Electric conversion prices coming down?

[miketomcat]

It is odd that currently the best cars to convert are small light and weight. The same cars that are already quite efficient and if you were to bin all the extra un-nessasary equipment would be more so. What really needs to be addressed are the big "gas guzzling" cars, the only real reason to own anything sub 30mpg is heavy towing. If a sub 30mpg car it doesn't have a towbar (and one that's used) it is pointless as there are plenty of 60mpg cars that will do the same job.

The idea of hybriding a land rover through the PTO is I think genius moving forwards. As it allows it to do all the thinks it was designed for whilst theoretically making it more efficient and cleaner. However my big worry is you spend all this cash converting you car only to find it won't be reclassified because it doesn't fit the government box. 

Mike

[Snagger]

Maybe, but economically it just isn’t ever going to stack up in many countries.  The UK has ended grants for purchase of new EVs and never had a grant system to support conversions, but the calls for charging (😉) EVs taxes by the Mike (or km) or implement a tyre tax are getting ever more frequent and louder.  It will happen, likely after the next elections, and realistically has to be done to regain the revenues lost from fuel duty and VAT on the fuel and fuel duty (yes, the UK really does tax the fuel tax).  Add the soaring increase in electricity costs, and recent massive rises in battery materials costs and battery production, and the figures become sobering.  There is no economic incentive to conversions, only buying EVs instead of comparably priced ICE vehicles outright.

[sean f]

I can't see how the government (which every party is in power) won't end up charging EV's in some form or another, current estimate (RAC) is they get approx £30billion a year from VED and direct taxation on motorists, way over the total spent on roads so make a big profit which funds other government spending, the spending on roads will hopefully not decrease any more (you already just about need a 4x4 for some of the country roads round here) so the money has to be replaced from somewhere. What form this will take I have no idea but I would guess the zero VED rate will be dropped for "luxury" or higher power EV's and then slowly increased and get brought in for smaller EV's as revenue for normal vehicles decreases.

One thing I wonder about and I expect someone on here will be able to answer, I have a private driveway so could charge a car at home, most of the village I live in doesn't so have to park on roads, running a cable out the window and across the pavement and over to a car parked on the other side of the road is not going to happen, the safety and legal issues would be huge, and you just know someone will "trip" on one and try and claim compensation. So how much do commercial charging stations actually charge for power (compared to the cost of getting it from a plug socket at home) and would it be viable or even possible at the moment in most places to run a EV only using only commercial charging points?.

I suspect the end of life for most EV's will be when parts or often one specific part is unavailable and can't be viably made by a different company, I believe this is already the case with older Tesla cars display screens, as technology changes its likely that some older tech will be banned or restricted (how many working battery drills have you binned because the battery has died and are no longer available). When EV's are more common and a bigger volume I expect some clever person will be able to create work arounds to install new display screens or new control modules in older vehicles ( a modern version of megasquirt!) but no idea how or if it would be financially viable or something along the line of remapping for extra performance as you can do on a conventional vehicle, I would guess it is mostly a software / firmware and interfacing issue, wouldn't have a clue how to do it myself but I bet other people are already doing it to some extent even if not legally.

[simonr]

My bet is, eventually, we will be taxed per mile.  Cars will have to log all the miles driven & send the data to the revenue.  This needs to be automated or people will be more likely to cheat.

In practice, it's little different in cost from tax on fuel. 

People always will (and already are) work(ing) around the hardware / software in EV's as they do with ICE vehicles.  While you say it's beyond you, how much of the detailed operation of a modern car do most people understand?  EV's, if anything, are simpler.

Mapping will still exist.  Tesla have caught on to that & for many vehicles you can buy & download a power upgrade!

There will still be the same groups of 'eccentrics' upgrading & modifying EV's.  Just look on YouTube for the people modding Teslas.  Lots of people changing motors, controllers & batteries in other EV's and hacking the software to suit.  The only difference to the past is now you need spanners AND a computer.  I can see that for many of us wrinklies that does not sound appealing - but for younger hardware hackers, it's a dream come true!  If anything, it opens up a dying interest to a new generation.

