110 300TDi drivetrain improvements - recommendations please!

[Snagger]

Whether to change all the diffs to ATBs depends as much on budget as use.  Do I need them for my RRC?  No, but I have had times on UK roads in the snow and ice that they would have helped enormously and they aren’t terribly expensive compared to being stuck in the middle of nowhere.  You don’t need more justification than simply being able to afford them and seeing an occasional need for extra grip.

The centre ATB may be less useful than the axle units, but it could prevent the repaired LT230 diff exploding - the standard units don’t react well to a single wheel spinning up.  Since you’re already going to be rebuilding the LT230, the upgrade may make sense.

The guys are right that the Camel Trophy was done on standard transmissions, but that was with the centre diff locked at all times, which is not advisable on road, even in winter, and more crucially, done not only with convoys of vehicles with a great deal of support equipment but also a lot of young, fit and trained men.  You don’t have those benefits on your tours, and even if you did, relying frequently on others in a group for recovery is going to wear thin very fast.

At the end of the day, you seem to want them and the peace of mind they bring, so if you can afford them without sacrificing other important things, then they are worthwhile.  This is a hobby, and just personalising and upgrading your vehicle brings satisfaction.  You don’t need to be a competitive driver in routinely arduous conditions to justify such mods.

As for the LT230 ratios, an overdrive is far more useful than changing the fixed ratios.  As you said, fixed high ratios are bad in hilly areas or if you tow, but overdrives are selectable and flexible, so you have made the right choice there.  I’m pretty sure the final ratio with an overdrive engaged is also taller than almost all the high ratios available, certainly taller than the 1.22 and without the negatives, and a 1.1 would be undriveable behind a Tdi and poor behind TD5s and TDCIs.

A few people in the LR group here in Dubai have installed three ATBsin their 110s and find them superb in the desert.  Lockers might be better still, but are costlier, more effort to fit and maintain, and need dash controls.  They are also less benefit on winter roads, forcing skids when locked.  ATBs are a very good option for the moderate off reader and overlander.

[miketomcat]

I did Ladoga with stock front axle and transfer box, the rear axle had a borrowed locker and HD shafts. On 33" tyres. My ibex and 110 are both on stock drive train (the ibex had HD drive flanges solely to stop the leak) both get off roaded the ibex is used for marshaling our local site days. Both are on 33" tyres.  I run 1.4 transfer boxes, over drive would be nice but I don't feel I need one. If on stock tyres I would go to a 1.2.

As for yours assuming the rear axle is a Salisbury service all, recon the transfer box and throw a hi lift and some spares in the back (a winch or turfor is nice). Job done easy to fix unlikely to break given your use and spend the money on the trip.

Mike

 

[Sigi_H]

13 hours ago, Tobias said:

I'v run Truetracs and Ashcroft LTBs on all my Land Rovers since about 2005 (I think six of them...)

How did you destroy the five first ones? 😁

Of course stock is good enough. But we do, what we love and what we can afford. Are MT's necessary? Better to travel badly equipped, but travel.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Sigi_H

[Nonimouse]

9 hours ago, Peaklander said:

I don't know where to start with the thanks. Maybe I should cllck a load of 'likes' but it would be on every post 😀 The leave it alone feedback is just as good as go ahead and do the lot!

One thing is, it could clearly get expensive, quickly and yes I understand that lockers and ATBs can move the torque across to one side, so placing demands on the half shafts which adds to the cost.

The LT230 needs to come out and be checked over. I will do that. It will be new ground but I did rebuild the gearbox on my 88" and the internet was smaller then. I will get started with that in the next few days. Will I fit the centre ATB? The text on the Ashcroft website is very appealing. BTW @Snagger it does lock too. It is £345+VAT and that is after the overhaul parts cost. @Sigi_H honestly I can't see an advantage of the 1.1 ratio. I can't drive around here with my OD always selected, it's too high. I need to drive up the Winnats Pass in the morning and always drop into 2nd. I don't think OD+2nd will work but maybe I will try but straining in a high gear isn't good for the transmission anyway.

I really get the advice about don't get stuck, spend the money elsewhere @western, @reb78, @Nonimouse, @Arjan, @Bowie69, @rusty_wingnut and others but I might get stuck and we don't travel with anyone else. There's no-one as backup. In Albania it felt very lonely driving over into the back country. @Mo Murphy got admonished by the police for a wild-camp fry-up involving five vehicles. We don't do the convoy trips. @Stellaghost I don't want to rely on a winch - if I am going to spend anything, I would rather it helps with traction rather than sorting me out when I don't have any.

