Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Naks]

1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

lol, clearly you are a driving God then..... 😂

 

Haha, you said it boet!

Jokes aside, the terrain described in the video is very much like what we have in the Cape Town surrounding areas and I've tacked a similar hill in my previous D4 with ease, which made the Defender drivers a bit grumpy 🤣

Edited June 4, 2020 by Naks

[deep]

6 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

A proper Defender has a native design that is highly capable without any electronic aids.

A week or so ago I had reason to drive along a track which has been totally trashed by the "big tyres and lots of revs on my cheap import 4WD" crowd.  It was bad two years ago but is terrible now.  Huge, cross-axle ruts, deep bomb holes, clench-inducing leans etc. etc. and a layer of early Winter rain on top.  Low 1st and 2nd and my very standard 110 chugged through it without breaking a sweat.  I was actually there for access to a walking track, not to have fun in my car (but it was fun!).  Still, as always, I appreciated the way that well-designed chassis just quietly walks through the worst stuff.  Two days later, I was hunting nearby and saw two more modern vehicles on the same road.  Stationary, not going anywhere.

I'm not knocking the modern technology, just noting that A) you don't need it and B) electronic or mechanical traction control would be even better if it's used on a proper chassis to start with.  But we all know that, don't we?

[Peaklander]

A serious question from one who hasn't driven a lot off road. In doing this, did you spin a wheel at each axle at the same time? If so, what happened, did you reach down to some traction to be able to continue? That's the bit that I don't understand with a standard 110 as there is no locker or lsd at the axles. (yes it would be a good idea if I got out more and tried myself 🙂).

[Naks]

Another clip from the same event in Israel:

 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

59 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

A serious question from one who hasn't driven a lot off road. In doing this, did you spin a wheel at each axle at the same time? If so, what happened, did you reach down to some traction to be able to continue? That's the bit that I don't understand with a standard 110 as there is no locker or lsd at the axles. (yes it would be a good idea if I got out more and tried myself 🙂).

Off roading is quite often about the line and how you use the throttle, steering and importantly momentum. So it is largely down to the driver, which I know Naks was saying about earlier.

The type of terrain will also impact what and how the driver needs to react. And you'll find you may get very good drivers on one type of terrain, who may then struggle on another type. Because they require quite a different driving style and technique.

In terms of the vehicles and traction aids. It is actually amazing where you can get a standard Land Rover to go. By standard I mean something live axle and traditional ladder chassis, from a 1940's Series 1 80" thru to the last of the line Defenders. All of these vehicles have open axle differentials. So it is almost impossible to get them to spin all 4 wheels. And when they do, it is unlikely all 4 will be rotating at the same speed. In most cases you will spin 2 wheels, one on each axle. If this happens as a driver you can do several things. Backing up and trying again with momentum is often a good solution.

It is important to note that momentum and speed are not exactly the same thing off road. But one people often confuse. Also flooring the throttle is not usually the answer and is something more common these days, way too much throttle far too late! You'll often find people driving low powered classic 4x4's such as an original Willys or a Series Land Rover often drive better and smoother (not always). This sometimes happens because they have learnt they need to preserve momentum more so in those vehicles, because they don't have the power and torque to simply blat their way through an obstacle. But this means they may generally have less trouble in the first place.

Other things you can do is wiggle the steering wheel or try a different line. With open diffs it is important to consider weight transfer. You want the weight of the vehicle on the wheels with the most contact to the ground (although wheels waving in the air is not usually a good thing, and overall stability is always important). This will prevent wheel spin and loss of traction. Left foot braking can also be used to counter spinning wheels too, whether they are in the air or just light on traction.

If the vehicle is equipped with an off road biased traction control, then it is important to understand how it works. Which is by braking the spinning wheels to generate load across the axle to allow the opposite wheel to rotate. This can require significant effort in some cases. Older TCS systems also often require more wheel slip than newer ones, but all work on the same principle.

In order to make the TCS work, you need to keep the throttle open, lots of people lift off as soon as the TCS engages. Which completely defeats the point in having it. I think sometimes people are scarred of the noise and pedal pulses it can induce. And some people who tend to be slow off road drivers don't like the fact the wheels are spinning, but this is often part of what is needed to make the system work. Especially on slippery surfaces. On the flip side of this, you don't need to floor it either, a constant throttle input or gently rolling into the throttle usually works best. Basically you want enough throttle to make the system work and no more.

