Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[ThreePointFive]

I'm not out to upset anyone or be inflammatory. I want to be clear that I like a lot about this car, I like what it represents. I'm just trying to work out if I like what it is turning out to be as much as what it should be.

For example, I am certain that the use of TFT screens in the Defender was commented as the worst betrayal of the original that LR could have perpetrated... yet the main vehicle gauges in the Ineos are presented in a TFT screen.

It has suspension parts that hang very low and look very vulnerable to damage/compromising off-road ability, it has a powerplant that is not DIY-friendly (though modern DIY engines are a thing of the past). It's an automatic. They don't want customers looking under the bonnet. They don't want customers taking the interior as finished. They don't want anyone taking photos of the underneath.

I understand they have nice components under there, but what if the reason they don't/didn't want photos was because they don't have agreements in place with those suppliers and they don't end up on the final product?

I know that details need to be ironed out, but to me there is more unknown than known at this point yet they are happy to take money - refundable or otherwise. I know each of my points can be picked out and debated but the result won't be any more certain.

Jeremy summed it up perfectly in the other thread, it's 'tease fatigue'. And only a mother could love that front end.

 

[Bowie69]

As foe the photos of underneath, I understand it was because the suspension was not finalised,  and they didn't want to mislead people.

 

As for keeping people in the dark........ I don't remember LR giving strings of videos and prototype driving days, did they?

[Chicken Drumstick]

42 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

I'm not out to upset anyone or be inflammatory. I want to be clear that I like a lot about this car, I like what it represents. I'm just trying to work out if I like what it is turning out to be as much as what it should be.

For example, I am certain that the use of TFT screens in the Defender was commented as the worst betrayal of the original that LR could have perpetrated... yet the main vehicle gauges in the Ineos are presented in a TFT screen.

It has suspension parts that hang very low and look very vulnerable to damage/compromising off-road ability, it has a powerplant that is not DIY-friendly (though modern DIY engines are a thing of the past). It's an automatic. They don't want customers looking under the bonnet. They don't want customers taking the interior as finished. They don't want anyone taking photos of the underneath.

I understand they have nice components under there, but what if the reason they don't/didn't want photos was because they don't have agreements in place with those suppliers and they don't end up on the final product?

I know that details need to be ironed out, but to me there is more unknown than known at this point yet they are happy to take money - refundable or otherwise. I know each of my points can be picked out and debated but the result won't be any more certain.

Jeremy summed it up perfectly in the other thread, it's 'tease fatigue'. And only a mother could love that front end.

 

Surely part of the success of a new marque is going to be interest in the model and sales? I can’t see how them keeping quiet for 2-3 years then trying to launch a finalised product nobody has seen or heard of before, would yield any sales success at all. 

They’d likely sell practically none. At least this way they are engaging and drumming up interest, which will lead to deposits and eventually sales.

Taking deposits is pretty sound, as it gives the organisation real figures to work with, based on interest in the model. It is also likely to be sound rational on a financial level to ensure backers and partners can see something is likely to come of the investments. 

This approach is also giving them feedback loops on what people are liking or not liking during the development phase. 
 

Persoanlly I think what they are doing is brilliant. And not so massively different to how Ford drummed up publicity over the past 12-18 months for the Bronco. I’d much rather them be actively engaged with the potential buying public and trying to offer what people want. The alternative of hiding away and keeping quiet for years with no publicity would just seem to be making things very difficult for yourself as a company.

[FridgeFreezer]

I agree with @ThreePointFive's point though - Ineos have been given a huge dollop of benefit of the doubt on this thread while JLR got absolutely roasted over every little detail over on the New Defender thread, perhaps because Ineos were telling people what they wanted to hear and then gradually drifting away while LR came out with an unpopular decision (break with tradition) despite having delivered what looks like a very capable and greatly improved vehicle.

I can't remember if I said it outright in the early days of this thread but it really does feel like the Grenadier is going to end up drifting up in price as the realities of low-volume production hit them, while the new Defender most likely has scope to drift downwards for base-model / commercial offerings as production ramps up and potentially end up squarely competing with the Grenadier but with far greater volume & a more established support network.

[jeremy996]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I can't remember if I said it outright in the early days of this thread but it really does feel like the Grenadier is going to end up drifting up in price as the realities of low-volume production hit them, while the new Defender most likely has scope to drift downwards for base-model / commercial offerings as production ramps up and potentially end up squarely competing with the Grenadier but with far greater volume & a more established support network.

I'd hope by now that Ineos have a firm handle on the initial build and production costs; I'm hoping that Ineos will match or beat the LR pricing for the basic 110 SW as they appear to have for the 110 commercial. LR and Ineos should both have opportunities for cost saving in production as part of the build learning curves - unless sales are poor, it is unlikely the buying public will benefit from them.

LR already have some really bling version of their vehicles available, (LR90X at £80k, sky's the limit for the V8!), I will be interested to see if Ineos offer some blinged up Grenadiers as the current configurator is a bit basic. Having said that, no options are priced yet; LR charge extra for every colour except poverty white, so my solid dark blue Grenadier option may yet be priced at a premium.