I drove all over the place in the snowy winters of 78/79, 81/82, 87, 09/10, 10/11 but this was in cars with narrow tyres and later with winter tyres (all my family have winter rims and tyres). I have done fewer snowy miles in my 110 than in any car.

I guess I will sleep on it, start the LT230, place an order with Ashcrofts and then pull the Rover from the front axle and see what I think. If that needs any work then I will spend money on a four pin open diff, at least...

Phew I hope that covers off all the comments. It probably doesn't so apologies if I read something else and comment later.

 

I think you are worrying too much about getting stuck. I built a 110 up for a friend, who then proceeded to do over 40k around Europe, Russia, the former USSR, Turkey and Scandinavia. he got stuck once. Ten minutes walk from a village.

When I did his training, he was adamant he wanted to take a Come Along winch for recovery. We got the vehicle deliberately stuck and I let him have a go with the come along. The lesson he learnt is don't push the vehicle too far. One stuck in 40k, including over 30k on poor and unsurfaced roads.

 

[smallfry]

I think your main problem is that you now have it in your head that you "need" to spend some money and do something. Now that you have that itch, you will be absolutely NOT satisfied until you have ! You are trying to justify it to yourself by asking the question.

Whether you NEED these things is debateable, but as Snagger has said, its just a hobby, and the standard vehicle will get you where you want to go (within reason) But I suppose it it nice to have a bit more peace of mind.

I won't go into the obvious about avoiding trouble where possible when travelling, as you obviously know this. If you need bragging rights, you can make it up !

If you can afford these things then go for it, as long as nothing else is suffering financially. For me, I would rather spend money on something shiny (or grubby) and still have something to show for it months later, which you do NOT get with beach holidays, nights at the pub, meals out etc etc.

You have already proved that the standard vehicle is fine, but if I were you, I would rebuild and service what you have, and install a four pin front diff centre.

[Snagger]

I agree with all that has been said, including those who said an upgrade to the centre diff with heavy duty parts is a minimum spec if you are already opening it up.  I also agree that for the vast majority, the standard spec axles are adequate.  Good tyres with standards diffs will give better results than super-duper diffs and TC with poor tyres.  But we know Rover long nose diffs are poor.  They handle a 2.25 well enough, but the Tdis and especially the TD5 and TDCI chew them up (my wife’s 2009 90 had persistent rear diff cross pin dislocations, and in hindsight I think it was because of slight ovalisation of its holes or distortion of the carrier).

As unusual as it is to have a standard open rear diff and a locking or LSD front diff, Sigi does have a point in his view that replacing the two-pin front diff with something tougher is prudent and that if you are upgrading, the similar costs of fitting an ATB to a four-pin diff make it an obvious choice, while leaving the strong rear diff as is if budget limited.  Unusual doesn’t mean illogical.

Smallfry is on the same wavelength as me.  He can see that you really want these toys and that you are trying to justify it.  I’m just saying that really wanting them is all the justification you need.  There are better things to spend the money on if budget is limited, but if you have the means, dive in and have fun.

[SteveG]

12 hours ago, Peaklander said:

 @Stellaghost I don't want to rely on a winch - if I am going to spend anything, I would rather it helps with traction rather than sorting me out when I don't have any.

Sorry to say this, but your view on a winch is completely flawed. In my TD5 90 I left the transmission as completely stock, open diffs, centre diff lock. I did however invest in the suspension and tyres to give me maximum traction as possible, fitted a winch and carried two waffle boards (You’d carry maxtrax now).

A winch doesn’t have to be used just for when you get stuck, you can also use it when you know your going to have difficulty. To get through a difficult section you can opt for the winch first, using a winch and available traction means you can get over some very difficult terrain with good mechanical sympathy too. Add in a set of boards or maxtrax and again these are a real aid, either on their own or in conjunction with the winch.

In order of priority this is what I’d personally invest in…

Good set of mud terrain tyres

Compressor - so I can air down tyres when necessary to get the max out of them

Suspension - to maximize traction off road (obviously you need to also meet your needs for on road too/load carrying)

Traction boards/maxtrax

Winch and good selection of extension lines/strops/shackles etc.