As with most things 'driving', a smoother driver will have a better time off road and drive over things more easily. Sometimes it is less dramatic, but smooth driving is normally more effective. You can still be fast and aggressive at times. But reckless would not be part of this vocabulary.

As for spinning wheels. There are situations when you need to do this, although other times require you not too. Times when it might help are to clear the tyres, cut down through a top layer or indeed to make a traction system work. And sometimes wheel speed is desirable.

Being in the UK, I am personally less versed in 'rock crawling'. As we just don't have terrain like in the video being discussed. However, in my view spinning the wheels on such terrain may have benefits in either clearing sand/dust from the rock or in generating heat in the tyre and giving it more traction. But I would need to be there and try it to see if this was the case or not. I seriously doubt excessive wheel spin would be a good idea. This is because wheel spin on rock can sometimes induce bouncing or sliding, which will simply allow gravity to pull the vehicle in a direction, which on a steep incline is likely to pull you side ways and run the risk of tipping/rolling/hitting a boulder or similar.

[Peaklander]

3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

It is actually amazing where you can get a standard Land Rover to go. By standard I mean something live axle and traditional ladder chassis, from a 1940's Series 1 80" thru to the last of the line Defenders. All of these vehicles have open axle differentials. So it is almost impossible to get them to spin all 4 wheels. And when they do, it is unlikely all 4 will be rotating at the same speed. In most cases you will spin 2 wheels, one on each axle. If this happens as a driver you can do several things. Backing up and trying again with momentum is often a good solution.

Other things you can do is wiggle the steering wheel or try a different line. With open diffs it is important to consider weight transfer. You want the weight of the vehicle on the wheels with the most contact to the ground (although wheels waving in the air is not usually a good thing, and overall stability is always important). This will prevent wheel spin and loss of traction. Left foot braking can also be used to counter spinning wheels too, whether they are in the air or just light on traction.

What a great reply. Thank you for taking the time to write it. As you can see from what I've quoted, I was talking about inadvertently spinning the wheels rather than deliberately doing it.

If you concentrate on weighing down the side with better contact, I presume that will tend to exacerbate the lack of traction at the less grippy wheel. So then the left foot braking is I suppose the only other tool left once there is a wheel spinning at each axle (or at least not gripping). That and reversing and trying again. Have I got that correct?

 

It does take me back many years to driving a Fordson Major at my in-law's farm. I once got it stuck good and proper. These tractors had a link across dual brake pedals so that they could be used separately. Eventually my Father-in-law came to sort me out. Jumped on (no cab) and very easily managed to drive back out on the throttle and using the footbrake.

 

[deep]

Chicken Drumsticks's answer is truly excellent!  I'll just add that, with most old school Land Rovers, it actually takes a really bad track to unload you diagonal wheels.  They have an absolute tenacity when it comes to finding the ground and following the contours.  However, as you cross the axles more and more, one side of the axle starts to carry more weight, which means it gets proportionally more grip than the other side.  Excess use of throttle will increasingly tend to break the grip on the unloaded wheel before it actually starts waving in the air.  Controlling momentum and throttle together will get you past  these points, most of the time.  If you think about it, you don't actually sit in one cross-axled configuration while you move - it's a transitional thing, so you just need the impetus to pass that point, rather than trying to immediately force all your power into the loaded wheels, which are carrying the drive for that short period of time.  Too much impetus and you will start to bounce, something you will quickly regret.  Generally I start with a little bit.  IF it's not enough, I'll try again with a little more but I will very rarely just floor it.

Of course, traction control reduces the need for impetus and comes into it's own when you are crawling (or maybe bouncing, in extreme cases).  However, because most leaf/coil sprung Land Rovers are so good at keeping their wheels on the ground, it's just not an issue for most people, most of the time!  Incidentally, the coil suspension works better than leaf springs, not because of greater travel (as a lot people think) but because the way the axles respond to obstacles, dictated by suspension geometry, is better; and also because leaves have an element of stickiness (stiction) which lowers their responsiveness to subtle changes in the terrain.

With experience comes the "feel" which allows intuitive control of impetus and throttle.  As Chicken Drumstick sort of pointed out, the modern method of throwing power at every problem will not give you that feel!  It will break transmission components though...

