Help with an onboard Road / Off Road Sat Nav !

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Ok

 

I have one of these - a xplore iX104C3 toughbook : https://www.manualslib.com/products/Xplore-Ix104c3-3645683.html

 

This is to go into my 90 I have a means of holding and a DC power usb so that's sorted

It is stripped to virtually a clean install to give the system best chance of running better than cluttered with dross.

So, questions are

 

Whats the best GPS USB I need - and anything else

what software for both using on road ie a sat nav and similarly for off roading ?

 

Nige

 

R

[mad_pete]

Shows onboard gps as optional for that so I assume yours doesn’t have it. What software are you thinking of using and what do you want out of it?

google maps will take a pin drop and get you places but wants a data connection. I would tether to my phone but need a signal.

I would think external gps and good to go but just guessing.

[FridgeFreezer]

He may not want to admit to it but I have a feeling @TSD has bodged a GPS into an Xplore IX-something before now... I would say Nige it's not within your soldering skills as there's no 6mm plate involved in the construction

[Retroanaconda]

I gave up on toughbook type stuff running a desktop OS years ago and just mounted an iPad. Better interface, better screen, built in GPS and much lighter/slimmer. I use memory map or guru maps for off-road navigation, and google maps for on-road. 

[TSD]

23 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

He may not want to admit to it but I have a feeling @TSD has bodged a GPS into an Xplore IX-something before now...

I have and I don't

At least on the earlier iX104 versions, the optional GPS is external, there is no internal option. It's a custom housing that fits on the side, you can see it in the photo in Niges link. It is marginally better than a random ebay usb GPS, because it doesn't involve using a USB plug. The downside is you still cant get the gps to somewhere with a decent view of the sky.

My solution was a custom gps module inside the 104, with an external antenna connector on the side of the unit, with a decent GPS antenna looking at the sky.

With modern GPS chipsets, most people don't need an external antenna for gps - unless you're in a tank, a hostile environment, or are using it for timing instead of navigation, performance is usually good enough with an internal antenna somewhere near a window.

On the other hand USB is a PITA in an off road vehicle, because the connection wont survive even the briefest disconnection caused by vibration. So the software has to gracefully recover from the GPS going away and coming back after a few seconds (most dont). Cheap ebay GPS modules tend to make this worse, because when the GPS comes back, Windows often thinks it's a different GPS, and wants the user to choose which one. I went through a few options trying to make this all bombproof for HoFS at one time, which is where the custom module came in. But that was all a long time ago, these days a hundred quid buys you a smaller, lighter tablet with a better screen, and an operating system designed for touchscreens.  

As it happens, I found my 104 in the workshop yesterday, I will try to take some pictures. I've probably got all the bits to reproduce it, using a recent generation gps chipset, if you really want it.

It's also worth saying that an iX104 isn't a toughbook, both figuratively and literally. They are made by different companies, and if you want to play conkers, my money is on the Toughbook, every time.

For Windows (ie when forced, possibly at gunpoint), my software choice was OziExplorer for off-road, and Mapfactor Navigator for on-road. That's not a recommendation, it's simply what I've always used, and I've never seen anything that gave me a reason to change.

[Mo Murphy]

I do the same as James with a Samsung tablet and use Co-pilot for road use, Memory Map for laning and Guru Pro for off the tarmac abroad.

Download maps prior to trips, tethered to phone for t'internet, built in GPS, slim size and proven reliability in use.

And you can look at porn on it when you're not driving 😁 what's not to like ?

Mo

[JeffR]

My favourite GPS:

 

Hardware:

 

Not so software:

 

Got me coat and leaving quickly.....

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by JeffR

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Between TSD answer and JeffRs that each end of the spectrum 😂😂😂🤦‍♂️

[miketomcat]

4 hours ago, JeffR said:

My favourite GPS:

 

Hardware:

 

Not so software:

 

Got me coat and leaving quickly.....

 

Jeff if your using that map I suspect you're lost as I'm pretty sure you don't live down my end of the country.

