110 300TDi drivetrain improvements - recommendations please!

[uninformed]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:24 PM, miketomcat said:

I did Ladoga with stock front axle and transfer box, the rear axle had a borrowed locker and HD shafts. On 33" tyres. My ibex and 110 are both on stock drive train (the ibex had HD drive flanges solely to stop the leak) both get off roaded the ibex is used for marshaling our local site days. Both are on 33" tyres.  I run 1.4 transfer boxes, over drive would be nice but I don't feel I need one. If on stock tyres I would go to a 1.2.

As for yours assuming the rear axle is a Salisbury service all, recon the transfer box and throw a hi lift and some spares in the back (a winch or turfor is nice). Job done easy to fix unlikely to break given your use and spend the money on the trip.

Mike

 

Regarding your front end, early or late CVs?

[miketomcat]

4 hours ago, uninformed said:

Regarding your front end, early or late CVs?

The truck I did Ladoga in (45) and the ibex both have 24 spline 1994 discovery front axles. The ibex has an 86 Salisbury rear, 45 had a 24 spline discovery rear with uprated shafts and locker. The 110 has the original 10 spline 1983 front axle and Salisbury rear. 

I normally remove the tbox with two jack's under it and a strap under the gearbox, then roll the car forward and lower. But I have just bought this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Heavy-Duty-500kg-Motorcycle-Motor-Bike-Stand-Scissor-Lift-Jack-Workshop-/203219380359?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m2548.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

For gearbox removal and it works well.

Mike

[Sigi_H]

11 hours ago, Peaklander said:

As I have the extended sump, it is flat underneath and might be OK for my trolley jack. I don't know if I should use this to carry the weight. I have an engine crane but it will be hard to get that in as I am very limited for space along the sides. I am going to think about it.

Place a beam across the open windows and lower the gearbox with a pulley block

Edited January 14, 2022 by Sigi_H

[Peaklander]

I followed your advice and protected myself with the crane through the doorway. The box wasn't as heavy as it might be as I had removed the handbrake at the backplate and also because there's an overdrive, that meant once it was off there was no input gear or the spacer plate or pto cover.

I pulled it back on pieces of M10 stud which, as it's threaded, made it drag somewhat but at least the gearbox oputput shaft was protected.

I didn't remove the gearbox crossmember, although the workshop manual says so and also I only disconnected the T Box mount on the right side, not the gearbox mount on the other. The extended sump helped in steadying and lowering.

Here's some pictures for the record...

 

[Ed Poore]

Only skimmed through the thread but by putting lockers / LSDs in will ensure you get more stuck and then really wish you'd listened to @Stellaghost's advice and got a winch . I've got an Ashlocker in the front, rear and obviously a lockable LT230 (sleeved and HD cross-pin) - since I was in there I also put Ashcroft HD shafts, CVs and drive flanges in. People say it moves the weak-point elsewhere, I just wasn't expecting it to be two crankshafts . I'm solving that (hopefully) by putting a 240hp petrol V8 in instead 

I don't think it's been mentioned but remember a locker is pre-emptive whereas LSDs are reactive. Fundamentally you're already beginning to lose some form of traction when the LSD engages, you may not get to that point with a locker. Yes you have to manually engage them but oh such a hardship in this day and age pushing a button on the dash .

 

[Peaklander]

1 hour ago, Ed Poore said:

by putting lockers / LSDs in will ensure you get more stuck and then really wish you'd listened to @Stellaghost's advice and got a winch

Ha, I have listened to all the advice and have decided on no ATBs or lockers for now. I will get the cross pin and sleeved case plus I will upgrade the front to a 4 pin diff. As I said elsewhere, I will look at driving style and be ready to alter tyre pressures.

[uninformed]

As much if not more could be said for Winches re getting stuck. Clearly the whole thing is subjective but I personally think a winch is the biggest false positive for a 4x4. Firstly most are on a budget and are generally average units and on top of which are installed to a bare minimum. Secondly and just as importantly, they offer absolutely NO improvement to the strength, reliability or drivability of a vehicle. They mostly give a false confidence and get people in more trouble than out.

