110 300TDi drivetrain improvements - recommendations please!

[Peaklander]

Hi, I'd like to ask for advice on the above topic as I think that it's time to do something. I will try to summarise my situation and the options that I think are relevant.

First of all my vehicle is a standard 1996 110 SW 300TDi, at about 170K miles with the only relevant mods being a Roamerdrive, and a little extra weight due to an Alucab Icarus lifting roof. We use the vehicle for road-trips in Europe, of up to about eight weeks, living in it as a camper. Most of the travelling is on tarmac but we do explore tracks but never look for challenges to test ourselves. (The hardest lane I have done in the UK is downhill on Old Road, behind Buxton). I have been in the Albanian Alps, high in Montenegro and the back roads of northern Greece but honestly most of you guys would smile at those 'challenges'.

So, bearing this in mind (and with a third trip across Spain now in our sights) I have started to think about upgrades to the drivetrain. I don't want to get stuck off the side of a loose surface, or in mud or even sand. We don't travel with anyone else, so if we were to have a problem, we are on our own. So far nothing has gone wrong in a getting-stuck-kind-of-way. I would obviously try not to get stuck and I know how to use the centre diff lock (before wheel spin). Something in my head says that I might be better with improved diffs at the Transfer box, at the Rover front and maybe at the Salisbury rear.

The LT230 diff is I think an easy choice because that would be the Ashcroft centre ATB. I am told that my LT230 will, at 170K miles, be in need of checks and an overhaul, specifically the front housing bush, intermediate shaft and the thrust washers. The washers are not relevant as the diff would be replaced. I can see how to overhaul it but I need access to a press but that is probably possible to get.

So, questions about the LT230:

Am I correct in thinking that this centre ATB is "a good improvement" as it means that I can drive without needing to think about early engagement of the centre diff lock and so eliminate the possibility of spinning the centre with the damage that causes?

Will it make driving on snow any better here in the UK because I can just carry on and not worry about needing to lock-up early?

Am I right thinking that the ATB will sort the probable worn diff components by eliminating them and I just need to check the condition of rest of the box?

The cost from Ashcroft could be £595 for the exchange LT230 and a further £300 to include them fitting the ATB, so thats £895 + VAT. I appear to be paying for a fully refurbed box even though the diff is replaced, although a discount of £50 is given. It would be about half that price if I buy the ATB (£350) and a refurb. kit and do it myself. It is straightforward from what I have been told and what I have seen on Youtube. Should I do it?

 

Now to the axles.  All half shafts are standard but in good condition, with Ashcroft drive members at the rear. My fronts have standard CVs

At the front, it's the standard Rover 2 pin diff. I was going to pull it anyway and check it over. I could replace the centre with a 4 pin open diff but why not go a step better? Now it gets interesting as I can choose ATB or Locker but the cost is starting to mount. Will I really feel an ATB at the front or will I get used to it? Can a lumbering 300TDi really make an ATB perform, as it needs some momentum to do the job of shifting torque to the side with more traction? Would a locker be better and then, would manual be better over mechanical?

 

If I think about the Salisbury rear, I can do the same, air locker, mechanical locker or fit the 'end of Feb-to-be released' Ashcroft ATB. I have read that a Detroit mechanical locker (DA5704) can be fitted and I just forget it and it just works. I have also read arguments (on here) suggesting that doing this reduces the strength of the whole unit.

Perhaps an ATB would be better for this axle too but again there's the suggestion that I will not get one to work properly if I am moving to slowly or indeed already stuck. How likely am I to be cross-axled in the first place I ask myself?

These polarised opinions about ATBs and Lockers, mean that I cannot decide which side to drop on, that's assuming I need to do anything, bearing in mind the weak front.

So, if you have read this far and you can help me make my choices, please let me know what you think.

 

 

[hurbie]

my advice would be to just rebuilt the 230 and leave it stock , youre not going crazy on the off-road bit , so the stock car will be all you need (as you already know) leaving it stock also is easier to get parts in case something breaks far away from home ....

[western]

I agree with hurbie's comments, 8n standard form the vehivle is more than capable, even Camel Trophy 110s were driveline factory standard & coped with more than your ever likely to see in your travels. 

