility isn't great, the cameras do add a lot but I don't want to have to rely on them. There a several design details that I don't understand or like, but that's personal taste.

In conclusion, if it was my money and I'd have to chose something recent, I wouldn't hesitate a second and go for a RRS or even a Disco4. But I certainly wouldn't say it's a bad car and I can clearly see a market for it.

Filip

Glad to see the presence of a stick/lever type gear selector. I often drive my mother's Disco Sport (her farm vehicle/dogmobile) - it's comfortable and quick, but I absolutely detest the rotary knob gear selector. I find it so unintuitive and not easy to quickly grab when wearing work gloves. By contrast the lever in the FL2 was pleasant to use. I notice a number of cars going away from the rotary selector in favour of an electronic lever. Good thing IMO.

Reading these reports might at least make me consider having a test drive. I'm not really interested in buying one but it would be good to have a first hand experience. I don't think I'm really in JLR's target demographic, and neither is my bank balance 🤣

[elbekko]

The gear lever is a double one for me. It's not as nice to use as the one in the P38, and for most use I much prefer the column-mounted selector + paddles in my Merc.

And the really, really, really stupid thing about that gear lever: when you put it in sport to manually shift, you can't go to reverse. Have to push it right again first. No reason for that whatsoever.

[L19MUD]

14 hours ago, mickeyw said:

Glad to see the presence of a stick/lever type gear selector. I often drive my mother's Disco Sport (her farm vehicle/dogmobile) - it's comfortable and quick, but I absolutely detest the rotary knob gear selector. I find it so unintuitive and not easy to quickly grab when wearing work gloves. By contrast the lever in the FL2 was pleasant to use. I notice a number of cars going away from the rotary selector in favour of an electronic lever. Good thing IMO.

 

Totally agree with this. I have a late L322 just before the rotary knob  and my old man has one a little newer with the rotary knob. I drive both cars frequently and it really annoys me as to use it you tend to have to look down at it to decide what you want to select. A lever is easy to go from park to drive and drive to park as you know they are each end of the movement

[Snagger]

On 9/22/2020 at 4:09 PM, Happyoldgit said:

I wish I could work up enough enthusiasm to actually book a test drive but the vehicle, reviews and marketing are not proving enough to actually want to try it, let alone buy one.

The dealers local to me target my employer for deals, so I’d be able to get a test quickly.  Right now, with things as they are, I have plenty of time on my hands with reduced work.  But I can’t be bothered - it holds no appeal.  But when my local vet got a knackered Lighweight project, I was out there in the sand and dust and the 45 degree heat taking a look at a bent bucket that was immobile.  What does that say?

[Simon Smith]

I went and had a look, after poking around for quite a while I decided that I wasn't going to bother with a test drive. Interesting to hear what others think though. 

[russianfrog]

Some time in Fall, after asking for technical details about the car, the dealer spontaneously proposed me a test-drive. Among wannabe clients of the new Defender, it seems I was the only one currently owning one (our dear 2007's Puma. I also used to own a Range Rover and rusty Series 3). 

On the road, the car behaves like any modern, large, powerful car of today. Nothing special, it feels like a Range Rover... 

The dealer proposed me to go off-road, saying no-one asked before. I accepted of course, and he brought me to a very hilly off-road terrain, not far from my house (he didn't know). I could then compare with my 110. 

The car went effortless to all the crazy ups and downs. No need for driving skills, just press the pedal! We even went down a very steep and narrow path I wouldn't have dared to go alone with my 110. No problem, the truck went like... a tank! 

So, long story short, what's my opinion:

- The car is too big. Too wide, too long. This beast wouldn't fit my garage! Honestly, it looks OK, but it doesn't remind much of the real thing. Just another big, plush 4X4.

- It drinks too much. I find it crazy - in 2020- to launch a vehicle which consumes MORE than its predecessor! I expected less than 10l/100km, we're FAR from this.

- It is too expensive. I like the 110 version with a few options, the price tag is simply out of reach for me. (I'm also afraid the insurance and maintenance will be expensive)

Conclusion? I will not buy a new Defender. 

NB: A new girl in town is winking at me, her name? Grenadier. I'd definitely go on a date with this one, and maybe more if the boxes are ticked. 

