Land Rover vs cyclists

[ThreePointFive]

4 hours ago, mad_pete said:

I would like to think the police would be showing the actual speed footage and it’s not like the guy looked at it and said that’s not the footage speed, he has gone yeah actually that is pretty much it I’ll cop a plea now thanks. 
 

if we are saying would certain ‘news’’ outlets look to portray the incident in a not completely accurate light to suit their narrative choices that I can certainly get on board with 🙂

Correct, there is no way the footage would have been sped up by any officer involved in the investigation, the penalties for tampering with evidence would be life-ruining. Go straight to jail, do not collect your pension, etc.

Completely agree on the press....

[geoffbeaumont]

1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said:

Correct, there is no way the footage would have been sped up by any officer involved in the investigation, the penalties for tampering with evidence would be life-ruining. Go straight to jail, do not collect your pension, etc.

Completely agree on the press....

How do the police verify that footage hasn't been tampered with before they receive it? Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that happened here, just wondering if there are robust procedures in place.

[Badger110]

5 points is a bit harsh.

 

 

[Bowie69]

Feels like one of those 'make an example of someone right after a new law around cyclists comes into force' moments.

[jeremy996]

4 hours ago, geoffbeaumont said:

How do the police verify that footage hasn't been tampered with before they receive it? Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that happened here, just wondering if there are robust procedures in place.

Video footage contains a lot of metadata, often including location, (from GPS), frame rate, shutter and aperture settings, the capture device ID and #numbers identifying each frame. Each time you edit the footage, the metadata is added/deleted or altered, so spotting changes and edits is not hard.

A number of Russians in Ukraine have received a nasty shock when the video data from their selfies has been analysed by the Ukraine intelligence services, Sending messages on public networks is not very smart. 

[Badger110]

17 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

Video footage contains a lot of metadata, often including location, (from GPS), frame rate, shutter and aperture settings, the capture device ID and #numbers identifying each frame. Each time you edit the footage, the metadata is added/deleted or altered, so spotting changes and edits is not hard.

A number of Russians in Ukraine have received a nasty shock when the video data from their selfies has been analysed by the Ukraine intelligence services, Sending messages on public networks is not very smart. 

If it was a go pro or similar professional body cam type then yes it would be storing a lot of information, however editing an original clip can negate any information from the original as the editing software delivers it’s own information which can override the original.

The clip doesn’t look to have been recorded on a decent camera at all, probably a cheap £20 Amazon jobby.

[jeremy996]

1 minute ago, Badger110 said:

If it was a go pro or similar professional body cam type then yes it would be storing a lot of information, however editing an original clip can negate any information from the original as the editing software delivers it’s own information which can override the original.

The clip doesn’t look to have been recorded on a decent camera at all, probably a cheap £20 Amazon jobby.

Leicestershire Police ask that any video is provided unedited - editing leaves a trail, so any tampering for artistic or nepharious purposes will come to light quickly. My dashcam produces 1 minute clips, (the original clip length can be set between 30 seconds and 5 minutes), they have been happy with simple copies from the data card.

[Badger110]

11 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

Leicestershire Police ask that any video is provided unedited - editing leaves a trail, so any tampering for artistic or nepharious purposes will come to light quickly. My dashcam produces 1 minute clips, (the original clip length can be set between 30 seconds and 5 minutes), they have been happy with simple copies from the data card.

I agree with you regarding the police using videos unedited as evidence, however it is very simple to edit a video and leave no trace and not for a nefarious reason’s either.

 

 

 

[monkie]

I've seen first hand a fatal incident between a lorry and a cyclist in London in 2020. I don't know who was in the right and who was in the wrong, but what I do know is that it was a horrible sight I never want to see again. 

I always think in many situations the truth is usually somewhere in the middle and both parties need to take more responsibility.

If you are not encased in a metal (I include those on a motorbike in that statement) then you should be more aware of your vulnerability and act accordingly ensuring you can be seen and not making sudden turns in front of someone else. Likewise if you are driving in a metal box regardless of size then you should be more aware of those around you, the potential for harm you could cause and act accordingly by giving vulnerable road users time and space. 

Using descriptions like cyclist, motorist, pedestrian etc can sometimes be unhelpful in these sort of confrontations. At the end of the day, too many people are self-centred, inconsiderate and entitled whether they be on foot, 2 wheels or in a car or all 3. If we all just had a little more thought for others around us, this sort of confrontation wouldn't happen. 