[Snagger]

I’m fitting Ashcroft ATBs to both axles of my 109 because of how they will deal with bad winter roads.  If it had a centre diff, I’d have the ATB there too.  I think it works and gives exactly the wheel spin protection you mention, and I believe it is still lockable like the standard centre diff.  I just rebuilt a late final drive unit with an ATB and different R&P ratio, and it’ll need their 24-23 spline shafts for the Discovery front axle it is sporting, and will get the Salisbury rear that you are looking at. 
 

My  300Tdi RRC will also get their ATBs.  It’ll be expensive at the front end for the updated half shafts and CV joints as the 300 has weak 32 spline outer ends.  Since it’ll not be doing significant off road work, maybe I’ll leave that part out unless I break a shaft.  Since it has the BW transfer box, it already has a limited slip centre diff.

[Sigi_H]

Think about changing ratio to 1.1 if you want to overhaul the LT230 anyway. This will supersede the Roamerdrive and you can sell it. I did it on my 200Tdi and with only slight tuning this works perfect. The car is running with 4 gears up to 80 km/h and noise reduction in 5. is really great. Use the rev calculator at the ashcroft website to see the speeds.

If you think about a diff lock, put it in the front axle in order to make the axles quality better as well. In my eyes it has no sense to put the lock in the rear, but leave the 2-pin diff in the front.

 

[Arjan]

Totally up to you

We have taken both Series & "Defenders" to most places you mention and waay beyond with totally standard drive trains.

Just rebuild the TB with quality parts.

You're Greenlaning / Overlanding - not having a go at a P&P site.

Have Fun.

[Nonimouse]

Service the TBox, service the axles

The rest is nice and shiny, but for what you do and a whole lot more, simply spending money for something you don't need

[Peaklander]

Thanks for the feedback so far. It is difficult from where I'm sitting, to decide what to do, so the advice is priceless and helps me make an informed choice. Please keep it coming  as I haven't decided but need to do so soon.

Overhauling the Transfer Box is definite and I will do that but 

2 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

Think about changing ratio to 1.1 if you want to overhaul the LT230 anyway. This will supersede the Roamerdrive

A 1.1 ratio would change the gearing by 28%, the same as the Roamerdrive but I wouldn't have the choice as I do now, to switch it out. Most of the time I don't use the overdrive. It's only on motorways and other long roads that I do.

I need to look at what support cradle to make for the TB onto a trolley jack, also a press, the big socket that's needed.

 

I will also pull the Rover final drive out at the front axle and check it but I am still leaning towards upgrading from the standard to eliminate the known 2 pin weakness and so why not an ATB or locker?

Maybe I will leave the nice strong Salisbury for now.

[uninformed]

I think the Ashcroft atb for the LT230 is a good upgrade , if nothing else, to drivability. I have them to install in mine. While I haven’t driven on them yet a good friend gave it a good trial in his heavy 130 which spent 30% of its time on dirt roads.

 

Strength and reliability wise the rear is one of the strongest LR offered but the front is one of the weakest. While it may serve you just fine I would be very cautious about reversing on any incline especially loaded for travel. That’s when you’ll most likely have problems with the hemisphere or cvs or small cv input spline. 
 

And personally I would not change high range. Especially in a 300Tdi/R380. Having used one for work for 20 years and lighter than yours. What you gain in hwy performance you lose across the other gears and drivability. And yes I had stock size tyres…

Edited January 11, 2022 by uninformed

[Eightpot]

The standard set up is more than adequate so long as it's well maintained and checks are done regularly.  I've not managed to break one badly enough to prevent onward mobility in many years of overlanding in some very harsh environments.  Avoid driving where you might get bogged and spend your money on diesel & wine instead 🙂

[Bowie69]

I didn't reply initially as didn't want to appear to be the naysayer, but the others are right 😛 

ATB probably a nice upgrade in the middle, but any locker/ATB in the front will increase stress on shafts/CVs, so you then need to think about CV/shaft upgrades, which gets really expensive... really quickly.

Rear axle is strong, so leave it, unless you really want a locker of some sort, but again anything will mean shafts are put to more strain. A Detroit would probably be my choice, especially as you are LWB, literally fit and forget.