[Retroanaconda]

What engine variant did you try? My D200 is returning 30-32mpg (8.8 - 9.4 L/100km) in mixed driving, exactly as per the brochure spec. It drops to 25mpg or so if towing as you’d expect. The petrol engines are much worse, but if anyone is buying a petrol car of this nature I’m guessing fuel efficiency is not top of their concerns.

Agreed it’s a big car, too big for some situations, and definitely too expensive. What’s the list price in Russia?

[Snagger]

21 hours ago, Simon Smith said:

I went and had a look, after poking around for quite a while I decided that I wasn't going to bother with a test drive. Interesting to hear what others think though. 

I did the same the other day, looking at a 400SE, so top end model.  A couple of good ideas, but overall I was very unimpressed.  I think they’re going to have a lots of overheating issues, too, given the bonnet and wings were too hot to touch. After a previous test drive in 25 degree temperatures.

[russianfrog]

1 hour ago, Retroanaconda said:

What engine variant did you try? My D200 is returning 30-32mpg (8.8 - 9.4 L/100km) in mixed driving, exactly as per the brochure spec. It drops to 25mpg or so if towing as you’d expect. The petrol engines are much worse, but if anyone is buying a petrol car of this nature I’m guessing fuel efficiency is not top of their concerns.

Agreed it’s a big car, too big for some situations, and definitely too expensive. What’s the list price in Russia?

I think it was the top range, the P400. Big beast. 

In Czechia, based on a conservative choice of options, the price tag is over 60,000€. I remember our brand new 110 costed (in Russia in 2007) les than 40,000€ with practically all the options...

PS: Glad to hear the gas consumption isn't too high. I have readd it was "drinking like a fish" (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/02/the-land-rover-defender-rugged-charming-but-drinks-like-a-fish/).

[Nonimouse]

I've had my test drive. I've also been marshalling at covid compliant P&P days wehere a couple come along. The look works for me. The name doesn't; stupid marketing mistake. It's far better than defender ever was. It's a Discovery and always will be - wheras the D5 is just a jumped up Freebie.

They are very easy to drive reasonably well off tarmac - in fact, it's the driver that lets them down. Although the top level engines are simply too powerful for off tarmac work - much like a Supercharged L322

What is interesting is how well most modern 4x4's keep up with it - including pick-ups - it's good, but so are they

[jeremy996]

I got an "Extended test drive" last Friday in a Defender 90 X, (the plush, 6 pot petrol 90 at £80k OTR). Compared to my '89 110CSW it was too much like the Starship Enterprise, but without the crew. It seemed well put together, but for £80k, expectations are very, very high.

Sitting down with the manual and the vehicle for a few hours would have reduced the "how the f#~@ do I change something minor" factor, but I adapted to the auto box much faster than I thought I would. I could get comfortable easily and seeing the extremities was quite easy. It's big; even the 90 seems enormous and on narrow Leicestershire lanes it reminded me of a mates' Chevy Blazer, slightly too big for UK roads.

They had a basic 90 hardtop in the showroom; this was much more to my taste and wallet, but the sales person warned me that the jump seat was not ideal for an adult on a long journey, (Although they've not seem one in the plastic), so this is not a solution to my transport issues. 

Fiddling around with the on-line configurator, a basic 90 car with tow pack and air suspension is £52,725 OTR, which seems like a lot of money, but other than Fuji White everywhere, it looks much like the £80k X, as a huge chunk of the additional options are electrical systems, like the posh cruise control, blind spot warnings and head-up display, together with the 6 cylinder petrol engine with 400bhp. I guess I could live with a much less highly specified vehicle and not feel too short-changed.

I'll wait and see for the Grenadier; the auto box seems less of a barrier now, (no autos driven in 30 years!) The interior reveal promised in July could be a deal-breaker as the LR was a pleasant environment, even in the basic Hardtop.

 

[Arjan]

Interesting..

Yes, the OTR price in France is more than eye watering, too.

Even for us as a business user it is seriously much money..

[missingsid]

What is really telling for me is how the market has changed.

My local LR dealer some years ago refused to get a 90 or 110 demonstrator even on loan from LT. They told my mate to go to Wales if he wanted to look at one. Now they chase us to take demo's!