Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Chicken Drumstick]

100% I be unhappy about such an Elise. An Elise has nothing to do with lap times and designing a new car with that focus would be completely missing the point of the vehicle. It is all about the drive, feel, lightweight, steering and responsiveness. Something you simply can’t achieve with a “different” type of vehicle. This new Defender is exactly that problem. 
 

Not really sure what the nonsense is you are talking about carbs. Ffs I don’t think a single Defender ever had them. 
 

True to it’s heritage would be easy. Just make a modern version of the out going model. It’s not hard. Jeep have done it twice with the Wrangler in the past 15 years. The current JL Wrangler is supremely comfortable, speedy and a pleasant place to be. At least as nice as a D4 or even L322. Maybe not as plush, but just as nice. And with all of the modern gizmos. Yet it retains the classic styling queues dating back to the 1940s. Has live axles, body on frame and is designed as an off roader that has been made nice on road. Rather than an on roader that has been given some off road capability. 
 

The Wrangler sells in HUGE numbers too. And while a tad pricey in the UK. Starts for under $30k in the US. 
 

Mercedes also have kept true their heritage with the G-Wagen. And clearly sells well enough for them to keep updating it. 
 

And of course the Suzuki Jimny. A brilliant update on another classic model. 100% modern, yet still 100% true to its heritage and a proper 4x4. Which again world wide seems to be selling very well and is a desirably commodity. 
 

It will be interesting to see what the forthcoming Ford Bronco will be like. I suspect far truer to it’s roots than the Pretender is. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Chicken Drumstick

[Bowie69]

I suppose a huge problem LR has was no suitable platform.

Totally hamstrung small manufacturer is not going to invest in a completely new chassis for one vehicle.

[Jamie_grieve]

44 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I suppose a huge problem LR has was no suitable platform.

Totally hamstrung small manufacturer is not going to invest in a completely new chassis for one vehicle.

Why not when all they need to do is make a decent vehicle that people want to buy. JLR isn't that small and regardless of size, it could certainly have built a design with expansion in mind. The D7 platform is a light duty passenger car construction which has no heavy duty components at all in it. Every single part is no stronger than any executive saloon. Look at the tiny diffs, CV's and half shafts, despite the tow rating and marketing,  none of the components are any more suited to heavy towing than a BMW, Audi or Merc. The same 8 speed ZF box is used in them all anyway now. Why didn't they invest in a new platform? The D7 is 10 years old anyway. A simple go anywhere vehicle shouldn't be expensive to make. When people can remind you that every single utility land cruiser, Nissan patrol or shogun ever made still has larger  stronger diffs and shafts than the latest Land Rover maybe it is time to rethink the platform?  
They could have started with the defender chassis any time in the last 30 years!! Toyota by comparison: 

There's people passionate about their product, can JLR not do the same?

Toyota sold its 10,000,000th land cruiser last year,The 70 series sold around 120,000 units last year, I read earlier in this topic that the Jeep Wrangler sells in similar numbers just in North America alone. I doubt the New Defender will take a single 70 series sale as they're such different vehicles for such different tasks. People forget the Land cruiser heritage, it's now been in production longer than the Defender, has kept closer to its roots and as I said before, ought to be the natural nemesis of the Defender but it just isn't, the defender has turned into a parody of itself.

Just to echo @Chicken Drumstick, I think he nailed it i his last posts. The Jeep has heritage by the bucketload which also sells cars. The Suzuki Jimny also has an unbroken heritage going back to the 70's, the G wagon, the same. 

Clutching at straws for the lineage, whatever happened to the rights of Santana to build and develop land rovers after IVECO took them over? Is Iran still building dodgy copies?

Besides the greater similarity to the Yeti than the old defender, the New Defender actually has a lot more in common with the Skoda Yeti a few posts ago than it does with the old defender. Sad but true. 
I bet if there was a three way competition between the Yeti, the new Defender and the old one in the motoring press, the yeti would place higher than the old defender in almost every category they would use. The Yeti has hill descent control, abs, esp, etc does that mean it could replace an old defender? Unfortunately because of how defenders are marketed nowadays, it probably could for most buyers now.
I doubt many aid agencies, mining companies or farmers are lining up to buy a new one despite the staged marketing pictures a few posts ago. Remember no customers have their new defenders yet, anything you see in the press until folks start taking delivery is staged and therefore not impartial.

People didn't buy the old one because LR stopped investing in it and it ended up garbage in comparison to the competition. What actually beggars belief is that despite how terrible they were, people did still buy them!! It's those people for whom the Japanese pickups weren't suitable that have just been alienated and dropped like a stone by JLR, that sucks. I still want to buy British (not sure why now), it's time the project grenadier were making some noise. I expect the vehicles to compliment rather than compete with each other. 

 

[Bowie69]

LR is tiny compared to toyota.

