Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[Peaklander]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

Even the profits disappear overseas given that they are Indian owned.

I have had this discussion so many times since the Japanese transplants, as they used to be referred to, first arrived here in the 1980s.

If you make a profit on a vehicle sale, at the top level, then yes, simply you could say that it goes to Head office's country. However the costs on which that profit was made are scattered all over and there are lots of 'sales' that are made to produce those costs, which should each also have an element of profit.

You could say simply that Item A is made in the UK, so there 'is profit' at that company on their sale. There are also bought costs that go into item A's production and each of those should also generate a profit at the suppliers. It could be the equipment installer, or the contractors that run new cables to the lights. It could be at the butty van outside where 'the workers' spend some of their salary.

It goes on and on. Someone's cost also has an element of other peoples' profit. If we are "doing stuff" in the UK, then it is better than not. Even no profit would still generate activity and taxes that are paid locally.

 

As for the source of parts, the aforementioned transplants had to localise parts to the EU. 80% of vehicle cost was required to be able to sell across the EU countries. I don't know how that has changed and I certainly don't know the source of the Defender or Jag. parts but I would guess that many are still EU sourced. I could find out.

[Snagger]

I agree with that, but the benefits of LR are no better than those that Ford, Honda, Nissan or other plants in the UK bring.  I still think it a real pity that Grenadier isn’t UK built, or even just UK assembled given the source of their major components.

[Retroanaconda]

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

Except the parts manufacture, all in China and India.  So, the design and marketing and now just some of the assembly is British.  Even the profits disappear overseas given that they are Indian owned.

You do talk some nonsense. Please provide the breakdown of parts manufacture by country to substantiate your claim.

For info - the pieces I’ve had off mine while working on it have had ‘made in stamps’ ranging from the UK to India, with most being European sources. Poland is a common one, along with Germany. 

[deep]

23 hours ago, steve b said:

Fixed that for you 

 

Steve

No, you didn't.  My '80s vehicles fitted that description well.

[Peaklander]

6 hours ago, Snagger said:

the benefits of LR are no better than those that Ford, Honda, Nissan or other plants in the UK bring

You wouldn't believe the improvement in the knowledge and performance of parts suppliers in the UK - EU during the period from 1980 - 2000 that was directly due to the demands of Nissan, Honda and Toyota. They were helped in development of their parts quality, cost and on-time delivery, by those assembly plants and the benefit spread to 'non Japan' plants too.

If you read The Machine That Changed the World, you will know this. If you then read Lean Thinking, then you will also know how the existing brownfield sites (assembly and suppliers) then followed suit and learnt how to 'right-size' their manufacturing and turn from batch and queue to cells. It has been a monumental change.

[Snagger]

9 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

You do talk some nonsense. Please provide the breakdown of parts manufacture by country to substantiate your claim.

For info - the pieces I’ve had off mine while working on it have had ‘made in stamps’ ranging from the UK to India, with most being European sources. Poland is a common one, along with Germany. 

It’s mild exaggeration to make the point that you have just compounded - much less of the components are UK sourced.  Does it matter if they are from EU states, especially now the UK is out, or from Asia?  The point is that from a British perspective, those jobs and that profit has been lost.  The benefit modern LR provides the UK is heavily reduced by all the foreign outsourcing and the foreign ownership.   It similarly affects any business that outsources overseas from its host nation and any that is foreign owned, but the level of this occurrence seems to particularly afflict British industry and infrastructure.

[Retroanaconda]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

It’s mild exaggeration to make the point that you have just compounded - much less of the components are UK sourced.  Does it matter if they are from EU states, especially now the UK is out, or from Asia?  

It does if you are claiming the latter, yes.

Quote

The point is that from a British perspective, those jobs and that profit has been lost.  The benefit modern LR provides the UK is heavily reduced by all the foreign outsourcing and the foreign ownership.   It similarly affects any business that outsources overseas from its host nation and any that is foreign owned, but the level of this occurrence seems to particularly afflict British industry and infrastructure.