One final thought on this topic that I think is wise to keep in mind when ever you get beind the wheel... Driving a vehicle is the one thing that most of us do on a regular basis that could land you in prison. 

[Happyoldgit]

If the video showed a small to medium size electric powered family saloon passing what appear to be elderly cyclists on a narrow country lane that had a damp surface at the same distance and speed would there still be accusations of hidden agendas and potential footage fiddling I wonder. 
 

[monkie]

18 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

If the video showed a small to medium size electric powered family saloon passing what appear to be elderly cyclists on a narrow country lane that had a damp surface at the same distance and speed would there still be accusations of hidden agendas and potential footage fiddling I wonder. 
 

I don't think it would make a difference. Unfortunately idiots have full access to electric cars too. 

[sean f]

13 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

If the video showed a small to medium size electric powered family saloon passing what appear to be elderly cyclists on a narrow country lane that had a damp surface at the same distance and speed would there still be accusations of hidden agendas and potential footage fiddling I wonder. 
 

Possible depending on how it was represented but I take your point. A vehicle like a LR often appears to be going faster than it actually is due to being bigger and noisier compared to general smaller modern cars.

Would say I doubt footage actually shown in trial would be fiddled with knowingly but what is released and the rebroadcast by various news media may well be even if only to make it appear more dramatic.

For contrast with this case where the driver got 5 points and over £1000 in fines even though there was no contact have a look at some other clips where there was no prosecution.

There is a particularly good one on Youtube buy Ashley Neal "A Cyclist Knocked Off on Purpose by an Ex Police Officer?" don't know how to do a link but I expect someone else can!.

Ashley does a good break down of what each party does wrong and how each could have avoided the accident but in summary an apparent ex police office started to pass a cyclist but didn't get past, pulled in on him and knocked him off, she admits she knew he was there but blames him for not getting out of her way and damaging her car (very vocally! and without any enquire about if he was OK), police apparently decided she had done nothing wrong, not even enough for an official warning. 

Difficult to balance the level of points and fines between the two cases, above all else the law (and enforcement) should be applied evenly to all at times it appears to be very random.

[Badger110]

2 hours ago, monkie said:

 

If you are not encased in a metal (I include those on a motorbike in that statement) then you should be more aware of your vulnerability and act accordingly ensuring you can be seen and not making sudden turns in front of someone else. . 

 I’ve always had the mind set to believe every car/bus/lorry driver doesn’t see me and ride defensively when out on a motorbike.

Has served me very well including avoiding eye contact with others and only moving when I want to and not when someone says it’s ok to do so ( out of junctions etc )

I see some cyclists disregarding those around them and become oblivious to the risk, head down and moving across the road.

Then again I see an awful lot more vehicle drivers doing the same 

[smallfry]

3 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

If the video showed a small to medium size electric powered family saloon passing what appear to be elderly cyclists on a narrow country lane that had a damp surface at the same distance and speed would there still be accusations of hidden agendas and potential footage fiddling I wonder. 
 

When I originally viewed video of the incident about a month ? ago, I observed that the Defender slowed down considerably as it approached, lead cyclist decided to stop, and second cyclist ran into the back of him and fell off. My only thought was "stupid woman". There was nothing "remarkable" about the footage at all to make me think otherwise, knowing full well how 4x4s are now vilified by the media in general. To me, it was more like something you would see on "You've been framed" or similar.

I do remember that I wondered whether whoever wrote the editorial had actually watched it, and knew what "overtaking" was. I also thought what a massive miscarriage it was.

When I watched the video that had been linked on this thread, it was so clearly different, hence my comment.

Also, with the example you give, I have to say that IMO I doubt if it would have even made the news.

[bishbosh]

@smallfry if you have no time for cyclists then  I hope you surrender your driving licence at the earliest opportunity.

Not watched the video, nor will I as I don't need to to know that there are cock sockets in all walks of life but as a road user one should always give the most respect to the most vulnerable, regardless of their c-socket status.

Attitudes like yours lead to more animosity, aggressive behaviour and injury.

Do I ride a bike? Yes, a lot, but almost entirely off road because there are too many c-sockets in motorised vehicles on the roads.

[pat_pending]

The subject of cyclists will always be divisive and I think this thread demonstrates why there is no place for "Chat" on here.

 Before a row develops.

Or worse still... I'm tempted to share my views on bicycles. 

 

 

[steve b]

...well , I tried .

S

[Mo Murphy]

Anybody wanna buy a bike ? 😬

Mo

[smallfry]

10 hours ago, bishbosh said:

@smallfry if you have no time for cyclists then  I hope you surrender your driving licence at the earliest opportunity.

