Smoother running Tdi engine

[Chicken Drumstick]

Thought I'd share my experience with my 200Tdi engine.

I've recently fitted a new mod, a twin inlet intake manifold.

https://fourby.co.uk/epages/950004277.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950004277/Products/Manifold

(image from website, not my install)

 

I kind of bought it on a whim by submitting interest for it a while back. I was then contacted the other week asking if I was still interested. For the money, it seemed like it was worth it, as with the exchange price it works out pretty cheap overall.

The manifold was an easy fit, although the Y piece piping I found very tight and awkward to install. Although in fairness I was fitting to a Series III engine bay (different inner wing) and my FMIC does not have the outlet pipe in exactly the same location as a standard IC.

What I can say is, it has transformed the smoothness of the engine. In a rather radical way. The Tdi's have always been a bit gruff, but with this manifold it is so much smoother, to the point you might not even recognise it as a Tdi engine. The smoothness extends from tickover, but is most noticeable across the rev range.

I'm sure power and torque are up too, at least according to the SOTP dyno. Hoping to get it on a rolling road in the new year most likely. I have a dyno run from last year that'll be able to compare too. I've driven and experienced many "tuned" Tdi's over the years. But I have to say, my current setup is by far the most potent, despite running tall gearing thanks to the 1.2:1 transfer box and 33" tyres.

[elbekko]

I really wonder what it has done to low-down torque. As far as I understand it, short intake runners (which you've effectively created here) are better for top-end power, but at the cost of low-down torque (hence the bunch-of-bananas V8 Thor manifold).

Interesting mod nonetheless.

[Chicken Drumstick]

I won't know until I get it on the dyno. But low end torque seems better than ever too, even off boost (although it does smoke a bit off boost, but always has).

Due to being smoother, it seems happier at lower rpm in gear than it ever has done.

[elbekko]

Could be that only applies to NA engines, in which case, I'm surprised nobody has done this before!

[Nonimouse]

Did you increase the intake diameter and flow of the intercooler as well?

[Chicken Drumstick]

14 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Did you increase the intake diameter and flow of the intercooler as well?

Engine is a 200Tdi and was originally tuned by Allisport when they fitted a large front mount intercooler. All the dials/screws on the pump have been played with and the boost pin rotated. Think the turbo boost slightly fiddled, but not far from stock. It's running a large cone air filter and custom ducting from turbo to IC. And silicon hoses in many places. Exhaust is straight through. And it has a boost ring fitted to the injector pump. Stock turbo, head & cam.

[Retroanaconda]

Interesting, will be good to see what the figures are like.

£250 is a fair wedge and I’m not sure if the benefits would perhaps be as acute on a big standard engine?

[Nonimouse]

25 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Engine is a 200Tdi and was originally tuned by Allisport when they fitted a large front mount intercooler. All the dials/screws on the pump have been played with and the boost pin rotated. Think the turbo boost slightly fiddled, but not far from stock. It's running a large cone air filter and custom ducting from turbo to IC. And silicon hoses in many places. Exhaust is straight through. And it has a boost ring fitted to the injector pump. Stock turbo, head & cam.

So the same ID pipe for inlet and outlet on the 'cooler?

[Chicken Drumstick]

 

2 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

So the same ID pipe for inlet and outlet on the 'cooler?

Yep

[Nonimouse]

17 minutes ago, Retroanaconda said:

Interesting, will be good to see what the figures are like.

£250 is a fair wedge and I’m not sure if the benefits would perhaps be as acute on a big standard engine?

I'm also intrigued. I asked the manufacturer about flow increases, but he got quite shirty.  That's the chap that makes them, not the retailer (Fourby). I once calculated how much air a 200tdi would flow (think it was about 15cm/m). so I wanted to know what the flow capability of the double pipe was...

[Ex Member]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm also intrigued. I asked the manufacturer about flow increases, but he got quite shirty.  That's the chap that makes them, not the retailer (Fourby). I once calculated how much air a 200tdi would flow (think it was about 15cm/m). so I wanted to know what the flow capability of the double pipe was...

Bwahahahaha!!!!  None of these guys do any testing.  They just make parts and decide they are helpful based on the seat of the pants feel.  Land Rover parts developers in general do not know what the word science means.

[FridgeFreezer]

£250???

Guess I need to find some old TDi inlet manifolds kicking around and get the TIG out

[western]

Only works on the Tdi engines with the low mounted turbo, that wouldn't be any use on the Defender spec 200tdi with the high mount turbo.

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, Red90 said:

Bwahahahaha!!!!  None of these guys do any testing.  They just make parts and decide they are helpful based on the seat of the pants feel.  Land Rover parts developers in general do not know what the word science means.

Nailed it. 

These manifolds are a complete and utter waste of time. The only info they ever say is that 'each port gets equal flow', totally forgetting that each cylinder takes air at a different point. All these do is add volume to the intake and a sharp 90 for the air to travel round. Horrible bits of kit I'm afraid.

[landroversforever]

2 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm also intrigued. I asked the manufacturer about flow increases, but he got quite shirty.  That's the chap that makes them, not the retailer (Fourby). I once calculated how much air a 200tdi would flow (think it was about 15cm/m). so I wanted to know what the flow capability of the double pipe was...

Any supposed extra flow of the double pipe would be negated by the fact the its still being fed by the same amount of air as before.

[Nonimouse]

23 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Any supposed extra flow of the double pipe would be negated by the fact the its still being fed by the same amount of air as before.

