EV conversions

[Anderzander]

Across numerous threads I think we’ve mentioned various EV’s, like the Rivian truck , EV conversions like the Jaunt vehicles - so I thought it might be worth having a thread where we can focus on conversion for Land Rover’s ?

Something I saw that was interesting:

I saw a review of a new EV in the states - a company called Lucid. Headed up by the chief engineer on the Tesla Model S.

Who have made new motors - and they are tiny and super powerful….

So efficient too that though the car is the size of a BMW M5 it has a range of over 500 miles.

Everyone seems to have been looking to better batteries to increase range - they’ve gone down the more efficient motors route.

So it’s starting to look like a new wave of potential crate motors or motor swaps - that will be more viable …

 

[Anderzander]

For info on anyone who’s missed these:

https://youtube.com/c/Jauntmotors
 

 

[cackshifter]

I know ElectricClassicCars have converted at least 2 Defenders and a RRC https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/. You can see one of the Defenders(not the new ones) on VintageVoltage which is a Discovery series (I think anyway). 

[cackshifter]

There must be a market out there to supply bits for the people that like them and maybe want to get rid of IC power, and yet can't afford their prices. I have wondered if there is also a possibility of hybridisation, maybe off the PTO, as full electric doesn't seem up to handling towing very far yet. 

[HoSS]

🙄 Just no

 

[jeremy996]

To be fair to Lucid, they build or commission most of the car technology, even the batteries, (except the cells). There is a First Drives: 300 mile test on the Lucid Air with some words from Peter Rawlinson, (ex principal Engineer, Jaguar Cars, ex Chief Engineer at Lotus, ex Head of vehicle Engineering, Corus Automotive, Ex Tesla, (mainly the S), then Lucid), in the April 2022 Car Magazine.

Twisted offer a expensive BEV conversion on the Defender, they are coy about price but £85k seems typical. (with whatever Twisted upgrades are included).

Ford will sell you a crate electric motor already, like the ones in a Mustang Mach E,

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by jeremy996
Adding Twisted and Ford stuff

[FridgeFreezer]

Honestly EV conversions are definitely the future - but the batteries still suck as of now, and the cost of them is huge.

I also don't really like the current state of a lot of the conversions, even "professional" ones, given how risky the current-generation lithium batteries are - Tesla et al throw millions in R&D into finely controlling & monitoring their battery packs, then some bloke in a shed rips it out of a crashed Tesla, slaps an aftermarket control module on and crams it into a classic car.

It reminds me of the wild west of shonky LPG conversions back in the day that seemed great from afar but were all scotchloks, self-tappers, and screwfix plumbing supplies if you delved into them.

[western]

14 hours ago, cackshifter said:

I know ElectricClassicCars have converted at least 2 Defenders and a RRC https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/. You can see one of the Defenders(not the new ones) on VintageVoltage which is a Discovery series (I think anyway). 

There is a article on the green EV 90 that appeared on Fifth Gear Recharged in the Spring edition of LRO mag, it says ECC who are on tv as vintage voltage have converted at least 10 90/110 vehicles but the conversion cost is over £40,000.

[HoSS]

I personally will never own a battery EV. Its a step backwards in convenience and usability, and battery technology is worse for the environment than fuel cars.

Have a read of this: Volvo report (Eco break even time is less than battery life)

In short battery EV's are a stop-gap. Yes we do need to ditch fossil fuels, but the battery fad is not the answer, wasting time on it rather than developing and deploying hydrogen fuel cell will be worse for the planet in the long run.

..plus what Fridge said about bodging high-current inflammable batteries into DIY installs... Most car fires are of electrical origin (not fuel) and thats with a std 12v lump.

[smallfry]

Then there is the voltages used. Enough to do you serious harm. Think railway live rail.

[smallfry]

9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

It reminds me of the wild west of shonky LPG conversions back in the day that seemed great from afar but were all scotchloks, self-tappers, and screwfix plumbing supplies if you delved into them.

Last year we went to an Agricultural show. There was a stand with a new MG (Tata) EV on show with the bonnet up. It looked to be a bit like this !

[rusty_wingnut]

You cannot get away from oil/gas unless you want to rewind 150yrs. So forget the laptop/phone/cars/clothes from different designers etc the list goes on and on.

 

 

[reb78]

56 minutes ago, smallfry said:

Last year we went to an Agricultural show. There was a stand with a new MG (Tata) EV on show with the bonnet up. It looked to be a bit like this !

