Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Snagger]

8 hours ago, L19MUD said:

Totally agree with this. I like the original concept, was put off by the non UK build and the further we get down the line I feel you would be better off getting some reputable to build a Defender to your spec than one of these.

 

Seems a better way to hold your money in the long term

I’d be more enthusiastic if it was UK built too.  As for values, it’s way too early to tell, but it’s easy for Defender rebuilders to assemble a vehicle with all the time-shown design flaws ironed out, while that is impossible in a new vehicle, regardless of how thoroughly they test them in development.  We know Defenders have always held value and that almost all other cars don’t, so the odds are against early Grenadiers avoiding significant depreciation.  Even if it pans out to be a great vehicle and early classic, it’ll be a while before early models command strong money used like preproduction Land Rovers (beyond the initial surge of demand outpacing delivery like with the Pretender).

[Bowie69]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

I don’t perceive that tone at all.  They just seem to be openly clarifying a reasonable policy of those who defer firm orders slipping back behind those who do order.  Seems fair to me, and clarifying it just heads off confusion or potential complaint later.

Tbh, I agree, this is pretty normal for newly released vehicles, especially highly anticipated ones.

[ThreePointFive]

I may have been exaggerating the strength of feeling for the sake of debate (or entertainment 😬) but ordering an unproven car from an unproven brand, without testing it first would be a leap of faith too far for me.

 

[Bowie69]

Yep, but the zealots will do it anyway, those and the ones looking to make a quick buck by selling immediately.

[Snagger]

5 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

I may have been exaggerating the strength of feeling for the sake of debate (or entertainment 😬) but ordering an unproven car from an unproven brand, without testing it first would be a leap of faith too far for me.

 

You’d be insane not to test drive before buying.

[Bowie69]

6 minutes ago, Snagger said:

You’d be insane not to test drive before buying.

Business users probably don't care assuming the buyer has actually tried one out.

[jeremy996]

I suspect I'll be classified as a zealot!

I did the 2B prototype tour and I've seen the dealer interior protoype at a potential local dealer and I'm happy to proceed. You cannot buy a basic new Defender as they will not take your order or quote 24 months for delivery, so at the moment it's blingy ones or nothing. Totally understandable commercial decision for the manufacturer to chase the margins, but no help to me. So I'm left with Grenadier or another 110 rebuild; I still have the mental scars from the last one.

I saw a new Suzuki Jimny Commercial at our local dealer today, (£21k OTR in silver metallic). The salesperson said they will get 4 a year and have no control on colour or specification. I'm not crazy about the colour and it is just too small and cannot tow enough to be a realistic alternative.

I'm taking a small risk buying a vehicle I have not fully test driven, but selling it on should be easy. Very few of the new cars I bought gave much of a test drive; from Vauxhall Nova 1.2 in 1984, Vectra in 1998 with a few inbetween, and none of the second hand vehicles test drives achieved much more than it works and I fit!

[Snagger]

16 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Business users probably don't care assuming the buyer has actually tried one out.

So, someone responsible has test driven it, then… QED!

perhaps I should have been more specific - the private user would be mad to buy without trying, but the commercial user or someone who uses a vehicle for working purposes, well, they buy on demonstrated capability, rather than whether they like the vehicle or not.

[Retroanaconda]

Not sure how many commercial buyers will bite at nearly twice the price of a normal pickup, but it depends more on the residual values and overall cost of ownership which won’t be apparent straight away.

I’m looking forward to trying one out though, if someone can come up with an aftermarket option for a less silly front bumper that would be good too!

[deep]

Somebody wanting a pick-up won't be looking at this.  Likewise, someone looking at a station wagon/van won't be looking at a pick-up. Either way, this isn't a general purpose fleet vehicle anyway, like a Series 3 might have been.  The design is far too intentional.  

I do wonder, assuming it reaches sufficient commercial success and given the manufacturing process is FAR more modern than the old Land Rovers, if the comparative price will work its way down over years, making it more accessible in time?  It has to be massively cheaper to build than the traditional Defender was, surely?