 

[Maverik]

I put an ATB in the back of axle on the 90 with some HD halfshafts for good measure, it improved the on road handling of the vehicle - not really off-road tested it, other than I've never got stuck anywhere while its been installed...

 

 

[toenden]

41 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I didn't reply initially as didn't want to appear to be the naysayer, but the others are right 😛 

ATB probably a nice upgrade in the middle, but any locker/ATB in the front will increase stress on shafts/CVs, so you then need to think about CV/shaft upgrades, which gets really expensive... really quickly.

Rear axle is strong, so leave it, unless you really want a locker of some sort, but again anything will mean shafts are put to more strain. A Detroit would probably be my choice, especially as you are LWB, literally fit and forget.

 

I agere, leave the drivetrain original. 🙂

But this about a ATB putting extra stress on the driveshafts, doesn't it (in theory) put less on each shaft as you are unlike to only be driving only one og them? Of course it does depend how much deeper into the wild you go "now youve got an ATB" 🙂

/mads

[Bowie69]

Well if

Just now, toenden said:

 

But this about a ATB putting extra stress on the driveshafts, doesn't it (in theory) put less on each shaft as you are unlike to only be driving only one og them? Of course it does depend how much deeper into the wild you go "now youve got an ATB" 🙂

/mads

Well, in theory it allows you to put more torque through one shaft in a one-wheel limited slip situation, the slipping one won't be doing much, and the torque has to go somewhere.

Same goes for lockers, but in a more extreme way, granted -anything that allows you to put torque through just one wheel of the axle is going to increase stress.

[Nonimouse]

Obviously I no longer drive a 110/100/90

I find with my 1.22 gearing that even running 235/85x16's I could use an overdrive - if I ever find a cheap, working GKN, I'll look to go that way.  I whole heartedly agree about retaining the OD and not going for the 1:1

I use/abuse my vehicle a lot more than you do. I have upgraded to four pinion 24 splines on front and rear - I think progressive upgrading to improve is essential on a Land Rover.  If I had the money I would upgrade to LSD's in the diffs. I have no interest in swapping one in to the T Box - I see no point, as I have a lever that locks it and unlocks it. That works. I don't need to up grade to LSD's as I have a near perfect suspension set up (for what I use the vehicle for) and near perfect tyres. But, I like an LSD and the way it effects the driveability of the vehicle.

[Stellaghost]

Silly question considering the topic, but have you got a winch, if your going alone and self reliant a winch would be my go to, any transmission can be prone to failure no matter how well you prep, as the saying goes " s..t happens, A decent winch will pull you over, out and though whatever even if you are reduced to 2 wheel drive and thus allow you a better chance to reach an area where issues can be sorted, just my thoughts

On another note I fitted a Salisbury axle with fiddle brakes to my lightweight years ago for modified trials, ran dumper tyres ( welded front diff )  also so loads of grip, this change massively improved my drivetrain strength, I went from smashing halfshafts and pinion, ring gears on a regular basis to virtually none at all, sometimes if " it ain't broke don't fix it " regards Stephen

[Blanco]

My old 110 (should never have sold it!) worked hard off road towing usually overloaded trailer or sawmill. It had Detroits front and rear they were great. Do I think you'll benefit? Probably not. Best ever tip for France and Spain is make sure it is all in good order before you go and carry a few choice spares with you. Spares availability is slow and expensive. If you want insurance then bang for buck the winch is hard to beat as Stephen has said, particularly with some stakes or a ground anchor.

[Peaklander]

Brilliant replies chaps. Got no time to digest right at the moment but I will.

Thanks so far

[reb78]

3 hours ago, Eightpot said:

 Avoid driving where you might get bogged and spend your money on diesel & wine instead 🙂

Exactly my sentiments.

The standard LR setup on these vehicles is pretty good as the others have mentioned above. Suspension is another example - everyone gets excited about expensive HD this and extreme that but the standard (genuine or actual OEM) springs and shocks (which are also cheap relative to some options) are good for the job and good quality.

I would keep your overdrive too (I have a working GKN) and appreciate the flexibility it brings (mainly as a 6th gear with the normal 1st gear upwards). You have a Roamerdrive so less to go wrong than the GKN. (I would like to put a 1.4:1 ratio box in my D2 and my spare GKN into that as I think it would drive even better than the 1.2:1 thats in there).