That would be my minimum setup for solo off roading. 
 

Then if funds allowed…

Rear ATB/Locker plus HD halfshafts 

then Front ATB

If budget was no issue

Centre ATB

Front HD shafts and CV’s

[Peaklander]

Priceless advice and experience. Thanks again. I will reply but don’t have enough typing time atm. 

[Sigi_H]

1 hour ago, SteveG said:

Good set of mud terrain tyres

Another experience:

I used BFG MT tyres now for about 6 or 7 years. Since I am a traveler (avoiding really bad situations) I needed them in all these years for 2 times. But the entire time I traveled with loud tyres. In the situations I needed them, the winch also would have helped me. After the winter I will change to more silent AT tyres.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Sigi_H

[smallfry]

I agree that a winch is a handy thing to have, but my only objection to them is that one has to get out of the vehicle, probably end up a bit sweaty and dirty, then have to get back in and get mud all over the Axminster ! So tedious, dont you think ?

Now if one had a man in a following vehicle to get out and do it for me, it would be fine, what what ?

[SteveG]

6 minutes ago, Sigi_H said:

Another experience:

I used BFG MT tyres now for about 6 or 7 years. Since I am a traveler (avoiding really bad situations) I needed them in all these years for 2 times. But the entire time I traveled with loud tyres. In the situations I needed them, the winch also would have helped me. After the winter I will change to more silent AT tyres.

If the goal is to maximize traction off road, you go for MT’s. If you’re going to compromise for on road efficiency/comfort then don’t 😊

[Sigi_H]

Don't forget: Everything you make stronger transfers the weakest point to another place. If you use HD half shafts and HD drive members, what will go to break instead? I made the same mistake, when I built my front axle. Everything is HD.

My idea is to use weak drive members to have an easy serviceable break point.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Sigi_H

[Tobias]

6 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

How did you destroy the five first ones? 😁

Of course stock is good enough. But we do, what we love and what we can afford. Are MT's necessary? Better to travel badly equipped, but travel.

Sadly, none of those have been used and abused to destruction, but sold... I am not counting the one's that were not for serious use, some of which have been scrapped to donate parts.

[Nonimouse]

2 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

Another experience:

I used BFG MT tyres now for about 6 or 7 years. Since I am a traveler (avoiding really bad situations) I needed them in all these years for 2 times. But the entire time I traveled with loud tyres. In the situations I needed them, the winch also would have helped me. After the winter I will change to more silent AT tyres.

 

I have stuck with MT's for years - to match the requirements of the vehicle. In the last three years I have also been using the vehicle as my DD, so road miles have gone up by 20k a year. My last set of Hankook RT03's wore rally quickly, so I was going to swap to AT's. Then I discovered Falken Wildpeake MT01's. Pretty much unstoppable off tarmac, unless you are buried. Excellent on tarmac - quiter, handle far better (and RT)3's are pretty good), better fuel economy. Price is good as well

[Peaklander]

Yet again there's so much to respond to. Thanks for making this an informative thread for me. I should state that I definitely have not decided that I want lockers and/or ATBs all round but I am trying to decide if they would be suitable for now and trips in the coming years. I think that I am here and apologies for repeating what I have probably said further up the thread...

There are pre-trip services that I will do and always have but I need to check through my swivels and all my brakes. These were all replaced seven years ago before the first trip (to the south of Greece) and have had the usual planned maintenance but I intend to check a little deeper.

I've been advised that I should look at the LT230 with a view to overhauling it, as it is at 170K miles. I am prepared to have a go at this first, soon, starting in the next few days. It would seem that sleeving is a good idea but I can decide when I see the Intermediate shaft and its hole in the case. I can examine the diff but whilst I am there I could buy and fit the ATB. The advantage of this is that on the slippery surfaces that I might encounter, in the UK winters and on trips, I can drive without needing to flick in and out of diff lock and no worries about spinning the internals and causing damage before I do lock it. There's a guy on YT (defender90 keswick) who shows the overhaul and fits the centre ATB and it appears to be a nice video series to follow (link). I'm not sure whether fitting this actually makes the overhaul simpler, I guess it must do but there is an appreciable cost difference.