I really don’t understand this mindset, a car maker will source its bits from wherever it feels it can get the best balance of cost and quality for its needs. Why it matters whether that’s in one country or another is lost on me, it’s a global industry.

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

It does if you are claiming the latter, yes.

I really don’t understand this mindset, a car maker will source its bits from wherever it feels it can get the best balance of cost and quality for its needs. Why it matters whether that’s in one country or another is lost on me, it’s a global industry.

It is in response to someone else’s comment above that LR production in the UK is a huge benefit to the nation.  I am saying that there is a benefit, but not as big as it was when the parts and materials were UK sourced.  With foreign supplied materials and parts, those jobs and that money goes overseas and is lost to our economy, as are the overall profits which go to overseas owners and stakeholders.  That is nothing specific to LR - as I said, it applies to any company or organisation with overseas suppliers or owners, regardless of which nation they operate in, but it does appear that the UK is uniquely over-outsourced and foreign owned, especially infrastructure, and that is heavily damaging the economy with money flowing out like water from a colander.  As such, it makes not a jot of difference for an organisation which other nations that money goes to, even within the EU, so your claim to the contrary is completely wrong - explain why you think that for the UK economy, LR buying a component from India is financially different from buying the same parts at the same price from Poland (to use specific nationalities you gave), and how buying those parts is not worse for the UK economy than buying those parts from a UK supplier?  Tell me how Tata’s ownership of JLR and the profits going to India increases the UK GDP.

[Retroanaconda]

I just corrected your point on the countries they have sourced from, I’ve not made any claims about how the U.K. economy is affected for better or worse.

I don’t disagree that there is a difference between sourcing entirely within the U.K. and sourcing elsewhere and winners and losers within that, my point was simply that I don’t understand why people make such a big issue over it in a global economy. 

[jeremy996]

Economic theory makes a big song and dance about comparative advantages. The UK is considered a high wage economy, so generally manual and low added value tasks would tend to go overseas.

In the long term that can starve the local economy of skills, (and capital), and if free-marketeers are given free-reign, you lose strategic capabilities, like making steel from ore, designing avionics software or shipbuilding, making data chips or processers.

The loss of lower level jobs also has social implications, which could lead to riots, revolution and anarchy.

The green ''revolution'' has not helped here; relying on imported coal may make the CO2 stats look better for the UK, but makes damn-all difference to the world, exporting pollution is not a solution! 

[Snagger]

Thank you Jeremy.  That is exactly my point.

AI is going to make it far worse.  Musk said yesterday that AI will eliminate the need for jobs.  I think that is one of the few truthful things he has said.  Whether AI attacks humanity or just leads to such destitution and social breakdown that humans all turn on each other out of utter desperation, it it highly plausible to lead to the end of civilisation, so jobs may well indeed be unnecessary.

[Retroanaconda]

Tinfoil hats abound, we’re all doomed 

[Peaklander]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

Whether AI attacks humanity or just leads to such destitution and social breakdown that humans all turn on each other out of utter desperation

Hopefully there are other options too and just to lighten the discussion, who remembers the assurances that "computers will lead to the paper-less office"? That hasn't quite happened, even after the ~40 years since the IBM-PC was released.

[steve b]

6 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

Hopefully there are other options too and just to lighten the discussion, who remembers the assurances that "computers will lead to the paper-less office"? That hasn't quite happened, even after the ~40 years since the IBM-PC was released.

Then there is the LHC black hole and Y2K to name a couple more...

Cats are another example - in the first 10 years scrap ones had little value due to no recycling specialists - now they are valuable enough to steal off parked cars along with DPF's too.

foil hat on and pitch fork to hand.....

Steve

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Peaklander said:

Hopefully there are other options too and just to lighten the discussion, who remembers the assurances that "computers will lead to the paper-less office"? That hasn't quite happened, even after the ~40 years since the IBM-PC was released.

Somewhat off topic.