Mike

Edited December 18, 2022 by miketomcat

[smallfry]

14 hours ago, JeffR said:

My favourite GPS:

 

Hardware:

 

Not so software:

 

Got me coat and leaving quickly.....

 

My favourite also. I believe that anyone who cannot read a map, should not be allowed out on their own.

Still to much tech to go wrong though, your pen could dry up, and you might lose your specs ....... or sit on them !

[elbekko]

I use my GpsMap 62s connected with USB to my toughpad. There I run GpsGate to handle sending that signal to multiple applications. Bonus is that the GpsMap can show you a different map at the same time, and can be used for on-road nav.

Also have a Surface Pro with built-in GPS, which works ok, but haven't messed with it much.

OziExplorer is nice, but good (and recent) maps are hard to come by. There isn't much else available for Windows anymore, sadly.

A recent experiment worked quite well: run my Samsung phone in DeX mode on the Surface Pro, and open up Gaia GPS. Uses the phone's GPS signal, but projected onto the bigger screen.

[Snagger]

18 hours ago, TSD said:

 

On the other hand USB is a PITA in an off road vehicle, because the connection wont survive even the briefest disconnection caused by vibration. So the software has to gracefully recover from the GPS going away and coming back after a few seconds (most dont). Cheap ebay GPS modules tend to make this worse, because when the GPS comes back, Windows often thinks it's a different GPS, and wants the user to choose which one. I went through a few options trying to make this all bombproof for HoFS at one time, which is where the custom module came in. But that was all a long time ago, these days a hundred quid buys you a smaller, lighter tablet with a better screen, and an operating system designed for touchscreens.  

 

This is going to be crucial advice for those driving far flung places.  Large areas of of Eastern Europe, much of Scandinavia, all of western Russia, southern Turkey, bits of Greece, Cyprus, all of Syria and much of North Africa, Iran and Iraq have permanent GPS jamming, and it is becoming increasingly common across parts of Africa and during military exercises or alerts across Europe and the US.  If you’ll be in those areas and fairly reliant on GPS where expected to work, you want system which will automatically recover as soon as useable signals are received, or you’ll be forever resetting it in false hope.

[JeffR]

3 hours ago, smallfry said:

My favourite also. I believe that anyone who cannot read a map, should not be allowed out on their own.

Still to much tech to go wrong though, your pen could dry up, and you might lose your specs ....... or sit on them !

Did a huge amount of work in your neck of the woods, Stonehenge Bypass EIA, Waareham Bypass EIA, Estuarine sampling in Southampton water and shed load of conservation assessments you forget I spent 20 odd years in Devon! The marks on that map refer to freshwater sampling points.  I will admit to using an old Lowrance GPS occasionally.

Anyway I never got lost, just wasn't always where I thought I was.....

[Snagger]

“Temporary uncertainty of position…” 😜

[Snagger]

3 hours ago, smallfry said:

My favourite also. I believe that anyone who cannot read a map, should not be allowed out on their own.

Still to much tech to go wrong though, your pen could dry up, and you might lose your specs ....... or sit on them !

Rain and OS maps are not mutually conducive!  However, a large ziplock freezer bag is a pretty reliable piece of modern technology. 😉

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, smallfry said:

My favourite also. I believe that anyone who cannot read a map, should not be allowed out on their own.

There's lots of reasons Nige shouldn't be left unsupervised, this is waaay down the list!

[TSD]

58 minutes ago, Snagger said:

This is going to be crucial advice for those driving far flung places.  Large areas of of Eastern Europe, much of Scandinavia, all of western Russia, southern Turkey, bits of Greece, Cyprus, all of Syria and much of North Africa, Iran and Iraq have permanent GPS jamming, and it is becoming increasingly common across parts of Africa and during military exercises or alerts across Europe and the US.  If you’ll be in those areas and fairly reliant on GPS where expected to work, you want system which will automatically recover as soon as useable signals are received, or you’ll be forever resetting it in false hope.