I am going to try to listen more closely to the Roamerdrive and research overhauling that too. I know that @Snagger has done so and the unit has to come off the Transfer box anyway but I will leave that till last and see where I am with the other jobs. 

I am leaving my Salisbury rear axle alone.

I will pull the Rover final drive from the front and do some checks and inspection to see how it is BUT it is the acknowledged weakness in the whole drivetrain and so I will replace the diff with something, yet to be decided. It will be a 4 pin open diff or an ATB or an air locker. The air locker would require that I install some sort of compressor and this would give me tyre pressure opportunities, so as to help in some situations. It's a bit like the LT230 ATB, if I am overhauling then why wouldn't I? Apart from the cost of course.

I have been on BFG ATs since 2015 and I think they have half the tread left after 35K miles. At what point do I say that there isn't enough tread for soft conditions?

I do have a question about suspension as several posts have pointed out that this will affect things. Mine is standard in that I have a new chassis (2018) with standard front springs and genuine 'stock' progressive ones at the back, having removed my Boge self-leveller. All my bushes are SuperPro and dampers are Monroe. I have Gwyn Lewis Sumo Bar steering rods. That's OK isn't it? Are the suspension comments inferring that there's something else to consider or are they implying that other choices affect traction?

I'm still digesting the advice on winches.

Thanks, I hope I've covered-off the feedback again. 😀

 

 

[Bowie69]

Re:tyres, age is a factor as I'm sure you know, I'm not certain I'd go on long trips with 7 year old tyres on board.

[miketomcat]

The advice I've been given in the past is if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first. If you want a front locker the rear must already be done. On the basis I don't have any I don't have experience but I believe a locked front axle with an open rear is dangerous to drive. I don't know why and am happy to be proved wrong but this is what I was told years ago.

Mike

[Peaklander]

5 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

...if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first

Well that is something that I must investigate - thanks @miketomcat

[Stellaghost]

13 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

The advice I've been given in the past is if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first. If you want a front locker the rear must already be done. On the basis I don't have any I don't have experience but I believe a locked front axle with an open rear is dangerous to drive. I don't know why and am happy to be proved wrong but this is what I was told years ago.

Mike

It can effect your steering  and therefore a danger if engaged in the wrong environment, think urban, for pure  off road use I don't think it would matter too much as I've said previously I ran my lightweight with welded front and open rear with fiddles, great off tarmac but on tarmac front drive cannot allow for speed differences between wheels when turning, also think damage.

When I bought my ARB lockers the instructions specifically state that the front cannot be engaged without the rear first and this is backed up with how they are wired up ( it can be circumvented it needed, I did but only to run front locker for modified trials ) regards Stephen

Edited January 12, 2022 by Stellaghost

[Sigi_H]

11 hours ago, miketomcat said:

The advice I've been given in the past is if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first. If you want a front locker the rear must already be done. On the basis I don't have any I don't have experience but I believe a locked front axle with an open rear is dangerous to drive. I don't know why and am happy to be proved wrong but this is what I was told years ago.

Mike

I have experience since many years. In my eyes ... no. Why?

The front locker affects steering as well, but it is engaged only on slippery ground, so the vehicle keeps steerable. Doing hardcore offroad I'd recommend the locker in the rear (best is in front and rear). But for traveling the locker in the front improves the entire axle and provides a lot of savety anyway.

[SteveG]

The reason I mentioned suspension is that it has a big part to play in maintaining traction, maximizing upward and downward travel from your existing spring setup will give you a lot more traction off road especially in dry, loose and uneven ground situations. For example if you fitted a kit like Gwyn Lewis’s long travel suspension, it would allow your springs to dislocate, the adjusted shock mounts and longer travel shocks would allow greater upward and downward movement. The benefits of this in off road traction can be significant.

Apart from the damping change of the shocks compared to your existing shocks, none of this affects the on road handling of your Defender. Choose well, like the Old Man Emu long travel shocks and typically I’ve found they perform much better on road than LR or Monroe shocks. 

You didn’t mention having anti roll bars front or rear, but if you do and want to keep them, then ignore the above advice. 😉 Then your best option for better traction would be to fit ATB’s/Lockers.

