Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[missingsid]

2 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Had a bit of a play with the Config system and came up with the appended, which is now my "saved" configuration.

Dark blue, white roof, commercial sides, standard seats, rubber floor, smaller wheels and BFGs, extra accessory wiring, no additional diff locks; pretty bare really. 

Still no sign of the tow gear, so that will need to be added later

The bottom line for a Defender 110 with tow pack in poverty white is £47,700 OTR, so the Grenadier will be more costly, guessing at £52k ish, as there is no official price guidance past a 2 str commercial Grenadier will be £40k +VAT, £48k.

So maybe not cheaper then.

[jeremy996]

1 hour ago, deep said:

I'm curious about your decision to remove the rear windows.  I've driven vehicles with those windows missing and they are deadly to reverse out of an angle park.

I like that colour choice!

I've driven a few commercial station wagons and had no issues with visibility, I've tended to treat them like vans anyway. Solid sides makes it a little more difficult for the light fingered to peep in. I'm hoping the Grenadier isn't too different from the 110 in that respect. Still, nothing is set in stone at this point!

My 110 is blue, The Grenadier colour looks good to me and the white roof makes it distinctive, (my colour vision is rubbish, red/green colour blind - all colours are approved in advance by my wife!)

8 minutes ago, missingsid said:

So maybe not cheaper then.

Nope - I'm guessing at the SW price at this stage. The LR configurator is a much more sophisticated beastie, so I have a cost for a white LR90 5 seater with air suspension, steel wheels and tow kit, £52,725, white LR110, 5 seats, steel springs and wheels with tow pack, £47,700 and a white 90 3 seater van, steel springs and wheels with tow pack at £47,251.

A white LR 110 hard top is £52,460, with the Grenadier 2 seat commercial at £48,000, so I think Ineos is being a little cute here. Whether Ineos could massage the price of a "basic" Grenadier SW to slightly less than the equivalent LR110 is probably more a matter of marketing than engineering!  (Pretty please!)

[missingsid]

8 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

I've driven a few commercial station wagons and had no issues with visibility, I've tended to treat them like vans anyway. Solid sides makes it a little more difficult for the light fingered to peep in. I'm hoping the Grenadier isn't too different from the 110 in that respect. Still, nothing is set in stone at this point!

My 110 is blue, The Grenadier colour looks good to me and the white roof makes it distinctive, (my colour vision is rubbish, red/green colour blind - all colours are approved in advance by my wife!)

Nope - I'm guessing at the SW price at this stage. The LR configurator is a much more sophisticated beastie, so I have a cost for a white LR90 5 seater with air suspension, steel wheels and tow kit, £52,725, white LR110, 5 seats, steel springs and wheels with tow pack, £47,700 and a white 90 3 seater van, steel springs and wheels with tow pack at £47,251.

A white LR 110 hard top is £52,460, with the Grenadier 2 seat commercial at £48,000, so I think Ineos is being a little cute here. Whether Ineos could massage the price of a "basic" Grenadier SW to slightly less than the equivalent LR110 is probably more a matter of marketing than engineering!  (Pretty please!)

I guess this true of every manufacturer, is the price based on cost plus margin or just what the market will pay?

IIRC RR were sold in the US at a Dollar per Pound so we paid far more because we would, even though LR had to ship them to the US.

[jeremy996]

1 hour ago, missingsid said:

I guess this true of every manufacturer, is the price based on cost plus margin or just what the market will pay?

Classical economics and capitalism assumes that businesses are rational and acquisitive. If you can cover the cost and a margin for overheads, the pricing decision is going to be based on what the market will stand, as that will maximise profits. 

Pricing decisions get much more interesting when margins are tight or there is minimal competition; do you go for volume and hope to reduce unit costs, (if margins are tight), conversely, if you have no current competition, do you keep margins small to discourage people from entering the market?

The expected sales statements in the presentation yesterday suggest they are not chasing volume, at least not in the UK, so I'm not convinced there'll be any bargains to be had.

[Snagger]

I saw Will@LRWorskshop has reserved one too - he has done a video on using the reservation and configuration software.

[Mo Murphy]

We'll have to pay for one ? That's a bit rum, I wanted a free one !