People soon get a hard dose of reality when getting stuck and winching for the first time, more so if a suitable anchor point is a problem 

I would 100% ALWAYS build a stronger more reliable and functional vehicle before adding a winch. 
 

 

[Sigi_H]

If you have never tried the winch in a driving terrain before a serious need, then you have a completely different problem.

There you will find out what it can and cannot do 😁

Using a winch in Iceland or in a dessert can be hard 😂

[Snagger]

The other thing with winches is that they would be far better installed on the back, to pull you straight out of what stopped you, rather than having to continue through it, but that is more difficult because of fuel tanks, rear doors, tow hitches and so on.

As for the benefits of full locking diffs over ATBs or LSDs, yes, they are better for extremely slippery conditions like deep mud and for cross axle conditions like rock crawling.  They are probably a fair bit better for deep sand too.  But you can’t use them on winter roads with patchy conditions without forcing one tyre to lose grip in even modest turns - that is where ATBs are so much better.  So, as Peaklander remarked, there are different solutions that are appropriate to different needs.  It has nothing to do with being too idle to select them on or off.  They also have the advantage of much simpler installation and being maintenance free (beyond oil changes), unlike locking diffs, which need electrical and pneumatic fittings, compressors, controls, warning lights and more, and have a tendency to wear their seals and fail to operate reliably if not periodically removed and rebuilt.  If you are not using it for quarries, arduous off road conditions or competition, then an ATB should suit most people well.

[Mo Murphy]

It's all about the tyres. How well those 4 palm sized contact patches transmit drive.

Mo

[Peaklander]

34 minutes ago, Mo Murphy said:

It's all about the tyres

I do need new tyres as mine are well worn (four out of the five) and old (35K miles and seven years). Now to open-up more discussion...

They are BFG ATs on boost alloys but I have an unused set of genuine Wolf rims...

Should I move over to the Wolfs and if so, leave in the green or should they be painted? What tyres -235/85 BFG ATs again or should I move up to 285/55 and gain a little extra height? Anyone running ATs in this profile and what brand are they?

[reb78]

Wow. 35k on BFG ATs? I got over 100k on the last two I changed!

[Peaklander]

Yes that's all. I will measure the tread though. I suppose it depends on that.

What was left on yours at 100K?

[Ed Poore]

70k on a set of KM2 muds and I replaced them because the tread was worn out at 10mm...

[reb78]

4 hours ago, Peaklander said:

Yes that's all. I will measure the tread though. I suppose it depends on that.

What was left on yours at 100K?

They were just legal but i didnt want to do another snowy winter on them. Probably only 2-2.5mm left. I got a puncture in one and just replaced the pair rather than pay for a repair when i planned to replace them. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by reb78

[Peaklander]

The unused spare has 13mm

Rears have 8

Fronts have 5/6 and 3/4 so a bit uneven.

@Bowie69made me stop and think about their age (7 years)

Edit: Steering was checked at some point. Will need doing again now I've pulled the shafts to get at the diff for Nige to work on. I have leaky swivels again and need to see if i can Devcon the pitting, as I did 7 years ago. Or maybe I need some new ones.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Peaklander

[Peaklander]

Right, decisions have been made.

Transfer box is going to Ashcrofts in the morning for a sleeved case, HD cross-pin and then I need to specify the Intermediate shaft and rear output shaft. Choices are refurb., new OEM or new HD - can anyone advise on the relative merit of the refurb shaft and pin and new OEM parts please?

After talking to Ashcroft and then Nige at 4x4 Xcess (link), I am getting a new 4pin Ashcroft diff with a new Ring and Pinion built into a final drive from Mr Nige.

[uninformed]

Is there anything wrong with your t/case shafts? If the OEM are as good as genuine they should be fine. Ask Ashcroft if either are a point of wear or failure?

 

what is wrong with your CW&P to require a new one?