Remember when BL offered commercial vehicles in a number of solid colours: BT yellow, Navy blue, white, PO red etc. at a standard price?

[Snagger]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:01 AM, ThreePointFive said:

I'm not out to upset anyone or be inflammatory. I want to be clear that I like a lot about this car, I like what it represents. I'm just trying to work out if I like what it is turning out to be as much as what it should be.

For example, I am certain that the use of TFT screens in the Defender was commented as the worst betrayal of the original that LR could have perpetrated... yet the main vehicle gauges in the Ineos are presented in a TFT screen.

It has suspension parts that hang very low and look very vulnerable to damage/compromising off-road ability, it has a powerplant that is not DIY-friendly (though modern DIY engines are a thing of the past). It's an automatic. They don't want customers looking under the bonnet. They don't want customers taking the interior as finished. They don't want anyone taking photos of the underneath.

I understand they have nice components under there, but what if the reason they don't/didn't want photos was because they don't have agreements in place with those suppliers and they don't end up on the final product?

I know that details need to be ironed out, but to me there is more unknown than known at this point yet they are happy to take money - refundable or otherwise. I know each of my points can be picked out and debated but the result won't be any more certain.

Jeremy summed it up perfectly in the other thread, it's 'tease fatigue'. And only a mother could love that front end.

 

I both agree and disagree with points you have made.  I’m with you whole heartedly on the issue of electronics like the TFT screens.  But Ineos are at least using conventional, mechanical and switched controls, not touch screen (to my understanding) and are not fitting an array of unnecessary electronic systems.  As for automatic transmissions, yes, they are seen as more difficult to repair, but are they in reality, compared to modern manual transmissions?  They are certainly a lot more robust and less prone to wear, given their epicyclic gear sets, and so with appropriate servicing, should last longer than a manual and do away with the need of clutch servicing or replacement.  They should also help emissions, this probably being the primary driver in the decision to offer so many modern vehicles as automatic only, by having many gears with closer spacing to ensure the engine is in its peak RPM range for economy and emissions.  I’d rather have an indestructible transmission than a moderately easily reparable one.

I can see John’s point that there seems to be a double standard on the reception and reaction to this and the Defender, but I think that is a superficial view.  I think the bulk of us see the Defender as a style of substance vehicle, where as this is seen by most as a vehicle truer in ethos to the original LR, even though it is complicated by comparison to an 80s designed LR.  I see it as a more comfortable and higher quality vehicle with an ethos, not just aesthetic, of the original Defender, while the LR vehicle shares nothing more than a name.  I don’t think the double standard is real - I think most people are being quite fair in their posts.

[deep]

2 hours ago, Snagger said:

I can see John’s point that there seems to be a double standard on the reception and reaction to this and the Defender, but I think that is a superficial view.  I think the bulk of us see the Defender as a style of substance vehicle, where as this is seen by most as a vehicle truer in ethos to the original LR, even though it is complicated by comparison to an 80s designed LR.  I see it as a more comfortable and higher quality vehicle with an ethos, not just aesthetic, of the original Defender, while the LR vehicle shares nothing more than a name.  I don’t think the double standard is real - I think most people are being quite fair in their posts.

I couldn't agree more.  LR are in business which, sadly, becomes all about making money.  Their decision not to pursue the Land Rover tradition (which ended in 2016) is just fine for lots of people but inevitably led others to a feeling of betrayal, or just a loss of choice.  Good on Ineos for recognising that, though only time will tell if they go the whole hog, with flat deck and cab and chassis variants for example.  Anyway, if you understand who makes the comments and why, there are no double standards at all.  

As for using big screens - I hate them but understand they are cheap to produce and given designers lots of freedom.They're probably cheaper to replace than a mechanical speedo too!

I also hate my modern auto gearbox.  I save quite a bit of petrol using the one in my Freelander 2 manually but we are always arguing about who is in charge!  Frassing thing.  I was happier when I just drove a Series 3...

[jeremy996]

A newish YouTube video about the 2B Prototype experience: 

 

[Nonimouse]

On a more positive note. The winches and winch mounts will be made in Somerset. The latter being made very close to my house

[Snagger]

On 10/28/2021 at 2:17 PM, Nonimouse said:

On a more positive note. The winches and winch mounts will be made in Somerset. The latter being made very close to my house

Bowyer?  He’s down that way, isn’t he?

[Nonimouse]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

Bowyer?  He’s down that way, isn’t he?

He doesn't do winches anymore. So no

 

[landroversforever]

19 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

He doesn't do winches anymore. So no

 

Redwinch isn't it? They're based in Chard.

[jeremy996]

This YouTube video is supposed to give us a flavour of the parts and service manual. If so, it is going to be a bit of a game changer! 

Imagine having all the details you need to order parts in one place and fully up to date? Without looking up umpteen obsolete and super-ceeded parts? All of the service and mechanical details, all of the time. DIY or pass it to a trusted non-franchised independent, or even use the franchised dealer, knowing exactly what they need to do and what it should take in time and materials.