[Happyoldgit]

Who are the target markets?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Anyone know where / who will be doing warranty work if needed and servicing ?

 

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

Anyone know where / who will be doing warranty work if needed and servicing ?

 

I think they had a tie-in with one of the big tractor manufacturers.  Might sell well in Ukraine, then ! 😉. I would I agine they have a deal with BMW too.  Time will tell.

[Retroanaconda]

13 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Who are the target markets?

That’s a very good question.

I had originally thought it was commercial users, and Ineos are still promoting it as such, but I think in reality it’s likely to be more leisure use. It could sell very well in the USA’s very large recreational 4x4 market. 

[jeremy996]

Ineos have been appointing dealers around the UK, (and worldwide), including agricultural merchants and small dealer chains. My nearest is Chandlers in Belton, near Grantham, https://www.chandlers.co.uk/chandlers-news/new-ineos-grenadier-exclusive-lincolnshire-launch. Heritage, in the South West have also broken cover, https://www.heritageineosgrenadier.co.uk/

Service is a little more all-inclusive, with apparently the warranty being honoured if genuine parts are used, either self-maintained or by a local repairer. They will be supplying an open-source manual for access by almost anyone! It is not a modern Land Rover, but we will not necessarily believe this promised land until experienced.

[landroversforever]

31 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

That’s a very good question.

I had originally thought it was commercial users, and Ineos are still promoting it as such, but I think in reality it’s likely to be more leisure use. It could sell very well in the USA’s very large recreational 4x4 market. 

I can see the crew cab chassis versions selling for conversions.... but only if the residual prices stay up and or the service life is drastically better than the jap pickups bought by the utility companies now. The Station Wagon versions I agree, more likely to be leisure users now I reckon. 

[Happyoldgit]

Based on my experience with a new Puma Defender in 2007 if I'm still around I won't be laying cash down on an early production example, others can have that pleasure.

[deep]

If you go back to where the concept market came from, I'd say the target market is anybody who wants a vehicle of that type that nobody else produces (though, of course, there are G Wagens and Broncos etc. so that last bit is not strictly true - however, options aren't all that appealing).  That could mean someone like myself, who really wants a capable four wheel drive van that can get me to remote jobs, haul firewood from awkward places, access swimming holes up the river and double as a camper.  I guess some of that is leisure?  It could also include people like ecologists and surveyors who can appreciate a similar body style and capability, tourist operators and farmers with large families, just to give some examples.  It won't necessarily be large corporations who run a fleet of vehicles driven by random numpties who went through a safety training course and no longer feel the need to take responsibility, which, from experience, is what immediately comes to mind when I think of commercial operators!

[Snagger]

17 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Based on my experience with a new Puma Defender in 2007 if I'm still around I won't be laying cash down on an early production example, others can have that pleasure.

I think that goes for any new model from any manufacturer.  As many miles as they put on in testing, and as hard conditions as they subject the preproduction cars to, it’s not until a year or two into production that the weaknesses become apparent.  Remember the L322 front diffs and steering columns?  TD5 oil pumps?  300Tdi timing pulleys?  P38… well, just the P38! 😉

[jeremy996]

A new press release, containing some answers for @Hybrid_From_Hell

 

FIRST INEOS GRENADIER RETAILERS IN THE UK WILL OPEN IN JUNE 

· 34 locations in the UK are among over 160 INEOS Grenadier sales and service points confirmed around the world

· Global retail network includes established dealer groups, 4X4 specialists and agricultural equipment dealers 

· By the end of 2022 INEOS plans to have 200 sales and service outlets globally

London, 25 April 2022 – INEOS Automotive has nominated the partners that will operate the first 24 retail sites in the UK. These are among the first 160 locations to be confirmed in markets around the world.

By the end of 2022 INEOS plans to have a network of 200 sales and service sites for the Grenadier spanning over 50 countries, including established dealer groups, 4X4 specialists and agricultural equipment dealers.