Its worse than that - MG are owned by SAIC arent they? So chinese electronic tat.... 

[Nonimouse]

That chap's spotter should retire, soon. Alomst like he was deliberately trying to ruin the climb

[Snagger]

12 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Honestly EV conversions are definitely the future - but the batteries still suck as of now, and the cost of them is huge.

I also don't really like the current state of a lot of the conversions, even "professional" ones, given how risky the current-generation lithium batteries are - Tesla et al throw millions in R&D into finely controlling & monitoring their battery packs, then some bloke in a shed rips it out of a crashed Tesla, slaps an aftermarket control module on and crams it into a classic car.

It reminds me of the wild west of shonky LPG conversions back in the day that seemed great from afar but were all scotchloks, self-tappers, and screwfix plumbing supplies if you delved into them.

I think so too.  There are some elements that I really like - the smoothness, torque band, quiet, easy servicing and lack of leaks are appealing.  The range issues are not.  I don’t think I’ll ever have to worry about not having a driveway to park and recharge on, unlike many city folk for whom it’s a huge issue, but even with just a commute rather than big treks, range is a problem for converted cars.  I like the idea, but the batteries are just not there yet, and older batteries used in conversions, especially managed by very rudimentary controllers, are poor performers for the cost, weight and volume they require.  
 

I think it’s great to see so many pioneering businesses take the risk and do some great work along this path.  I really like Dave Budge’s (Jaunt) efforts and ethos.   Without those business, this is a path that would never be walked.  But for those of us who need all weather, all year year around vehicles with an all-purpose ability, not just a fair weather toy or school run and Tesco shopper, we have a bit more of a wait.  The UK, Northern European and Northern US/Canadian weather is just to energy sapping for large parts of the year for these vehicles to be viable - even the high tech, purpose built high-efficiency EVs suffer in those conditions.

[jeremy996]

7 hours ago, HoSS said:

I personally will never own a battery EV. Its a step backwards in convenience and usability, and battery technology is worse for the environment than fuel cars.

Have a read of this: Volvo report (Eco break even time is less than battery life)

In short battery EV's are a stop-gap. Yes we do need to ditch fossil fuels, but the battery fad is not the answer, wasting time on it rather than developing and deploying hydrogen fuel cell will be worse for the planet in the long run.

..plus what Fridge said about bodging high-current inflammable batteries into DIY installs... Most car fires are of electrical origin (not fuel) and thats with a std 12v lump.

Having seen the Volvo report before, I cannot see how you came to your conclusion. Even using high carbon electricity, the BEV Volvo has a lower footprint than the ICE car, within the BEV design life, page 25. I would be interested to understand your thought process.

I really do not see the hydrogen fuel cell being much more than a niche; why accept all of the energy losses from electrolysis, storage and distribution of hydrogen when a BEV is double or treble the efficiency? If you start with electricity, it makes sense to avoid any additional processes, as each one just drags down the useable energy. (I have some shares in Riversimple, so I don't mind being wrong!)

As a guide, the reciprocating steam engine is around 5% efficient, a ICE car about 35% efficient, a BEV about 85-90% efficient and a HFC BEV about 35% efficient when accounting for the losses in energy conversion and distribution. The obvious niche for hydrogen is for high utilisation heavy plant, (365/24/7), where rapid refuelling is available, (Ineos Grenadier as a site vehicle in a refinery), where free or even paid to consume electricity is available, to act as an energy store. We do not have anything like that level of redundancy yet.

Edited March 15, 2022 by jeremy996
speeling

[mad_pete]

- Tesla et al throw millions in R&D into finely controlling & monitoring their battery packs, then some bloke in a shed rips it out of a crashed Tesla, slaps an aftermarket control module on and crams it into a classic car.
 

Ermm isn’t this what megasquirt does for engines ?

pretty sure my engine came out of a classic and got crammed into a defender by me.

[FridgeFreezer]

13 minutes ago, mad_pete said:

Ermm isn’t this what megasquirt does for engines ?

pretty sure my engine came out of a classic and got crammed into a defender by me.

Not really - and it's got very different risks; you can run an engine quite safely and satisfactorily when all you've got to get right is squirting roughly the right amount of fuel and then setting it alight at about the right time.

With current-gen batteries it's basically a self-fuelling fire in a box that someone's taking a "best-guess" at transplanting into something else and hoping that what they did isn't enough to upset the angry pixies inside. Watching channels like Munro Live, the BMS on modern EV's are incredibly complex with very sophisticated electronics, and it's only through this level of complexity that they can squeeze the performance they do from the battery pack.

