Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 My existing lighting is dire...1985 v8 90 . I have a huge frobt LED light bar which is superb lights up the whole road...but when I have to switch off and go to dip beam its like "eeeeek wheres the f road gone ..." lol I have tried bigger bulbs ..still dreadfull So thinking LED headlamps? Seen some at £400 plus (pass) and some as cheap as £38 a pair on bay of E .(,seems too cheap to be any good? ) So. Q1. If E marked are they a legal upgrade on a 1986 truck ?. 2. Which are the ones to go for ...spec..price etc? Even links 😊 Help ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Have you thought of relays and nightbreaker bulbs ? Doing that transformed the lights on my 90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 I've found quality of the lenses can make a big difference with halogen (or LED bulbs). Running the same bulbs in different housings has shown to make a lot of difference to how well they light up the road ahead. Halogen can be made to wor ok, but may need to ensure you are getting good voltage and the right bulb selection. Having super bright additional lights (LED bar, etc) just compounds the problem, as they knacker your night vision when you drop to dip. However, even on a good dip setup I had a triple HID spotlight setup and it was too much when dropping down to dip. You'd think you'd turned the lights off. And they were actually superb. If this is the problem, maybe tone down your main beam setup for road use a bit. Light bars tend to offer flood light (wide area). Some tightly focused spot lights would allow you to see further down the road, but may make the transition back to dip more pleasant. In terms of LED units. I think they are very mixed still. And sadly such poor info to evaluate any of them as a rule, so it is a complete lottery. Most are super expensive, although sometimes they are just cheap Chinese rubbish (often with fake E numbers) and produce beams that must be illegal and will dazzle other drivers. Others are just pricey for the sake of it. The Trucklite design has been about for quite some time now. And looks period on a Land Rover. I don't think they are the best, but likely to be an improvement over most halogen setups, unless you had a really sorted setup. Prices don't seem to be too bad vs some other offerings and available from reputable sellers. I believe there are many copies or unbranded versions of this design however. No idea how the quality varies, but they are readily available. I'm also not sure, but believe there are LHD and RHD variants. And I suspect some sold in the UK cheaply are probably for LHD vehicles. Some might be worse and not even handed with just a generic beam. Most of the 'bug eye' design ones I've seen seem to cause lots of dazzle. This doesn't mean they are all rubbish, but I'd want to seriously check them out before laying out the cash. While I like having good headlights, I don't want to blind on-coming cars. There are a number of designs, but a few that seem to be pretty generic found on ebay/Amazon etc. Pretty much everytime I've seen these fitted the beam and tint is awful and very antisocial to oncoming traffic. Plus I personally don't think they suit the styling of a 90/110. Also with LED I think sometimes there is a placebo effect with them. The light is generally whiter (or bluer) which might make you think it is brighter and better than halogen. But quite often they aren't. In fact this is one of the major issues with LED lights (even OEM ones). Ideally you want something in the 4000-5000k neutral white range and preferably with something like 95CRI (colour rendition index). But all/almost all LED headlight makers only offer 6500k with something like 70CRI LEDs. Although many won't even publish this. A cool white tint of this high a kelvin number will generally cause more eye strain in the dark and will tend to bleach out colours. Especially greens and browns and make them all look rather greyish. This isn't to say to not go the LED route. But for me, I'd want to buy from a place that I know I could return them hassle free, should I not like them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted December 20, 2020 Share Posted December 20, 2020 Nige - a (cheaper) alternative to try is perhaps the Classic Car LEDs H4 bulbs. https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/latest-led-headlights-h4-philips-z-es-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v?variant=8239030763615 There's no definitive answer I think on their E marking but I've recently fitted some (without headlight loom upgrades) and the difference is stark. It's not the placebo effect of whiter light but the light is comparable to the BiXenons I had in my 322, it's a very well defined and uniform pattern. Mine went through an MOT immediately after fitting with no issues despite highlighting them to the tester. I know it's not categorical on the legal side but does offer some peace of mind. I've followed a friend from Crawley basically past you and up to Guildford recently with them. He said even with the cherry picker on the trailer, the abysmal road quality and subsequent bouncing around the lights were not dazzling in the slightest. Dad and I recently did a long drive (600+ miles) through the night in the 110 and he's pretty fussy on lights and their colours and he commented how good they were. For £65 or whatever they were and little more than 10 minutes to fit (in a normal vehicle at least) I'd go that route personally, plus I'm not a massive fan of the looks of all the Trucklites etc, bit too blingy in my books. PS there's a long running thread on Defender2 about these bulbs which is where I came across them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Couple of vids that might help steer you in your purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 51 minutes ago, Ed Poore said: Nige - a (cheaper) alternative to try is perhaps the Classic Car LEDs H4 bulbs. https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/latest-led-headlights-h4-philips-z-es-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v?variant=8239030763615 They don't look too bad design wise. But are still sadly cool white (6500k) and I suspect low CRI as high K values always are. Not knocking them, I run something of a similar design, that are also horrid cool white. https://budgetlightforum.com/node/50238 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Can't remember if they do different temperatures. They do for the other bulbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/pair-of-warm-white-led-headlights-h4-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v-excellent-beam-pattern?variant=8239029715039 