A slightly different issue around jamming. The problem around external USB is where you drive through a pothole, and one of the connections in the external USB plug fails for a few microseconds due to the vibration. Windows decides the gps no longer exists, and requires everything to be set up from scratch.

'Simple' GPS jamming is handled inside the GPS device itself, and it isn't too hard to detect something is amiss. The GPS might announce poor fix accuracy, or that fixes are not valid, or send predicted fixes based on previous course and speed. It might even announce that it detects jamming is taking place. The nav software might or might not take note of that. But if/when jamming goes away, the GPS will usually recover quickly and without any user input. This is the most common case, and it can be found anywhere from military active zones to alongside fleet delivery vehicles at traffic lights.

(There is a more insidious form, gps 'spoofing' where the jammer broadcasts fake satellite or ground station data. The receiver has little way to know anything is wrong, and it might not recover quickly when the jamming goes away. This sort of jamming requires more equipment and effort, and the results are more variable, so it is much rarer.)

Interesting (and I thought rather clever) website showing current state of 'wide area' GPS jamming, by analysing the status broadcasts from commercial aircraft in flight. Obviously this wont show the status in the most hostile places, as they aren't overflown by commercial aircraft.

[Snagger]

Interesting map, sadly very overoptimistic.  We are jammed on every flight through Turkey, Iran and Iraq (mostly the north of the latter two), Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Finland, eastern Sweden, the Baltics and heavily around Cairo.  Other spots around Europe and the Med are more intermittent, but common.  Northern Ethiopia, Mail, Sudan, Somalia and northern Kenya also have a fair bit of jamming for obvious reasons, but single digit percentages?  Not a chance.  It’s almost every flight in those African regions.

[FridgeFreezer]

TSD may hit me for not knowing this but does the same apply to the various other non-GPS systems (GNSS) that are commonly bundled into modern GPS receiver chips?

I assume it's all jammable, just wondering if it's being done & if so, to the same level?

[TSD]

It's a good question... with some variation between systems, AIUI the other systems in consumer grade devices are more-or-less equally vulnerable to the 'simple' jamming as above. Similar frequencies, coding, power levels etc. Spoofing may be (could be, should be?) harder for newer systems.

The wide area jamming stuff will be done by people with deep pockets and definite aims, so it's probably safe to assume its happening. If your job is to prevent an ebay drone dropping an energetic xmas present down your bosses chimney, and even an ebay gps module supports several systems, it seems like a no brainer.

Nasty jammers from dubious internet sources are SO nasty, they are probably already jamming systems that haven't been invented yet.

 

 

 

[Nonimouse]

GPS is just too easy. I like to navigate. I like proper bits of kit, like a sextant, sun compass, compass, lay lines, maps, crow etc.

I use  Memory map on an old Toshiba M200 - great bit of kit, but I also download google map sat images for hard copy map support.

Old adage from the early days of electronic navigation, 'prepare for your equipment to fail'

[Snagger]

10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

TSD may hit me for not knowing this but does the same apply to the various other non-GPS systems (GNSS) that are commonly bundled into modern GPS receiver chips?

I assume it's all jammable, just wondering if it's being done & if so, to the same level?

It all works the same way, just slightly different frequencies and different signal coding.  Some researchers at one of the US universities have even recently managed to make a Satnav unit using Starlink, which uses a very different coding system but has a predictable satellite constellation and so can be hacked into doing the same task, even though it wasn’t meant to.

Any EM signal can be jammed or spoofed.  The Russian GNSS is no differing that respect and is being jammed by all EU nations near the European/Russian border, more so than the US GPS because it is Russian missiles they are trying to defend from.  Russia will be jamming both heavily, as they have to defend against western and Russian built munitions, but realistically, modern satellite guided munitions will have multiple source guidance to try to minimise jamming and other forms of system inaccuracy or lack of cover.

[TSD]

Found my iX104 in the workshop today, so just for interest here's a couple of pics of the mods I made...

   

The red wiring is added by me, to give power and data connections to the GPS. At the left it connects to the motherboard, stealing the connector for what was originally the external docking port.