 

Tyre, get the size you can readily get spares in if a replacement is needed. I’ll personally be running 255/85 but there are very few in that size and availability in places can be nil

Edited January 20, 2022 by uninformed

[Peaklander]

When you order an exchange box or they rebuild your own (same lead time), you need to specify what you want on Intermediate shaft and rear output shaft. The options are Recon., new OEM and new HD. I have asked Ashcrofts twice in emails, what they recommend in my case but both times got no reply. As I am dropping it off in person tomorrow, I will ask again.

@Hybrid_From_Hell is the chief-cook-and-bottle-washer at Xcess4x4. I asked for his advice about upgrading my original 2 pin long nosed Rover final drive to a 4 pin. He says that no matter how much setting-up he does, it will never be a quiet, new unit. He recommends a new CW & P, made by Antonio Maserio and it then means I get a "fit & forget" new unit from a source that has had no warranty returns. I'm happy with that.

[deep]

Like many here, I have had several Land Rovers/Range Rovers over quite a few decades and have used them everywhere from motorways to remote deserts to gravelly rivers, big hills and boggy mud.  I have found three things that damage the transmission. 1) buying off an idiot with a lead foot; 2) teaching teenagers hillstarts; 3) towing a stalled horse truck up a steep hill.  The damage doesn't happen at the time but shortly after, as twisted shafts get a reverse load or two and then snap.  Land Rover drivetrains just aren't as weak as people make out, if you understand they weren't designed for lots of revs and bouncing (which is the trendy way to send a vehicle up a rutted or muddy hill these days).  Being worried and fitting stronger components isn't a bad idea at all but it's really only for peace of mind.

I've never had a diff locker or any traction control (until I bought my Freelander 2 a year ago).  Land Rover's great weight distribution and compliant suspension will take you a long way.  Adding those things will take you a little further and make you that little bit harder to recover, so I think you've made a wise decision there.

I had a cheap but very strong Runva  13,500lb winch on a couple of my previous Land Rovers.  It was excellent for hauling logs and pulling trees.  A couple of times, it was even in a good position to pull me out of trouble.  I always carry a Tirfor winch in the car, along with extra strop/chain/cable for more reach.  It's also pulled logs and trees but has been far more useful for pulling my car out because it goes forwards, backwards, sideways etc. and doesn't need a battery.  Use it once and you will be more careful because it is hard work!

As this thread has progressed, the issue of tyres has come up.  Personally, I don't think you gain anything by getting bigger than 255/85s.  285/75s are wider, not taller.  Anything wider interferes with chassis/body/steering lock etc. and Land Rovers don't like them.  Tall and skinny gives less drag, more directional certainty and rolls over obstacles better than shorter and wider and 255/85s maximise that without modifications.  BFG KM3s work brilliantly in most conditions.  Snowy and icy roads probably are best treated with dedicated snow tyres, though if the snow is soft on a soft track the KM3s work pretty well.

[Peaklander]

3 minutes ago, deep said:

255/85s maximise that without modifications

Yes they are what I meant (33"). I can see I made a typo back up the thread!

[elbekko]

Bit late to the party here, but interesting thread.

Having driven my RRC with both a BW with viscous coupling and an LT230, I'd go for the LT230 ATB in a heartbeat. Especially if you're doing snow and ice.

[uninformed]

If your current CW&P is in good working condition and not noisy, then no reason it shouldn’t go back that way. Checking backlash, gear pattern and “timing” them BEFORE strip down goes a long way to correct refit. Although some AM stuff is good, the genuine LR items are known to be made from good materials and heat treatment. Items like stub axles and swivel balls I would always buy Genuine over AM. If I was retaining 3.54-1 I would have stayed with my genuine fitted items. 
 

But you can only go off the advice given to you by those you are using. I personally would have just got Ashcroft to do the lot. (actually I do that stuff myself but you know what I mean) 

[Anderzander]

This is a great thread for others to follow who have the same questions - really well explained and balanced views.

[Peaklander]

7 hours ago, elbekko said:

I'd go for the LT230 ATB in a heartbeat. Especially if you're doing snow and ice.

It's not too late and I will think about it again as I drive down the M1 in a few minutes to drop it off.