Dreams dashed again by this cruel world ☹

Mo

[crclifford]

I  had a play with the configuration tool, I quite liked the look of the green with black roof. But without the safari roofs, don’t see the need for those.

my only concern on the 5seater is the boot seems very shallow in the images on the tool, which maybe could be an issue fitting dog crates.

Edited October 1, 2021 by crclifford
Updated

[jeremy996]

1 hour ago, crclifford said:

my only concern on the 5seater is the boot seems very shallow in the images on the tool, which maybe could be an issue fitting dog crates.

You can get a full Euro pallet in the back, it needs that to be classified as Commercial in Europe

[hweebe]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:17 PM, missingsid said:

So a few hundred quid to reserve a manufacturing spot,  Ferrari and others do it. Can you sell the place later (for a large profit)?

In Australia it was $800 fully refundable with the T&Cs stating the spot is not transferrable....so no money to be made here.

[Jon Lewis]

Thought you might like to see underneath your £450 deposit.

[jeremy996]

15 minutes ago, Jon Lewis said:

Thought you might like to see underneath your £450 deposit.

The rather fancy looking Tremec transfer box. Ineos seem to be collecting a "Best of" OEM suppliers.

[FridgeFreezer]

Given some of the prices quoted in this thread I thought this was an interesting prospect for a basic no-nonsense truck;

https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-ford-maverick-is-an-honest-cheap-multitool-o-1847802688

Sub-$25k in the US sounds seriously cheap to me - and Ford parts bin.

[Jon Lewis]

2 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

The rather fancy looking Tremec transfer box. Ineos seem to be collecting a "Best of" OEM suppliers.

Yes here is the Carraro contribution

[deep]

41 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

The rather fancy looking Tremec transfer box. Ineos seem to be collecting a "Best of" OEM suppliers.

First thought looking underneath was "where's the chassis?!".  Second thought was that they really are putting together very good parts and it completely justifies the projected pricing.

[deep]

47 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Given some of the prices quoted in this thread I thought this was an interesting prospect for a basic no-nonsense truck;

https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-ford-maverick-is-an-honest-cheap-multitool-o-1847802688

Sub-$25k in the US sounds seriously cheap to me - and Ford parts bin.

If you want a relatively cheap pick-up truck with lots of seats, go for it.  Definitely more appealing than some other pickup trucks (depending on how awful those hybrid motors really are).  It hardly competes with a station wagon/van though!  You'd be nearer the mark with a Skoda Yeti...

Oh yes, it takes a massive stretch of the imagination to see an Escort grill in there!  What are they smoking?

[L19MUD]

11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Given some of the prices quoted in this thread I thought this was an interesting prospect for a basic no-nonsense truck;

https://jalopnik.com/the-2022-ford-maverick-is-an-honest-cheap-multitool-o-1847802688

Sub-$25k in the US sounds seriously cheap to me - and Ford parts bin.

So much thought has gone into that, I think it is great! Ford really seem to be on the ball at the moment and listening to what people want as opposed to just doing what they think people want. The Bronco is another great example and the latest F150 has a load of really cleverly thought out features too. Just a pity none of those cars will ever come here. 

 

Hopefully the new Ranger will pick up on some of those design points - the new one certainly looks like it will be interesting, especially if they let us have the 2.7 V6 Ecoboost petrol over here

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/2022-ford-ranger-what-we-know-so-far-about-the-new-toyota-hilux-rival-and-volkswagen-amarok

[reb78]

Agree with all of that^^^. I really wish Ford would supply these vehicles amd engines in the UK. 
 

Ineos is just disappointing me more. The price is creeping now too. Might as well just buy a new defender!

[ThreePointFive]

People should start looking at what the Ineos was meant to be at the outset and where it is now, with the number of broken promises and changes that absolutely would not be excused if they came from JLR.

[reb78]

25 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

People should start looking at what the Ineos was meant to be at the outset and where it is now, with the number of broken promises and changes that absolutely would not be excused if they came from JLR.

Agree completely. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

18 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

People should start looking at what the Ineos was meant to be at the outset and where it is now, with the number of broken promises and changes that absolutely would not be excused if they came from JLR.

Have they really broken promises? Surely they are still a company looking at being in 'business', which also involves the need to be profitable.