This is the simple science that keeps nudging me and saying "but surely all these young, intelligent chaps that are buying the product known that and surely no-one would sell a product that was so obviously a scam"

Hence why I asked the manufacturer what the flow potential differences were

200 and 300 engines are generally quite old and abused and as such respond well to TLC and minor tweeks.... as such  I have no doubt there is an improvement, even if it is just a little bit more cool air. Like the improvement a decent snorkel makes on fitting

[landroversforever]

41 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

This is the simple science that keeps nudging me and saying "but surely all these young, intelligent chaps that are buying the product known that and surely no-one would sell a product that was so obviously a scam"

Hence why I asked the manufacturer what the flow potential differences were

200 and 300 engines are generally quite old and abused and as such respond well to TLC and minor tweeks.... as such  I have no doubt there is an improvement, even if it is just a little bit more cool air. Like the improvement a decent snorkel makes on fitting

It’s not getting any more air though. It’s still being fed the same amount. A snorkel makes a difference because any improvements to that are lowering the pressure drop over that length. 

[oneandtwo]

3 hours ago, Red90 said:

Bwahahahaha!!!!  None of these guys do any testing.  They just make parts and decide they are helpful based on the seat of the pants feel.  Land Rover parts developers in general do not know what the word science means.

They probably are tested.. on a clapped out discovery with lift kit, remould mud tyres, whip aerials, “one life live it” stickers and a chevron wheel cover.

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

Nailed it. 

These manifolds are a complete and utter waste of time. The only info they ever say is that 'each port gets equal flow', totally forgetting that each cylinder takes air at a different point. All these do is add volume to the intake and a sharp 90 for the air to travel round. Horrible bits of kit I'm afraid.

Well I beg to differ. I don’t think it has added loads of power. But the change in character is night and day. And not something that would show up on a dyno anyway. But I can attest it is running a lot better too. And will in time get a dyno and some performance figures. 
 

But to highlight the biggest change is how much smoother it runs. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

This is the simple science that keeps nudging me and saying "but surely all these young, intelligent chaps that are buying the product known that and surely no-one would sell a product that was so obviously a scam"

Hence why I asked the manufacturer what the flow potential differences were

200 and 300 engines are generally quite old and abused and as such respond well to TLC and minor tweeks.... as such  I have no doubt there is an improvement, even if it is just a little bit more cool air. Like the improvement a decent snorkel makes on fitting

Lol. Could you be any more Victor Meldrew about this? 
 

It’s always the same in the U.K. with performance mods. Complete denial by some that they don’t work. And still wouldn’t believe it, even if presented with infallible proof. 
 

I’ve got nothing to gain if people do or don’t believe. I’m just passing on my findings as a punter who has bought one and fitted. If it didn’t feel like it made any improvement. I’d have either reported that or kept stum about it. I certainly wouldn’t have wasted time posting up lies. 

[reb78]

I'm interested in the dyno results when you get them. Crikey, even if it made the old thing run quieter with no power gains it would be a plus!

[Ed Poore]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

£250???

Guess I need to find some old TDi inlet manifolds kicking around and get the TIG out

I was just thinking the same thing, I've got at least one spare 300Tdi manifold sat on the floor. Although the 300 does take the air in at the front.

If the engine has been tuned up a bit then I can see pulling more air in is beneficial but as Ross says it's still being fed by the same inlet.

@landroversforever I just had a thought and wonder if perhaps it's reduced the "backpressure" on the turbo a bit which allows it to achieve a higher flow rate, although there is the intercooler in the way.

I remember reading recently an article by one of Garret's turbo engineers about exhaust design on engines, both NA and supercharged (i.e. turbo charged as well). The simple conclusion was on a turbo vehicle the bigger the exhaust the better* as it allows the turbo to spin up more freely and thus produce boost sooner so you see the biggest benefits that way. On NA engines it's a bit more specific because you can gain some power through scavenging which requires careful design of the exhaust system.

Why do I mention this - well he was talking about the exhaust side of things but it stands to reason if the output from the turbo to the engine has some restriction in it then alleviating that will benefit the engine's overall performance. Perhaps what @Chicken Drumstick has seen is something relating to this effect. The header design (assume the rear most is the normal one) looks particularly poor as Jon says with those 90 bends. At least the 300 is more or less a straight run from the top of the intercooler into the intake manifold. Although I guess it then has to make a 90 into the head.

* - there is a point of diminishing returns on size and therefore material cost vs. the gains you can make.

[cackshifter]

I can't see the power altering much unless you retune the fuel pump, as with excess air, it is normally dependent on how much fuel is injected, and that isn't changing. In fact if it improves the volumetric efficiency it would tend to reduce the boost pressure, so it may even reduce the fuelling. Do you know if it has been divided internally or is it still one large chamber inside?

[landroversforever]

6 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

 The header design (assume the rear most is the normal one) looks particularly poor as Jon says with those 90 bends. At least the 300 is more or less a straight run from the top of the intercooler into the intake manifold. Although I guess it then has to make a 90 into the head.

Neither are the standard entry. They chop that off the front and add those two.

As for the air turning into the engine anyway... it’s in a plenum at that point. So the air just goes to whoever the pressure is lower IE a port opens. 

[RedLineMike]

48 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Neither are the standard entry. They chop that off the front and add those two.

As for the air turning into the engine anyway... it’s in a plenum at that point. So the air just goes to whoever the pressure is lower IE a port opens. 

lets not allow engineering principles get in the way of shiny ****,

 

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