[ThreePointFive]

But all of the vehicles that are given above have had several all-new platforms during their time and (to a lesser extent some jeep models) are a far shout from their original forms. The problem is we're far more forgiving of updating and modernising for other brands as it's a recognised necessity to stay competitive. 

For the majority of examples in this thread, the only commonality these vehicles kept with their predecessors are the badges. Were they really any more successful in keeping the "spirit" of their family tree, or is it just a case that we expect this evolution from other brands less constrained by their history?

For the last 30 years Land Rover haven't been permitted any significant platform changes for the Defender and what little they have done has been treated like the beginning of the end.

LR are finally doing what everyone else has been for decades, and we wonder why they're still a comparatively small manufacturer.

If we actually look at the market for pickups and utilities, we all know it is tiny. Look at how many manufacturers deem the segment so important that they take an L200 and replace the badges. Mercedes are doing this right now and not because the L200 is anywhere near a good platform, the margins just don't support the R&D for a new model.

But I'm not arguing for the new Defender, either.

Edited March 2, 2020 by ThreePointFive

[Bowie69]

There's massive component sharing between the LR models, even between model generations. As with most manufacturers.

For anything of 'more traditional construction' the investment would be massive because of this.

Think about it.... Just one aspect: most of the suspension design would need to be binned. All the millions of hours of design, knowledge, testing, FEA would need to be started again.

For this model, they just needed up a few suspension arms here and there, added an option of a spring seat, and added a gusset to a subframe.

Hardly the same as making an entirely new platform.

Jeep have had a *modern* solid axle in production for decades, same with Toyota, LR haven't. And no, a late 60s chassis design, no matter how good, is not modern.

LR aren't doing what everyone else is doing, they have made an SUV, not a UV. Jeep has just made a UV, the gladiator, Toyota still make the 70 series, and are still investing in it.

 

 

[Naks]

A video of the water crossing in Namibia: https://www.facebook.com/CarAdvice/videos/1511513768998279/

 

[Escape]

Tanuki, your last post highlights why many here, including myself, are not a big fan of the new Defender. It's (well) designed to get you from A to B, overcoming most obstacles, but you'll not get the driving experience or adaptability that got most of us to buy a Land Rover. In that way, there's not enough difference, apart from some styling cues, with the Discovery to warrant the name Defender. Unless you're after bragging rights. 

11 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

100% I be unhappy about such an Elise. An Elise has nothing to do with lap times and designing a new car with that focus would be completely missing the point of the vehicle. It is all about the drive, feel, lightweight, steering and responsiveness. Something you simply can’t achieve with a “different” type of vehicle. This new Defender is exactly that problem. 

And rightfully so, but a Land Rover was never like an Elise. It was never designed to impress the driver, just to get him (almost) anywhere with whatever he needed to bring. The iconic status only came much later, I'd say LR only started to exploit it with the Puma (which got a lot of stick for using Transit components) and now with the new Defender.

I do want to take the opportunity to point out the advantages of independent suspension. Yesterday we went greenlaning with a Defender 130 (on 255/85R16 MTs), a P38 (on 265/75R16 Simex copies), an L322 (on 255/60R18 ATs) and my own P38 (on 245/70R16 ATs).  The L322 had no difficulty keeping up, even with an unexperienced driver. On the contrary, I got stuck twice in deep ruts and even the Defender bottomed out on the axles, while the L322 made it through. I'm sure we could find terrain where a solid axle would have some advantage, but it's simply not correct to claim independent suspension wont work offroad. These kind of tractor tracks are what you'd likely encounter while working the field (literaly), or when travelling. And even a large part of most pay & play sites. And if an almost 20 year old L322 can cope, I have no doubt the new Defender will make light work of it. Which brings us back to the original idea behind the Land Rover: to get people and equipment to where they need or want to go. With the added factor that most people, apart from a few diehards on forums like this, want to do this in comfort, without having to think of anything apart from which music to select on the touchscreen. Did I mention I hate touchscreens? I still have a cassete player in the Range, but I certainly don't expect any manufacturer to offer one in a new car. Likewise, the new Defender will not be built to the desires of some of us, but it will likely appeal to a much larger market. People who will actually spend a considerable amount of money on a lifestyle or luxury working vehicle, instead of keeping old barges running.

Filip

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Naks said:

A video of the water crossing in Namibia: https://www.facebook.com/CarAdvice/videos/1511513768998279/

 

I am no expert, but the speed they hit that seemed a bit silly to me!

[Eightpot]

Yeah not very sensible - its rainy season there now and the roads get swept away by these storm torrents,  pulling up and depositing boulders and roadstone - good chance of smashing into a rock or a cavity. 

But if it aint your car and there's a photographer present...