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, Ed Poore said: https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/pair-of-warm-white-led-headlights-h4-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v-excellent-beam-pattern?variant=8239029715039 Many thanks. Might grab a pair of these in the New Year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ed Poore said: https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/pair-of-warm-white-led-headlights-h4-hi-lo-beam-conversion-9-32v-excellent-beam-pattern?variant=8239029715039 I've got a version of these (which have a small fan on)*, but not installed them, I read quite a bit about them a while ago and it put me off installing them. due to them needing cooling, they have a small fan attached - these have a tendency of seizing up in any type of damp environment, then the LED's overheat. As to Nige's original post, I think the legality of them is very much a question, I don't think any LED headlights are legal yet, I'm sure I read something not long ago where an owner was asked to remove all LED lights off his truck by a particularly detailed MOT inspector. From a quick initial search I found this: LED Headlights – legal issues and useful tips for retrofitting (autopartspro.co.uk) I'll look into it a bit more. Edited December 21, 2020 by Maverik Correction* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, Maverik said: they have a small fan attached Um, they don't. Unless it's inside the sealed driver box but usually fans need some air flow to operate so that would be just plain stupid! 27 minutes ago, Maverik said: these have a tendency of seizing up in any type of damp environment, then the LED's overheat Well they've only been on for 3 months but the vehicle does live outside in Wales at the moment but has been through a river a couple of times during that period with the LEDs on. They were on constantly for 12h during that 600 mile trip and haven't suffered from overheating. Time will tell in the future how long they last but something that's put me off other LEDs (apart from their cost) is that if one goes you're scuppered. At least with these you can carry or source from most places a replacement H4 bulb. Contrary to most vehicles on Defender 2 mine gets used offroad a lot and goes through deep water, Scottish peat bogs etc on a fairly regular basis which is not something most owners of the trucklites etc., seem to do. Oh I'm sure there are some but there don't appear to be that many reporting about their usage in those conditions. If a headlight unit goes after a dunking through a Scottish bog then it's a £400 replacement to get me home rather than a few quid for a normal H4 bulb with these for example. 35 minutes ago, Maverik said: I don't think any LED headlights are legal If you are referring to in general? I'm no legal expert but I think the main issue is legislation has not kept up with new technology as the rules state wattage of bulbs. So I think it's a case of modern LED headlights are "not illegal" rather than "they are definitely legal". I.e. It's a grey area, they don't consume the power that is stated in law so therefore aren't illegal but because they are much more efficient and can produce a different kind of light they can go against the intent of the law. At least these replacement H4 bulbs appear to have had some effort put in to match the beam pattern thrown by normal incandescent bulbs. Ultimately its a personal decision whether someone wants to install them or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, Ed Poore said: At least these replacement H4 bulbs appear to have had some effort put in to match the beam pattern thrown by normal incandescent bulbs. Ultimately its a personal decision whether someone wants to install them or not. These are the first I have seen that on, most are just designed to dazzle the oncoming drivers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 They're interesting, I think @Escape tried a set in his Esprit and found it a bit too much? I've been thinking about getting a set of the H1s and putting them in the high beams though, legality and dazzling shouldn't really matter then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Maverik said: I've got some of these, but not installed them, I read quite a bit about them a while ago and it put me off installing them. due to them needing cooling, they have a small fan attached - these have a tendency of seizing up in any type of damp environment, then the LED's overheat. As to Nige's original post, I think the legality of them is very much a question, I don't think any LED headlights are legal yet, I'm sure I read something not long ago where an owner was asked to remove all LED lights off his truck by a particularly detailed MOT inspector. From a quick initial search I found this: LED Headlights – legal issues and useful tips for retrofitting (autopartspro.co.uk) I'll look into it a bit more. LED lights aren’t part of the MoT as far as I can recall. But would be Construction & Use. An MoT tester shouldn’t be looking at them apart from confirming they work, correct colours and dip beam pattern. The ones I’m running do have fans. As LEDs do make a lot of heat, but behind the emitter. I have 4 sets, plus my brother, Uncle and a friend running them. Had mine since 2016 and thus far no probs. Only the tint bothers me. Beam profile and cutoff is great. Better than the halogen bulbs. As for legalities I believe it is a bit of a grey area. Unless things have changed, there is nothing in Law to say they are strictly illegal. However there is also nothing to say they are legal either. So without specific mention they would require Case Law to set a precedent, which I’m yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted for so far. Thus IMO they rank in a similar vane to running something like 80/100watt halogen bulbs in a Land Rover instead of the 55/65w legally wise. For complete LED housings. I believe they are meant to be an approved housing. And should be fitted as per OEM installs. Meaning complete with self levelling and headlight washers. Although I freely admit this guidance was what I read at least 4/5 years ago. So things may have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 21 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said: Couple of vids that might help steer you in your purchase. Fantastic.....will be delving deep into these units and pricing..superb and thankyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 One of the recent MOT test changes was