But I would say it has. I haven't printed anything for work for over 3 years and don't use any paper notepads or anything.

[landroversforever]

4 hours ago, Peaklander said:

Hopefully there are other options too and just to lighten the discussion, who remembers the assurances that "computers will lead to the paper-less office"? That hasn't quite happened, even after the ~40 years since the IBM-PC was released.

Culham still relies on so much paper . 

[elbekko]

15 hours ago, Snagger said:

Thank you Jeremy.  That is exactly my point.

AI is going to make it far worse.  Musk said yesterday that AI will eliminate the need for jobs.  I think that is one of the few truthful things he has said.  Whether AI attacks humanity or just leads to such destitution and social breakdown that humans all turn on each other out of utter desperation, it it highly plausible to lead to the end of civilisation, so jobs may well indeed be unnecessary.

Oh come on, stop it already.

AI as it exists today is still very far removed from actual intelligence. All they've managed to do is make a language model that sounds convincing. Not accurate, not correct, just convincing.

But oh no, an "AI" can write a convincing-sounding paper on why the earth is flat, the world is ending!

As with all technical advancement, work changes, but doesn't get eliminated altogether. If that means more people need to start telling computers what to do, then that is what the workforce will shift to.

Ol' Musky is just trying to drum up interest in his AI company, I'm sure.

[Bowie69]

People will always want more, and not fall behind other countries, therefore they will work, a different form for sure, just as with feudel system changes, industrial revolution, but it will still be work. 

[Snagger]

5 hours ago, elbekko said:

Oh come on, stop it already.

AI as it exists today is still very far removed from actual intelligence. All they've managed to do is make a language model that sounds convincing. Not accurate, not correct, just convincing.

But oh no, an "AI" can write a convincing-sounding paper on why the earth is flat, the world is ending!

As with all technical advancement, work changes, but doesn't get eliminated altogether. If that means more people need to start telling computers what to do, then that is what the workforce will shift to.

Ol' Musky is just trying to drum up interest in his AI company, I'm sure.

Regardless of how “intelligent” AI gets, if it displaces enough jobs, societal collapse could follow.  Will it happen?  Who knows?  They have been predicting advanced robots for decades and most of it has never happened - remember “Tomorrow’s World “?  But if that sort of tech does come about and replace the bulk of workers without other tasks and income for them, then there will be massive problems globally,  not just domestically.

[Bowie69]

I'm beginning to wonder if this has wandered off topic a touch. 

[Happyoldgit]

2 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if this has wandered off topic a touch. 

Just a touch....

 

[deep]

Only a touch - the subject of this thread is largely put together by robots...

(Sorry, couldn't help it!)

[Peaklander]

22 hours ago, deep said:

largely put together by robots

 

[Lightning]

On 10/16/2018 at 3:07 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

That Grenadier thing is going to cost shedloads if it ever gets built.

Well, that was an accurate prediction. Basic 2-seater van version starts at £65,000 and the cheapest car version is £75,000

[FridgeFreezer]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:26 PM, Snagger said:

Except the parts manufacture, all in China and India.  So, the design and marketing and now just some of the assembly is British.  Even the profits disappear overseas given that they are Indian owned.

Some years ago (before the new Defender came out) I visited a small UK plastic moulding company who were busily engaged in producing parts for the new Defender, a job that you'd fully expect to be shipped overseas for cheapness. As someone else said, the supply chains are long and sprawling, as are the paths the money follows. Frankly the more stuff that gets done closer to home the better, and I suspect the pandemic and recent geopolitics have woken a lot of people up to the risks they're running - both in companies and in governments - and we're going to see some of those long chains get shorter and more capability get moved closer to home. The US are throwing huge amounts at bringing chip manufacturing back home, for example, and a lot of places seem determined to be making batteries at home.

1 hour ago, Lightning said:

Well, that was an accurate prediction. Basic 2-seater van version starts at £65,000 and the cheapest car version is £75,000

So I've been right at least once in the last 5 years on here