At the right it connects to the GPS module, a small pcb which is all to the right of the vertical red wires. To make space for the GPS, I had to remove an antenna module which was for cellular data, which wasn't used in this unit.

The antenna connector is at the top centre, and exits underneath a plastic cover on the outside of the unit, so its invisible when not in use.

The circuit board was a quick design of my own, specifically to fit the 104, though I think I later used it graft GPS into a Toughbook CF-19.

 

Oh, and Nige asked what other things were needed, I reckon a screen protector is a must. It turns out it's really useful when 'someone' doesn't look where they are pointing the rattle can

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by TSD
Never proof read until after posting!

[RedLineMike]

i have a XGPS160 im currently using as a standalong GPS reciever which my ipad is connected to, plus my phone for performance logging, 

https://www.dualgpssolutions.com/explore-by-product/xgps160

i also have a XGPS150 spare that id sell if it was of interest to you

https://www.dualgpssolutions.com/explore-by-product/xgps150a

 

 

[WeaselTrap]

I'm sort of having the same plan/idea, al be it with a Dell Latitude 7202 Tablet (which has got an build in GPS). But I also want to incorporate it into my 90 as means of using it (also) for navigation.

I did some research into possible software solutions, and most info I came across on using a PC for navigation is quite dated.

As far as I could find I could find 2 programs (maybe 3) which could be suitable.

The first one would be Quovadis GPS (https://quovadis-gps.com/en/)

It is paid software, and the basic version doesn't support live gps input as far as I can tell.

It has a demo version that you can try which has all the features enabled for 25 days, so you can try if you can get it to work with your GPS (dongle or build in, as long as it puts out an NMEA stream)

I'm testing it now having it beside me on my daily commute and it seems to work well.

 

The other option would be Viking GPS (https://sourceforge.net/projects/viking/)

This one is free, but as far as I can tell this one isn't really designed for use as an navigation tool, but more as a planning tool. However you can add a GPS layer which can display your location on the map and track you, but it looks to be more of an afterthought/niche feature.

There is a windows version of it, but it looks like it's primarily OS is Linux. What this means is that the GPS input of the program is focused on a Linux solution, which is a GPSD server that can run localy.

However, GPSD server is Linux only. So you or would need to install a Linux OS on it, or (and I have tested it and it worked) have an other PC/Laptop whatever connected to your tablet via a network connection. Then in viking you can change the IP from the local on to the one of the PC running Linux and have Viking read the GPS data from the server on the other machine.

This was going to be my approach, as I was already thinking about of adding a Raspberry Pi in the 90. But discovering the ability to use the build-in GPS receiver off the Dell made me reconsider and now thinking of staying with that, but not sure if I'm going to make the change over to Viking.

 

(third option, which I know exists, but the program and all it's information looked pretty dated)

OZiTracker looks like it used to be the go to application, but it looked quite old.

I've dowloaded it and opened it once, but didn't take it any further than that as I found out about Quovadis at that point.

 

Now, there is also the thing about that you'll be needing (offline) maps.

In Quovadis X you can offcourse buy them, and Viking as it is more of a planning program will fetch them online as you need them, which off course won't work for our off road use case where we might not have internet (or download a lot of data abroad)  A way around this that I've found is using MOBAC (MOBile Atlas Creator, https://mobac.sourceforge.io)

This a program that can convert one of it's Atlas sources to a format you can store locally and take offline.

The sources that might be mostly usefull that can be found in MOBAC are 4U topo maps (https://www.4umaps.com/online-outdoor-hike-bicycle-map.aspx) or OpenTopoMap (https://opentopomap.org/#map=8/45.7119/4.7021)

Saving them as an Atlas in MBTiles format will give you a file that can be imported in both Quovadis X and Viking GPS.

 

That's about all the information I could find about it and have (al be it very little) experience with.

 

Hope it can be of some help.

And If anybody has any other suggestions for the (navigation) software I'd love to hear it as well.

 

Weasel