At the moment, it's possible but difficult to run an EV only using commercial charge points.  Impossible in more rural areas I suspect.  I think, eventually, charge points will be built into lamp-posts as the power hardware already exists.  These will be slow, overnight chargers though, not Tesla Super-Chargers.  Local & National Government will eventually figure it out.

[Snagger]

Sean, I think commercial chargers would vary in price depending on location, brand and time/day of the week.  I’d guess it’d vary between 4-10 times the price of home charging for the same time/day, from what I have read on it.  It’s not going to be good value for routine charging.

I think roadside charging will have to be commonplace.  Whether it be pop-up chargers in the kerbside like shown on some YouTube channels, or fixed bollards wired to the grid or, where there is dedicated street or car park parking, to a domestic system.  The time taken to charge batteries don’t make charging stations on the scale of petrol forecourts adequate.  If, however, battery tech gets to the point of being fast enough to compare to filling a tank, that will be different.  Still, I think many homeowners will want private charging even where they don’t have a driveway unless station prices are more regulated, and those with solar systems will be very keen to do so.

[simonr]

This:
https://www.novunavehiclesolutions.co.uk/news-and-insights/electric-vehicles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/

Seems to suggest that current charge pricing in the UK is pretty good.  It says the average cost per kWh for home charging in the UK is £0.28, which is roughly what I'm paying.

There are still free chargers in the UK - but I doubt they will last long!  Prices seem to vary from £0.26 to £0.70 in different locations.  I did wonder about charging an EV at one of the free charge points (400m from my house), then running the house off the car in the evening! 😮😈

Here's a map with prices:
https://network.bppulse.co.uk/live-map/?_ga=2.124986698.1365219124.1656867531-436549258.1656867531

[L19MUD]

15 hours ago, simonr said:

 I did wonder about charging an EV at one of the free charge points (400m from my house), then running the house off the car in the evening! 😮😈

 

Love this idea! 

 

The new Ford F150 lightning uses the ability to back power your house in a power cut as one of it's key selling points

[FridgeFreezer]

The worries about all the screens and stuff in EV's are sort of valid - but every car these days is full of the same stuff so it's not unique to EV's, and unlike modern ICE cars, EV's are a fairly simple system underneath it all - you have a battery pack, you have a 3-phase motor, you have a charger and a motor controller, and a lot of that stuff is already reverse-engineered in terms of controlling it or aftermarket or even open-source alternatives exist... a bit like megasquirt, but the task is significantly less complex because there's fewer "engine" parameters that need mapping for the thing to work.

[Snagger]

Yep.  Any car built in the last 15 years or so will have many ECUs, and most built in the last five or more have a lot of functions controlled by touchscreen.  The ICE vehicle still have the extra relative complexity of an engine with a lot of moving parts, most of them reciprocating, bearings dealing with high thrust or tangential forces, materials having to deal with significant variations in temperature while not affecting tolerances, the consequences of combustion and carbon deposits and complex transmissions.  The fuel tanks have to deal with condensation, sediment, corrosion and an increasing incidence of drills and buckets.  EVs do seem very simple by comparison!

[FridgeFreezer]

Interesting to note that Pikes Peak is seeing more EV's as they're not affected by altitude, so the drivers need oxygen but the cars don't

[geoffbeaumont]

12 hours ago, Snagger said:

Yep.  Any car built in the last 15 years or so will have many ECUs, and most built in the last five or more have a lot of functions controlled by touchscreen.

And this is combined in some cases with no real information to allow you to work on the vehicle. Case in point, our 2015 Zafira C - no workshop manual available as far as I've been able to find out (even online, since Vauxhall and Opel were sold to PSA). Only thing I could find was Haynes online manual - that was a complete waste of money. It's got wiring diagrams, which may be correct - but given at least some of the extremely patchy location diagrams are completely wrong I wouldn't want to bet on it. There's so much information missing it's impossible to fault trace using it. Need to check the pins on the deadlock relay? Where's that then? And nothing on procedures (it's got a section for that - but it turns out to just have generic and very high level descriptions for any car. Basically useless and effectively a scam.