Not watched the video, nor will I as I don't need to to know that there are cock sockets in all walks of life but as a road user one should always give the most respect to the most vulnerable, regardless of their c-socket status.

Attitudes like yours lead to more animosity, aggressive behaviour and injury.

Do I ride a bike? Yes, a lot, but almost entirely off road because there are too many c-sockets in motorised vehicles on the roads.

Sorry to disappoint, but I will NOT be surrendering my licence anytime soon.

Attitudes like mine ? Sorry, but I am probably one of the most considerate motorists you may encounter, and despite what I might think of them, I do NOT put cyclists in danger.

It is a shame however, that the large majority of the "work hard, play hard" Lance Armstrong wannabees appear to have no consideration or the "respect" you speak of, toward pedestrians and animals, along with most other less vulnerable road users. They bring the "animosity, aggressive behaviour and injury" upon themselves mostly, because that is exactly the mindset they have.

There are also too many of your so called c-sockets riding cycles off road too, who have absolutely no respect or consideration for walkers, animals, or property either. They generally have a helmet cam, Do you have a helmet cam by any chance ?

[Bowie69]

And there in lies the problem,  when you label a whole group of people as being numpties, or that you have no time for them,  you inevitably nark a lot of people off.

If people said 'cyclists that do this' or 'motorists that do the other' then we wouldn't get in messes like the above,  because not everyone is a numpty in  a car, on a bike or on a horse, but some are. 

The issue is the behaviour, which when bad, call it out.

However,  labelling a group of people with such a broad brush is really introduction, and shouldn't ever be done. It brings polarised viewpoints, and people these days seem to enjoy being stuck in them, largely because of arguing with people on social media. 

99% of cyclists are well behaved, no need to throw them all under the same bus.  Same for all other road users,  you always get one, (yes, even on horse back, just for Mo ), let's just give people the benefit of the doubt. 

😀

 

[rusty_wingnut]

I've been riding (bike and motorbike) on and off into London for about 15 years now, and I've seen all sorts of crashes and near misses, which most of the time come from drivers not checking mirrors or being distracted. I will add though on the flip side when I drive it is incredibly hard to know exactly what is going on around you all the time and I keep that in mind when riding.

Yesteday I was almost side swiped by a lady who had pulled over to have a row with the car in front because they couldn't agree on who went first while filtering.

Edited April 27, 2022 by rusty_wingnut

[geoffbeaumont]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

99% of cyclists are well behaved, no need to throw them all under the same bus. 

While I agree with your point - how many of us like getting tarred with the same brush as people with big shiny, aggressively driven 4x4s, or illegal off-roaders? - I'd say on the roads round here 99% is rather optimistic. There's a significant number of cyclists who are considerate of others road users, but sadly I'd say they're probably in the minority - especially if you look only at those with road racers and lycra.

[Bowie69]

5 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

how many of us like getting tarred with the same brush as people with big shiny, aggressively driven 4x4s, or illegal off-roaders?

Quite, no-one should be doing it to anyone, it helps no-one and just seeds division and prejudice. 

Being on the Somerset levels there are about 2 cyclists for every car on a warm summer day, I don't see many problems at all, but maybe that could be attributed to me giving them space/respect when I do come across them

[ThreePointFive]

36 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

While I agree with your point - how many of us like getting tarred with the same brush as people with big shiny, aggressively driven 4x4s, or illegal off-roaders?

This for me is the real irony, we hate being lumped in as a group because we're all individuals that happen to drive similar vehicles, and as a group 4x4 drivers are hated for arrogant/bullying behaviour, annoying ramblers and general crimes against the climate.

Yet the moment we see someone on a bike, they stop being an individual and become a fully-signed up part of some bigger organised effort to purely annoy motorists.

Doesn't really follow, does it.

There are bad cyclists, there are just as many good ones too. Approaching everyone as though they are 'the problem' leads to good people getting hurt that were never the type of person we took issue with in the first place. It's disturbing what mankind will do to people once they're lumped together and stop having an individual identity.

[geoffbeaumont]

48 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

There's a significant number of cyclists who are considerate of others road users, but sadly I'd say they're probably in the minority - especially if you look only at those with road racers and lycra.

I suppose I should state for balance that the 4x4 drivers round here who treat other road users with consideration are probably in the minority too. It might even be true of any vehicle you pick. Walkers and horse riders not so much here, but I'm well aware there are issues in other areas.