The 24 retail locations confirmed so far in the UK are:

·       Bowker, Ribble Valley

·       Busseys, Attleborough

·       Cambria, Birmingham

·       Cambria, Edinburgh

·       Car Barn, Beamish

·       Chandlers, Belton

·       Chandlers, Horncastle

·       Compass, Bridgwater

·       Day's, Neath

·       Denton, Skipton

·       Endeavour, Gerrards Cross

·       Halliwell Jones, Chester

·       Harwoods, Portsmouth

·       Heritage, Dorchester

·       Heritage, Gloucester

·       Hollybrook, Belfast

·       Jardine, Colchester

·       Jardine, Sevenoaks

·       JT Hughes, Telford

·       Lloyd, Carlisle

·       Ocean, Plymouth

·       Sandicliffe, Nottingham

·       Northampton, retailer confirmed

·       West London, retailer confirmed

INEOS is working with these retailers to set up their outlets and be ready to welcome customers in the next few months. That process includes an intensive INEOS training programme for the sales agents and workshop technicians. The first of the newly nominated sites will open in June.

The aim is for the majority of customers in the UK to always be within 45 minutes of an official sales and service location. The retail partners will form the backbone of the service network in the country, with additional geographical coverage provided by ten selected partners and hand-picked INEOS-accredited Bosch Car Service outlets. All servicing centres in Scotland will eventually support sales and test drive activity, including sites confirmed for Stirling, Kilmarnock and Inverness. 

“We have worked tirelessly for over a year to find retail partners in the UK that share our enthusiasm and excitement for the Grenadier,” said Gary Pearson, Head of UK and MENA for INEOS Automotive. “They understand 4X4 users and their requirements, and have a proven track record for exceptional customer service. Together with these partners, we look forward to providing Grenadier customers with the advice, guidance and support they need.”

Prospective customers will be able to find their nearest Grenadier retailer via an interactive map at ineosgrenadier.com.

Technical specifications and pricing for the INEOS Grenadier in the UK will be confirmed by the end of April, with order books opening in May.

-Ends-

[deep]

I had the standard email today - orders open on the 18th of May and they are taking refundable $5,000 deposits.  I haven't chased all the links yet but will when I get the chance.  Such a shame that my financial situation deteriorated so badly while the Grenadier was being developed but I'm still pretty blessed, all things considered, so will happily watch developments at a slight (cheaper!) distance.

[Chicken Drumstick]

12 hours ago, deep said:

I had the standard email today - orders open on the 18th of May and they are taking refundable $5,000 deposits.  I haven't chased all the links yet but will when I get the chance.  Such a shame that my financial situation deteriorated so badly while the Grenadier was being developed but I'm still pretty blessed, all things considered, so will happily watch developments at a slight (cheaper!) distance.

I got the email too. Some prices and specs, but the build configurator looks like it will go live on the 18th May.

Prices are high, but probably not unexpected to be honest. Starting at £52k for the base model and then two other variants starting at £59k - which sadly puts them firmly beyond my reach!

Hoping used prices in 3 years time when the first batch of PCP's come to end will be nearer my budget.

[deep]

Actually, the quoted base price of $NZ95,000 is very competitive and less than I expected!  I'd consider adding a diff lock to that but probably not much else.

By comparison, the bare bones "110" Defender starts at $NZ113,000, around 20% more.  I would have thought the Grenadier was more expensive to build too!

Edited April 29, 2022 by deep
more info

[deep]

Chasing this a bit further: The two seater is only a thousand less than the five seater, surprisingly.  I could add the diff locks, BFG tyres and a nicer colour and still be under $NZ100,000.  I know it's still a lot of money but it seems a bargain for what it is.  They've done very well.

[Snagger]

I think we are all still used to Defender prices in the mid £20k range, but inflation has been high since then and modern car price inflation has been higher.  Add the  computer chip shortage and shipping problems, and that has boosted prices of cars, new and used, even higher over the past year or two.

As much as we might initially baulk at the list prices, I agree with the comments that they are actually quite competitive now when you consider the spec of the vehicle and the brands manufacturing the components and sub-assemblies.