specifically to cover something along the wording of 'non filament lamp in a holder designed for a filament lamp' IE LED in a housing designed for incandescent should be an MOT fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Only appears to cover HIDs in a halogen enclosure, which are downright dangerous.... Interesting, no mention of the self levelling being a requirement: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 The levelling part is in the C&U regs... and has to be present when the light output is over a certain number of lumens. I’ll try and find the bit mentioning LED in a filament housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 So after some research, The Road Vehicles Lighting (Amendment) Regulations 2017 (legislation.gov.uk) - this are the last amendments to the RVLR 1989 - doesn't directly reference LED lighting but it does outline a new review period of every 5 years as a minimum, in which the next review is due in 2023. There doesn't seem to be many standard interpretations of the rules really either, I would probably say the MOT guidance is one of the more holistic practical interpretations The full legislation can be found here: The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (legislation.gov.uk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 i have trucklite LED headlights on my 110, they work very well however the beam pattern takes a bit of getting used to as it has a dark spot directly in front of the vehicle, if i was buying another set i would look at the JW speaker heated LED headlights as the biggest flaw of LED headlights is driving in the snow, the lenses get covered over quite easily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=jon= Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 I did a whole load of research a while back - from what I remember a headlight used in the UK/EU has to have an ECE mark on it to be legal. As part of the ECE certification it's tested, and that test includes the type of bulb being used, which also has to be ECE approved - so an H4 for a landy headlight. By taking that bulb out and changing it with a non ECE bulb, you are invalidating that ECE cert, so 'technically' it shouldn't be used on the roads. At the moment none of the LED bulbs have the ECE certs.. https://www.osram.com/ecat/LEDriving HL H4 Gen2-LED high and low beam lamps-Car lighting-Automotive/com/en/GPS01_3143585/ Quote Please note: These products are not ECE-approved and must not be used on public roads in any exterior application. Use on public roads will invalidate both the operating license and insurance coverage. I think the 'reality' is that if they are adjusted properly, don't dazzle anyone then you are going to be OK, but if you have an accident and have an over-zealous insurance inspector, or someone blames a crash on being dazzled by your lights then you may be up the creek somewhat.. A lot of the ebay chinese super-cheap direct fit LED light units don't have the right certification for use on the roads either, so expect to pay a few hundred for ones that are. Trucklites were one of the cheapest that had all of the right paperwork, but there's probably a few other cheaper options now. The better ones also have IP water ingress ratings - The Trucklites are IP69K which is immersion for more than 30 mins at 1m depth + pressure washing so should cope OK with most conditions.. I bought a set of the Gen 1 Trucklites when they were on a group buy a few years ago. The are a massive improvement over the H4 units, but as Mike says have a slight dark area in front of the nose of the Landy. Apparently this is fixed in the Gen 2 models though. Interesting to see that some of the JW Speaker models have 2x+ the light output of the Trucklites, they must be ridiculous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 ECE - are European standards... International standards (as per what Diff says a few posts down)which wont actually mean a fig very soon...United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) I looked into the E circle mark certification with regard to another product a while ago too. Its all a bit of smoke and mirrors the E mark and number reference the country that certified it, there is then another code witch refers to exactly what it was certified too. Its so easy to fake the mark as most of these products are practically untraceable - unless from a reputable company (i.e. big brand like trucklite) that actually has gone through the right certification processes. Bit of further reading on the E Mark - E Mark & What it Means.. Is E1 the Best? Ireland & UK (truckelectrics.com) Then you've got CE marking - again European standards - I did some digging into a supplier that gave me a sub standard voltage sensitive relay, the certification I tracked down for it was worth nothing and produced from somewhere like Transylvania. As previously mentioned you can look at this from all sorts of different aspects, I think if you're looking at this from a practical sincere point of view, as long as you don't have malicious intention, I doubt you'll get spanked for it. I've only not gone to some kind of LED headlight yet as I've not seen anything that I think can compete with my H4 halogen Wipec Crystals I've presently got. Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=jon= Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 20 minutes ago, Maverik said: ECE - are European standards... which wont actually mean a fig very soon... I think existing standards will be accepted as the new 'UK' standards, so figs will still be given. We just in theory can overrule / make our own standards up as well... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 49 minutes ago, Maverik said: I've only not gone to some kind of LED headlight yet as I've not seen anything that I think can compete with my H4 halogen Wipec Crystals I've presently got. Mav I was wondering about why this is a problem, I've this arrangement on the 109, with relays, and I've never had a problem with it, it's as good as the eurobox up to motorway speeds. Y'all going far too fast, or you need your eyes tested if wipecs and H4s aren't good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 40 minutes ago, =jon= said: I think existing standards will be accepted as the new 'UK' standards, so figs will still be given. We just in theory can overrule / make our own standards up as well... Precisely, all European Union law has been adopted by one of the acts passed in the last year or so, we are just now free to amend as we see fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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