[smallfry]

1 hour ago, geoffbeaumont said:

1 hour ago, geoffbeaumont said:

And this is combined in some cases with no real information to allow you to work on the vehicle. Case in point, our 2015 Zafira C - no workshop manual available as far as I've been able to find out (even online, since Vauxhall and Opel were sold to PSA). Only thing I could find was Haynes online manual - that was a complete waste of money. It's got wiring diagrams, which may be correct - but given at least some of the extremely patchy location diagrams are completely wrong I wouldn't want to bet on it. There's so much information missing it's impossible to fault trace using it. Need to check the pins on the deadlock relay? Where's that then? And nothing on procedures (it's got a section for that - but it turns out to just have generic and very high level descriptions for any car. Basically useless and effectively a scam.

I  have noticed this with Haynes manuals these days. PSA and Renault do not seem to issue much information outside of a dealer. I bought one recently for a 2012 Renault Trafic van, but its only fairly well covered because is more or less the same as a Vauxhall Vivaro of a similar vintage. For a newer one, forget it.

Haynes manuals back in the day covered anything, including dismantling the gearbox (except autos) and differentials. Days of that are long gone.

 

[deep]

I have to be a little cynical about the projected reliability of electric vehicles.  One moving part?  My Freelander 2 is the least reliable of the twenty or so Rover/Land Rover/Range Rovers I've had.  In fact, it's left me stranded on the side of the road three times.  It's not the hugely complicated mechanical engine/transmission at fault.  It's starter motor and alternator failure.  You know, the components with one moving part!  Internal combustion engines rarely fail in themselves (other than starters, alternators or water pumps) but electric/electronic failures are fairly common.  Factor in the "show-off" electronics (your Rivian can now be left at a suitable temperature for your pets while you go shopping...) and I'd say electric vehicles are no less complex, nor easier to fix than any other car (though they certainly could be, witness the milk float in "Open All Hours").  Plus, it seems inevitable that you'll run out of juice one day and you can't just grab a tin of petrol and put it in the tank!

So, if you are converting an older car, you bypass a lot of that electronic complexity but I'm not ultra sure you are increasing reliability.  Old Land Rovers (pre electronic) need constant maintenance but very rarely actually conk out and leave you stranded.  The weakest link is generally considered to be the half shafts and an electric motor with lots of low-down torque won't help that at all.

Having said all that, I'd love to convert my Series 3, just to see for myself.  That's because I like learning new things and it would be interesting, plus it rarely strays far from home so the negatives don't matter.

[elbekko]

9 hours ago, deep said:

It's not the hugely complicated mechanical engine/transmission at fault.  It's starter motor and alternator failure.

A lot of that is solved with liquid cooling, so the motors can be sealed. Alternators and starters usually die because they get crud in them.

But yes, there's a lot of electronic components that can go wrong.

[geoffbeaumont]

10 hours ago, deep said:

Factor in the "show-off" electronics (your Rivian can now be left at a suitable temperature for your pets while you go shopping...)

No argument about modern cars having unnecessary complexity, but that's actually something I've thought would be a really good idea and included in imaginary vapour trucks (yeah, I lead a sad existence...). As long as it's tied into an alert (maybe a text message) if the temperature rises above a certain level so if it fails you can get back before Fido is in danger. I reckon it'd also need an externally visible temperate display to hopefully dissuade the RSPCA from breaking in to rescue Fido from his nice air conditioned kennel!

[FridgeFreezer]

@geoffbeaumont Tesla have a "pets in car mode", it displays a large easily-readable message on the dash/screen so that anyone looking in can see it's all under control. I'm sure you can monitor it from an app too, for those that like that sort of thing.

[cackshifter]

Anybody know what happens if you are in an EV and run out of charge on the motorway? Do you get shipped to a service area or charged in situ?