[deep]

I took this screenshot from one of the Island Rover(?) videos.  It just struck me that it shows a purpose-built off-road vehicle, next to an all-road car, next to a purpose-built off-road vehicle.  Seeing the three of them, in roughly the same colour, parked together hammered it home to me.

[Maverik]

18 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Off roading is quite often about the line and how you use the throttle, steering and importantly momentum. So it is largely down to the driver, which I know Naks was saying about earlier....

A well balanced post for sure, quite interesting, as whether you've maybe intended to or not, you've pretty much covered most "chapters" of the land rover "how too" off road driving course.

I was trained by Land Rover on how to offroad drive and train other drivers in offroad driving for the Mountain Rescue, most of their defender 110'S are standard set-ups from a vehicle capability side, they'll usually be top heavy and fully loaded - there are no electronics that can substitute a good driver and they're understanding of why and how a vehicle reacts like it does.

[Ed Poore]

17 hours ago, Peaklander said:

It does take me back many years to driving a Fordson Major at my in-law's farm. I once got it stuck good and proper. These tractors had a link across dual brake pedals so that they could be used separately. Eventually my Father-in-law came to sort me out. Jumped on (no cab) and very easily managed to drive back out on the throttle and using the footbrake.

Incidentally the situation you described is a (very) useful by product of why almost all tractors have independent brakes. The main reason is steering...

Shove a heavy load on the back or lower a plough in the ground and suddenly your front wheels are no longer on the ground (or with enough weight on them to be useful) so they're how you steer in those situations.

Also used for turning on steep slopes or crossing side slopes without having to dangerously shift weight by turning the front wheels.

[Naks]

 

[Naks]

 

 

[andy _1]

It's in Hebrew I think Israel but we all can speak landrover. It's not a patch on the old ones ie real ones.

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by western
Merged from Defender forum, to keep all new model stuff in the same place

[Naks]

Review from Moldova, including some off-roading

 

 

[Naks]

the first mod didn't take long at all!!!

 

[Snagger]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:04 PM, Chicken Drumstick said:

 

Being in the UK, I am personally less versed in 'rock crawling'. As we just don't have terrain like in the video being discussed. However, in my view spinning the wheels on such terrain may have benefits in either clearing sand/dust from the rock or in generating heat in the tyre and giving it more traction. But I would need to be there and try it to see if this was the case or not. I seriously doubt excessive wheel spin would be a good idea. This is because wheel spin on rock can sometimes induce bouncing or sliding, which will simply allow gravity to pull the vehicle in a direction, which on a steep incline is likely to pull you side ways and run the risk of tipping/rolling/hitting a boulder or similar.

Having wheels spinning in the air is bad because once it comes down onto a surface with traction, things can easily go bang.

[Ex Member]

The problem the new thing compared to the old things in those videos is all in the tyres. They new more sidewall and lower pressures.

[Naks]

 

[Naks]

Accessory Fitting Instructions: http://accessories-instructions.landrover.com/enUSA/new-defender

 

[elbekko]

2 hours ago, Naks said:

 

That rear diff looks a bit vulnerable.

[deep]

2 hours ago, elbekko said:

That rear diff looks a bit vulnerable.

The exhaust even more so!  In early spy shots, it looked better routed between suspension member and diff.  Or is the camera angle deceiving me?  That pipe on the diff had better not be important...  

[elbekko]

That pipe isn't there anymore on the production model, so probably just an extra sensor for development.

The exhaust pipe next to the diff may get a few dings, otherwise it looks pretty well tucked away.

I wonder what that nicely machined but empty bit on the diff is, almost looks like something wasn't installed?

[Snagger]

7 minutes ago, elbekko said:

 

I wonder what that nicely machined but empty bit on the diff is, almost looks like something wasn't installed?

Probably McGoverns idea of a PTO.

[reb78]

55 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Probably McGoverns idea of a PTO.

Its his 'nod' to a PTO (like the rest of the vehicle is a 'nod' to the actual Disco3 err sorry, meant to type Defender)

[Anderzander]

On 6/6/2020 at 9:06 PM, andy _1 said:

It's in Hebrew I think Israel but we all can speak landrover. It's not a patch on the old ones ie real ones.

That 90 was quite heavily modified - lots of travel front and back, and either running the XS traction control Set up or lockers I would think ?