Prices might not be what we wanted, but as I've been saying all along, if you look at a well specced Ford Ranger or Toyota Hilux you are not so far away money wise. And arguably the Ineos looks to be better performing and higher spec than these offerings.

 

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

Agree with all of that^^^. I really wish Ford would supply these vehicles amd engines in the UK. 
 

Ineos is just disappointing me more. The price is creeping now too. Might as well just buy a new defender!

Everything is going up at the moment or at least gone up since prices were first mentioned. Look at the cost of steel and building materials at the moment. 

[reb78]

4 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Everything is going up at the moment or at least gone up since prices were first mentioned. Look at the cost of steel and building materials at the moment. 

I know, but I think they are just being opportunistic and seeing that the new defender is selling at its ridiculously high price point they are abandoning their original ethos of the affordable defender replacement. I guess I am old fashioned and the HP environment doesn't appeal to me but others don't feel that way and can afford the vehicle on that basis. I like to own my vehicles.

Abandoning the site in Wales was the biggest nail in the coffin for me. Its not British built (which was its original proclamation) and its not ending up at the cost level that they first indicated. Its also become more complicated than it originally claimed to be although I appreciate some of that is to comply with emissions regs etc.

The Fords aren't over complicated and are not over priced either (in their home markets - its import costs that will increase the cost on the road here) which is why they appeal more (even if they are really unavailable in the UK market). Personally I think they are also better looking vehicles. They also produce decent sized yet relatively economical petrol lumps which I think will become even more important in time as the anti diesel brigade get hold.

[landroversforever]

A huge part of the pricing is the numbers though. Look at the size of just the USA market for Ford. Quick google and an article from last year suggests they sell an average of 900K F150 pickups over the previous 3 years to that, compare that to the quoted 25k a year they've said for the Grenadier. Just over 10 days of F150 production is the number Ineos are planning to make in a whole year.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

I know, but I think they are just being opportunistic and seeing that the new defender is selling at its ridiculously high price point they are abandoning their original ethos of the affordable defender replacement. I guess I am old fashioned and the HP environment doesn't appeal to me but others don't feel that way and can afford the vehicle on that basis. I like to own my vehicles.

Abandoning the site in Wales was the biggest nail in the coffin for me. Its not British built (which was its original proclamation) and its not ending up at the cost level that they first indicated. Its also become more complicated than it originally claimed to be although I appreciate some of that is to comply with emissions regs etc.

The Fords aren't over complicated and are not over priced either (in their home markets - its import costs that will increase the cost on the road here) which is why they appeal more (even if they are really unavailable in the UK market). Personally I think they are also better looking vehicles. They also produce decent sized yet relatively economical petrol lumps which I think will become even more important in time as the anti diesel brigade get hold.

Expensive things seem to sell in the UK. Jeep almost doubled the price of a Wrangler and they sell way more now than ever over here and in the EU.

Ford also slapped a £10k markup on the Mustang (approx 33% price rise) and they are selling better than ever now.

 

Did they (Ineos) ever proclaim they wanted an affordable (I assume you are meaning cheap) Defender replacement? Or just a replacement with similar ethos and ability?

And I guess one could argue, if LR are selling lots of the new Defender. Then that price range must be "affordable" to the people wanting to buy.

As for complicated, I don't see how the Ford is less complicated? I suspect it is more so. But at the end of the day, this is true for All production cars in the Western World. Even kit cars.... So I think Ineos seem to have been pretty faithful for most aspects of this. It is as simple as it can be for a new build that is intending to be in production longer than a year or two. They are also offering a petrol engine.

[deep]

Well said.  The whole motivation behind the Grenadier project was always to build something along the lines of old-school Defenders but modernised in practical ways (space for the driver, sound proofing, reliability).  They have stuck true to that.  Well proven and high quality drivetrain components on a proper chassis with beam axles, a body designed to be practical in tough conditions rather than slick at racetrack speeds and a few clever design features of their own - it's all exactly what we expected and the price is exactly what anyone should have predicted.  I doubt it's any more complicated than the big pickup trucks or its more direct competition (which really includes G-Wagens as well as Broncos and Defenders).  I do wonder how it would compare to the Ford Everest though.  If I was shelling out today, I'd look hard at that option.