[FridgeFreezer]

1 minute ago, cackshifter said:

Anybody know what happens if you are in an EV and run out of charge on the motorway? Do you get shipped to a service area or charged in situ?

Depends on the breakdown company I'd guess, there's definitely small vans with diesel gensets in the back that will come out & charge you up, and I imagine that will be bigger and bigger business in future.

Someone did prove you can charge a Tesla by towing it behind a V8 Mercedes but it takes a lot of oomph to put kilowatts back into a battery that way.

[Snagger]

I imagine that portable diesel generators for recharging EVs will be legislated against or taxed into oblivion if they become as common as will be needed.  They would completely undermine the environmental claims of the EVs and the authorities while also causing an obstruction to last much longer than just towing it away, unlike simply refilling an ICE vehicle.

[David Sparkes]

I'm with Britannia Rescue; their policy is to take you to a convenient charge point, although I suspect this might not be a 'supercharger' of some sort, even if that is your preference.

I take something of a strong view on this, there should be some 'penalty' if your management is so bad that you fail to keep your vehicle charged. Personally I would be highly embarrassed if I was the driver who got into that situation, without some sort of vehicle or charge point failure.
Again personally, I would try to avoid using motorway charge points as they developed a reputation for being unreliable or being 'ICEd' (blocked by an Internal Combustion Engined vehicle).

Yes, I have been driving a full EV since April 2018, but only done just over 18 thousand miles. This low figure is a combination of being retired and deliberately embracing self isolation.
On the other hand, before going for a full EV I looked at my typical 12 month mileage, it was around 6,000 miles, for several years.
In the initial 12 months of EV ownership I recorded 7,000 miles, purely because longer distance journeys in the UK were now cheaper, so I could buy and collect parts when previously the cost of purchase plus the cost of collection made them too expensive, for me.
'Longer Distance' meaning I would need one or more recharges away from home.

Regards.

[sean f]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Depends on the breakdown company I'd guess, there's definitely small vans with diesel gensets in the back that will come out & charge you up, and I imagine that will be bigger and bigger business in future.

Someone did prove you can charge a Tesla by towing it behind a V8 Mercedes but it takes a lot of oomph to put kilowatts back into a battery that way.

There was a picture going round on Facebook that supposedly showed a car being recharged with a diesel generator towed by a diesel van which got lots of flack about it negating any green credentials, the counter claim was it was a large battery pack being used not a generator, was still a diesel van though. No idea which claim is correct but I would assume some sort of battery pack could be used, just not sure if they are, diesel generator is probable cheaper to buy. I would assume in the future this sort of service would be available from all the breakdown companies once EV's are more the norm.

As far as I am aware you can get fined for running out of fuel on a motorway with out reasonable excuse (such as a massive traffic jam etc) so can't see why this wouldn't also apply to electric vehicles.

[Daan]

2 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

I'm with Britannia Rescue; their policy is to take you to a convenient charge point, although I suspect this might not be a 'supercharger' of some sort, even if that is your preference.

I take something of a strong view on this, there should be some 'penalty' if your management is so bad that you fail to keep your vehicle charged. Personally I would be highly embarrassed if I was the driver who got into that situation, without some sort of vehicle or charge point failure.

Your view of the average driver is rather optimistic:

This tells you how much people manage to run out of fuel, and given that the range of EVs is about half that of fossil fuel powered vehicles, i'd say the only way is up!

More than 800,000 drivers a year run out of fuel | Daily Mail Online

Daan

[David Sparkes]

11 minutes ago, Daan said:

Your view of the average driver is rather optimistic:

This tells you how much people manage to run out of fuel, and given that the range of EVs is about half that of fossil fuel powered vehicles, i'd say the only way is up!

More than 800,000 drivers a year run out of fuel | Daily Mail Online

Daan

I'll always be defeated by a Daily Mail argument! 🙂

[landroversforever]

That's only going to get worse with the fuel costs at the moment. People eeking a tank out even further than before until payday etc.

 

[smallfry]

Great if it happens in the middle of a box junction in Central London !

Is that actually possible in an EV ? Is there any sort of "reserve" ?