Edited January 11, 2022 by reb78

[Sigi_H]

"abusing" the LR is not affected by the longer ratio 1.1 😁

The low range will remain the same. It just makes driving and noise in the car at higher speeds the same like having an OD. The decision for the 1.1 ratio in a new LT230 saves a lot of weight and mechanics. I just wanted to say, that selling the Roamerdrive in this case makes the entire action cheaper and offers almost the same. I had a GKN OD before that and I never missed it.

Don't use the 1.1 if the car has to tow. First gear will get longer as well. I'm on journey with almost 3to and it works perfect.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Sigi_H

[rusty_wingnut]

Ever seen the videos of the three 80" Land Rovers who cross Europe regularly? 

 

No locker, no Power steering, no servo brakes. Most of the time the wipers aren't even working! Why on earth do you need lockers?

[Nonimouse]

When 'vehicle dependent travelling' it's worth checking out local enthusiast clubs.

In Portugal, for instance. the Portugese Land ROver club are amazing, incredibly friendly and always happy to help https://clubelandrover.pt/

[Tobias]

I have been thinking very similarly to you.

This last summer was spent on a lot of long winding semi-hi speed gravel, where I went in and out of diff lock, to see what difference it made. After that I had a mail-exchange with Ashcrofts and they confirm that the backlash in the LT230 will be less than stock, so by going for the ATB in the LT230 I would gain less hassle/driver dependance on going in and out of low traction stretches, less backlash, less mechanical "unreliability". I like.

For me, it will be worth the extra £395 or so, when spending considerable time and money on refurbing the LT230.

Front axle: Fit an Ashcroft LTB! It improves road handling, it improves traction, it improves mechanical reliaility. Again, if you go in to do maintenance, fit it!

I'v run Truetracs and Ashcroft LTBs on all my Land Rovers since about 2005 (I think six of them...) and it's the first thing I do as I buy one. After general service. It's worth it for the improved road handling alone!

 

Rear axle. I've thought long and hard and leave mine stock. Salisbury. This was before I learned that Ashcroft are going to release an ATB for them...

 

T

 

 

[Peaklander]

I don't know where to start with the thanks. Maybe I should cllck a load of 'likes' but it would be on every post 😀 The leave it alone feedback is just as good as go ahead and do the lot!

One thing is, it could clearly get expensive, quickly and yes I understand that lockers and ATBs can move the torque across to one side, so placing demands on the half shafts which adds to the cost.

The LT230 needs to come out and be checked over. I will do that. It will be new ground but I did rebuild the gearbox on my 88" and the internet was smaller then. I will get started with that in the next few days. Will I fit the centre ATB? The text on the Ashcroft website is very appealing. BTW @Snagger it does lock too. It is £345+VAT and that is after the overhaul parts cost. @Sigi_H honestly I can't see an advantage of the 1.1 ratio. I can't drive around here with my OD always selected, it's too high. I need to drive up the Winnats Pass in the morning and always drop into 2nd. I don't think OD+2nd will work but maybe I will try but straining in a high gear isn't good for the transmission anyway.

I really get the advice about don't get stuck, spend the money elsewhere @western, @reb78, @Nonimouse, @Arjan, @Bowie69, @rusty_wingnut and others but I might get stuck and we don't travel with anyone else. There's no-one as backup. In Albania it felt very lonely driving over into the back country. @Mo Murphy got admonished by the police for a wild-camp fry-up involving five vehicles. We don't do the convoy trips. @Stellaghost I don't want to rely on a winch - if I am going to spend anything, I would rather it helps with traction rather than sorting me out when I don't have any.

I drove all over the place in the snowy winters of 78/79, 81/82, 87, 09/10, 10/11 but this was in cars with narrow tyres and later with winter tyres (all my family have winter rims and tyres). I have done fewer snowy miles in my 110 than in any car.

I guess I will sleep on it, start the LT230, place an order with Ashcrofts and then pull the Rover from the front axle and see what I think. If that needs any work then I will spend money on a four pin open diff, at least...

Phew I hope that covers off all the comments. It probably doesn't so apologies if I read something else and comment later.

 

[Mo Murphy]

@Peaklander no, we don't do convoy trips either. That was a group of friends on a trip 😬👍

Mo