For the dealers, I can see it being a blessing and a curse! The good ones will be seen as good; the bad ones will have nowhere to hide and rapidly, no customers. For the small or specialised fleet, your fitters will have the same details the dealers normally have had, without you paying the dealer mark-ups and profit margin- bring work in-house or sub it out, depending on workload.

If the service bulletins are open-sourced as well, the vehicle will be debugged a bit like open-source software; common failures will be very public, but hopefully picked up early and fixed permanently.

Maybe, just maybe, the scary initial purchase price is the gateway to a much better ownership experience. We can hope.    

 

Sometime later: DAMN, looks like someone has had the video taken down. I've had a hunt around the Internet and cannot find the video or the supplier details. I found some stills though!

 

[simonr]

That does look bloody good!  I wonder (hope) if they will release 3D CAD models of the parts? 

Being able to accurately design add-on bits would be great.

Si

[jeremy996]

Ineos have sent out a "brochure" to people who have signed up and it is available in various places around the Internet, so I added it here.

Grenadier brochure.pdf

[deep]

That load-bearing roof with built-in tie downs is a stroke of genius!

[missingsid]

Knit picking, both exhaust pipes are guaranteed to be blocked with mud first time you reverse into a mud bank or flattened if you drop of a ledge.

But generally looks like they have given a lot of thought to it.

[Escape]

5 hours ago, deep said:

That load-bearing roof with built-in tie downs is a stroke of genius!

Yes it is! I don't like faffing about with roofracks or even roofbars, so have resorted to putting long stuff directly on the roof of my P38 on occasion. The big problem with that is there is nothing convenient to strap it down to, unless you put a strap through the doors...

The chassis reminds me of a P38, wider than a Defender and narrower at the front axle. The body does seem quite low, "258mm clearance to the vehicle body" seems to confirm that. Unless they mean the axles?

There's a lot to get excited about as well: rugged design, lockers, manual switches, impressive wading depth (so the doorseals will actually seal?), ...

Thanks for posting the brochure Jeremy!

[Tanuki]

Of relevance:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/11/05/sir-jim-ratcliffe-pumps-90m-grenadier-4x4/

"Chemicals billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s Grenadier 4x4, a “spiritual successor” to Jaguar Land Rover’s original Defender, cost his company another €106m (£90m) in development last year.

The company’s loss narrowed in 2020 from €137m in 2019 as research and development investment slowed.

Ineos Automotive Ltd, controlled by Sir Jim, has been set back by intellectual property disputes with JLR because of similarities between the Grenadier and the Defender.

There has been speculation that drawn-out litigation could set back the launch of the car, planned for summer 2022, although the company’s statement suggests next year is still the target for production.".

[missingsid]

2 hours ago, Tanuki said:

Of relevance:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/11/05/sir-jim-ratcliffe-pumps-90m-grenadier-4x4/

"Chemicals billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s Grenadier 4x4, a “spiritual successor” to Jaguar Land Rover’s original Defender, cost his company another €106m (£90m) in development last year.

The company’s loss narrowed in 2020 from €137m in 2019 as research and development investment slowed.

Ineos Automotive Ltd, controlled by Sir Jim, has been set back by intellectual property disputes with JLR because of similarities between the Grenadier and the Defender.

There has been speculation that drawn-out litigation could set back the launch of the car, planned for summer 2022, although the company’s statement suggests next year is still the target for production.".
 

So it's not over yet!

[steve b]

If JLR love the Ineos shape so much you'd have thought the new one would share some of the real Land Rover  look... 

All publicity is good publicity ? 

hohum

Steve

 

[Bowie69]

I suspect the reference to that is the original case, nothing new.

 

[jeremy996]

Yet another YouTube video, this one from Hungary, (turn on UK subtitles!), nothing very different but some more adventurous off-road shots and some of the underside. 

 

[jeremy996]

Looks like the interactive manual YouTube clip is back up again

 

[jeremy996]

Yet another press release from Ineos Grenadier - https://media.ineosgrenadier.com/ineos-grenadier-wins-best-design-and-innovation-trophy-at-the-2021-scottish-car-of-the-year-awards/?lang=en

"The INEOS Grenadier 4X4 has won the ‘Best Design and Innovation’ accolade at the Scottish Car of the Year (SCOTY) awards 2021. Judges praised the off-road vehicle’s utilitarian character, noting that it is perfectly suited for tackling Scotland’s toughest terrain.  

The annual awards, organised and judged by the Association of Scottish Motoring Writers (ASMW), recognise the best vehicles and automotive achievements of the year across more than 15 categories. Hosted at Edinburgh’s Dalmahoy Hotel and Country Club on 25 November, this year’s SCOTY awards celebrated 60 years of the ASMW. 

Jack McKeown, President of the ASMW, said: “Here in Scotland, we love a no-nonsense off-roader and that’s what INEOS has come up with in the Grenadier. It is inspired by legendary working 4X4s but created with its own distinctive personality. It’s unashamedly made with just one purpose in mind – to get further around a wild loch or up a Munro than anything else. That it fulfils its brief so beautifully is the reason the INEOS Grenadier is the deserved winner of our Best Design and Innovation Award.”