[Eightpot]

As a mildly interesting contrast in perspective, I'm just about to fly out to Joburg to prep a car for a car for a long trip into one of the national parks in Zimbabwe - I'd shipped my old 110 back to the UK so rather than use my 50 year old S2a 109 station wagon I arranged to buy a 25 year old 110, was set to fly out in a couple of days with a huge and very heavy bag of spares to give it a quick overhaul of the essentials and replace the usual broken/worn items.  The deal fell through, so now I've decided to have a classic safari in the 109 instead and enjoy the slower pace, noise and smells.

So now I don't need to take:

An air filter, power steering belt, lift pump, drop arm ball joint, hub flanges, trailing arm bushes, heater matrix, a box of plastic lock buttons, latches, handles,  throttle cable, master/slave cylinders, turbo hoses and a host of other things that you need to solve the rattles, clonks and electrical gremlins on a Defender, that were engineered in after the rugged simplicity of the series models.

The spares bag is reduced to a few sets of seals and a fan belt 😆

[Ozzy50]

Thing is , if u don’t like the new one or can’t afford it , buy an old model , simple 

[Ex Member]

58 minutes ago, Ozzy50 said:

Thing is , if u don’t like the new one or can’t afford it , buy an old model , simple 

Yes...  But the whole point of a discussion forum....  is to....  discuss.

[Ex Member]

3 hours ago, reb78 said:

I am no expert, but the speed they hit that seemed a bit silly to me!

Yep.  These guys are idiots.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Red90

[Happyoldgit]

49 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Yes...  But the whole point of a discussion forum....  is to....  discuss.

And rerun the same issues over and over again. A LR4x4 Groundhog Day.

[Ozzy50]

45 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Yes...  But the whole point of a discussion forum....  is to....  discuss.

I know and I’m not telling people they can’t discuss it, BUT no amount of “discussion “ is going to change the type of vehicle the new Defender is , I’m simply stating that the only solution for those who ,like me, prefer the more utilitarian Land Rover is to buy or keep the old model .Thats what I’m doing .  84 pages of discussion show that there is a lot of emotion being invoked by the subject but it is what it is .

Don't take my post as negative or confrontational, it’s not , this is the problem with the written word especially in social media , it’s all too easy to get the meaning wrong .

[Cynic-al]

On 3/1/2020 at 4:19 PM, Chicken Drumstick said:

Think, if Lotus introduced 4 door, diesel, AWD saloon as the new “Elise”. The resultant car might actually be superb. But it would be no more of an Elise than a bunch of bananas are. 

Or like making a 4 door all electric saloon then calling it a mustang 

I think the elise is a good example, it's not the most powerful thing ever made but it's stripped down and basic which makes it a lot of fun. You can floor it out of a bend at 40mph and have an absolute buzz. The 150mph supercar isn't a patch on it as you can never get near enough to its performance limits on the road to get that buzz. Your so removed by the tech to keep in under control when going from 0-60 in 3 seconds that it takes all of the driver experience away. I think that's why the older basic 4x4s are more fun, feeling the terrain and pushing the buttons at the right time is the skill of it, but if the average person just wants it to go through a muddy field whilst the heater keeps them warm and their iphone plays them music then clearly the more modern vehicles are what is required. 

[Ozzy50]

I think most buyers of the current Land Rover range buy them because they’re trendy , not all but most 

[Gazzar]

14 minutes ago, Ozzy50 said:

I think most buyers of the current Land Rover range buy them because they’re trendy , not all but most 

True. The options open to JLR were to saturate that market or expand beyond that market.

They choose the former, most real defender owners would prefer they went for the latter.

But, as we all know, defender owners are a fairly soft lot, compared to proper Landrover owners, so they'll be happy enough with the Slovak defender.

In time.

[Ozzy50]

Do we have to refer to our Defenders (still prefer to call them 90,110 or 130 tbh, or even better ninety , one ten , one twenty seven ? ) as Defender Classics now ? Just asking for a friend 

[reb78]

29 minutes ago, Ozzy50 said:

Do we have to refer to our Defenders (still prefer to call them 90,110 or 130 tbh, or even better ninety , one ten , one twenty seven ? ) as Defender Classics now ? Just asking for a friend 

Mine is 1989 so I dont have a Defender! It is just a 110. 

[Ex Member]

2 hours ago, Ozzy50 said:

Don't take my post as negative or confrontational, it’s not , this is the problem with the written word especially in social media , it’s all too easy to get the meaning wrong .

It was passive aggressive.

[Bowie69]

*sigh*

This thread needs more fundamental self-awareness.

[Ex Member]

34 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

*sigh*

This thread needs more fundamental self-awareness.

Are you suggesting I'm being passive aggressive?  Hopefully not.  I try to be only aggressive-aggressive.  There is nothing worse than people being confrontational and acting like they are meaning to be nice.

[ThreePointFive]

We have all made a conscious choice to use our time to hold a discussion on the internet about a car (of all things) that none of us will likely own. For 84 pages.

 

 

There might be far bigger reasons why LR are avoiding us as a customer base.