It's a bit like playing "guess how much pressure my LPG tank can hold" you won't know until you get it wrong, and then you're having a bad day.

[Bowie69]

Plus 600 volts ****DC****.

Brush your hand against the wrong thing and you're toast.

[Nonimouse]

How big is your carbon hole?

I was on a course, last week, with one of the senior concrete engineers at Hinkley C.  Some of the specialist mixes are so high carbon as to be scary. Carbon hole on a car is 7-10 years, Hinkley will be 100+. 

Creating carbon figures is easy - much like rolling dice. Every vehicle is worked on a 'factory' figure, concrete is worked on a 'factory' figure. Better to have some common sense and create better carbon sinks*, stop pointing the stupid finger at any and all 'causes'

*with a wetter climate, we can easily re-wet existing wetland and create more, stop the 'tree planting will save us' waffle, learn to be sustainable....

 

[Anderzander]

10 hours ago, rusty_wingnut said:

You cannot get away from oil/gas unless you want to rewind 150yrs. So forget the laptop/phone/cars/clothes from different designers etc the list goes on and on.

 

 

100% and not something you often here.Fossil fuels are in everything from condoms to plastic. Changing the fuels on our cars is on of many many steps that would need to be taken to break our dependence. 
 

Let alone the energy boost we seem to now be ignoring.

[monkie]

6 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Having seen the Volvo report before, I cannot see how you came to your conclusion. Even using high carbon electricity, the BEV Volvo has a lower footprint than the ICE car, within the BEV design life, page 25. I would be interested to understand your thought process.

I really do not see the hydrogen fuel cell being much more than a niche; why accept all of the energy losses from electrolysis, storage and distribution of hydrogen when a BEV is double or treble the efficiency? If you start with electricity, it makes sense to avoid any additional processes, as each one just drags down the useable energy. (I have some shares in Riversimple, so I don't mind being wrong!)

As a guide, the reciprocating steam engine is around 5% efficient, a ICE car about 35% efficient, a BEV about 85-90% efficient and a HFC BEV about 35% efficient when accounting for the losses in energy conversion and distribution. The obvious niche for hydrogen is for high utilisation heavy plant, (365/24/7), where rapid refuelling is available, (Ineos Grenadier as a site vehicle in a refinery), where free or even paid to consume electricity is available, to act as an energy store. We do not have anything like that level of redundancy yet.

I agree.

When some people compare carbon output of an EV vs ICE vehicle, they often neglect the fact that petrol or diesel has a load of carbon emissions associated with it before you even burn it in your vehicle. 

Also in terms of hydrogen, it isn't an energy source in the sense petrol and diesel are, its just a temporary store of energy. For that reason I too can't see Hydrogen taking off at all. 

I think EVs will really start taking over from ICE vehicles when battery and charing technology is such that charging at home becomes unnecessary. Instead you are able to top up the battery in minutes locally just like filling up with fuel, then go home. That way it doesn't matter if you don't have a drive or maybe live in a flat. 

[Bowie69]

Minutes to charge an EV will never happen, e.g. 100KWh battery in 6mins = 1000KW.

That's 1000 electric fires. Infrastructure just can't do that.

 

 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

17 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Minutes to charge an EV will never happen, e.g. 100KWh battery in 6mins = 1000KW.

That's 1000 electric fires. Infrastructure just can't do that.

Charging stations with battery/capacitor banks could - maybe not on current tech but it's not outside the realms. Say 10 mins to charge an EV and then slow recharge from grid etc. over an hour or more.

If they're common enough to be like petrol pumps you could have a big "tank" battery at the station and shift electrons pretty rapidly during peak times and then recharge overnight on cheap renewables.

 

But it all comes back to batteries - current ones suck, and the last decade of iterations are impressive but ultimately tinkering around the edges compared to leaps forward like we have seen in chips where they go up orders of magnitude every few years.

The new Apple laptop chip outperforms a supercomputer from 2002, that's the sort of jump we need in batteries, or even a tiny fraction of that.

[smallfry]

27 minutes ago, monkie said:

I think EVs will really start taking over from ICE vehicles when battery and charging technology is such that charging at home becomes unnecessary. Instead you are able to top up the battery in minutes locally just like filling up with fuel, then go home. That way it doesn't matter if you don't have a drive or maybe live in a flat. 

Unless they come up something radical and as yet undiscovered, I dont see this happening anytime soon.