For your centre ATB, it’s likely that there hasn’t been much support because most of the people here responding are used to using a centre diff lock, don’t find it an issue selecting it when necessary and the centre diffs are fairly reliable. So for most folks responding it’s low value, however, really it’s down to personal choice, if you want to fit one for the extra flexibility, greater reliability and removing some of the driveline shunt and feel that the invest is worthwhile, then go ahead 👍

For the front diff, you mention that this is the weakest link. 2 pin diffs are weaker than 4 pin, which in turn are weaker than one with an ATB or Diff Locker centre, but this doesn’t mean they’re fragile. The standard open diffs can take a fair amount of abuse, and so far I assume it’s been reliable enough for you. If when you pull it, everything is ok, I’d leave it as is, and just go for a rear ATB/Locker only if you do want to go down this route after fitting your centre ATB.

cheers 

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, SteveG said:

 

For the front diff, you mention that this is the weakest link. 2 pin diffs are weaker than 4 pin, which in turn are weaker than one with an ATB or Diff Locker centre, but this doesn’t mean they’re fragile. The standard open diffs can take a fair amount of abuse, and so far I assume it’s been reliable enough for you. If when you pull it, everything is ok, I’d leave it as is, and just go for a rear ATB/Locker only if you do want to go down this route after fitting your centre ATB.

cheers 

I take issue with this. The 2 pin diff in my 100" only lasted 230k of hard sustained abuse. I was furious when it failed (I was left foot braking in a gravel river-bed, whilst trying to winch BBC out, after his V8 ingested mud and died). Poor workmanship!  I wrote to Land Rover requesting a replacment  (and a replacment halfshaft) and they didn't bother to respond. Typical.

[Nonimouse]

17 hours ago, miketomcat said:

The advice I've been given in the past is if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first. If you want a front locker the rear must already be done. On the basis I don't have any I don't have experience but I believe a locked front axle with an open rear is dangerous to drive. I don't know why and am happy to be proved wrong but this is what I was told years ago.

Mike

Not 'Dangerous', no. Entertaining at times. Lack of driving experience could make it dangerous, but that is the same as fitting an LSD in the rear only. Front LSD's are biased to steering anyway.  I often wonder where all this 'difficult to steer' stuff comes from. I regulaly drive a 240bhp SWB G Wagen off road. It's been modified so that the front locker can be used without the rear locker being on (helps with sharp turns) and there are no issues with steering. I tend to think issues with steering come form not knowing when to apply the power (Galoshes, coat and....gone)

[Snagger]

18 hours ago, miketomcat said:

The advice I've been given in the past is if you want to fit a locker you must do the rear first. If you want a front locker the rear must already be done. On the basis I don't have any I don't have experience but I believe a locked front axle with an open rear is dangerous to drive. I don't know why and am happy to be proved wrong but this is what I was told years ago.

Mike

ATBs are not lockers.  They will still allow differential movement where there is grip to both wheels.  So, while that advice is good for locking differentials and may be good for “unlockers” like the Detroit, perhaps even prudent for strongly set conventional LSDs, I am pretty confident that ATBs won’t cause any serious adverse issues if installed in the front only.  Still, I think a rear ATB more important and useful than a centre ATB.

 

I think new tyres would be better than any ATBs at all.  I share your appreciation of that specific type, so replacing like with like would be good, but tread depth and deterioration of the rubber compound affect more than just puncture resistance.

 

As for suspension, your use doesn’t require any extra articulation and the standard set up, well maintained, would probably be the best of all options.

[Peaklander]

Thanks for the advice and comments again today. I am learning so much through these comments and it's interesting that there isn't always one "right thing to do".

Things are coming together in that I have made a start with the TB removal. I will move over to my vehicle build thread I think, with a link to that from here (and back again too probably). However, in terms of progress, I have drained the oil, removed the props, centre exhaust and the Roamerdrive. I have also lifted off the cubby and the heaterbox with D2 airheater, so that I have access from above. I have the difflock / Hi-Lo linkages to release, the breather is off and the reverse light switch too.

As I have the extended sump, it is flat underneath and might be OK for my trolley jack. I don't know if I should use this to carry the weight. I have an engine crane but it will be hard to get that in as I am very limited for space along the sides. I am going to think about it.

I mentioned earlier that I was probably going to look at the Roamerdrive but I think I will have to. It sounds rough now it is off, when I spin the input gear, with it both selected and de-selected. I need to do some research and I will upload a video in a new "Roamerdrive' thread, with the sound of what I assume is a failing bearing - it sounds horrible.