Equipping a workshop - first off a compressor and welder

[Jon W]

I am looking at a compressor for my workshop. It’s use will vary and sometime very infrequent use: Mainly uses:

Tyre inflation

Air line for blowing stuff out 

Air tools (although battery rattle gun does most the work) 

Paint gun - I want be able to have the capacity to spray, things like chassis and then eventually body work.

what size do I need for this CFM and also reservoir size?

Have seen Hyundai do silenced and oil free compressors are they worth a look?

welder - i can’t weld at the moment but want to learn, Land Rover bits and then a agricultural muck  trailer I will need to repair in a few years. I am likely to buy second hand but what would be a good model to look at? 
 

Thanks 

[miketomcat]

Minimum size for spraying would be 50ltr and CFM the highest you can get 14 plus for tools really.

As for welder mig, tig or arc? I've had an old murex arc for years because it was cheap and has the least kit/expense on consumerables, but less than 2mm plate is tricky.

Mike

[muzaz]

I found the flux cored mig surprisingly good for what it is. Cheap and no gas bottles to fill and carry around. And the nozzles is small, you can get better access for in situ repairs.

[Mossberg]

Try looking on the mig welding forum about welders. I would recommend a mig as they are easy to learn (if you put the effort in) and can be used on thin to heavier materials depending technique and machine. I couldn't tell you what machine as mine is an older unit so not comparable with modern machines. 

Do you really want to use air tools? From what I hear, people are moving to battery tools as they are more convenient as you don't need to fill your compressor and roll out an airline to do your job. Remember airlines are more of a pain than elecric extensions. Battery tools are so convenient and you can easily grab a tool to do a 5 minute job which will possibly take half an hour when filling the compressor and laying then retrieving air lines (that's if you are working on your drive like I do!).

I have one of the cheap supermarket compressors and that was adequate for chassis treatment - in fact my brother used it to spray his MGB, but he struggled with that and should be applauded for his perseverance. 

 

[Stellaghost]

Same as what Mike said for the compressor

For the welder if your just starting out buy a mig welder, by far the easiest to learn and very good for thin material and thick if it has a decent capacity. I have a Cebora Autostar 180  for 30 years now, welding anything from 0.8mm up to 30mm and it has been fantastic. Mig welders are fairly cheap take a trip to machine mart and have a look at a few. If your looking at thicker material then an arc welder will also work but a lot more skill required to weld vertical and overhead, although you can buy multi-positional rods that help greatly with this

Regards Stephen

[FridgeFreezer]

Compressor - air tools & spraying need BIG CFM, at least 14cfm and as much air tank as you can fit.

These days I think battery tools or even corded electric tools often make air tools redundant if you don't already own the setup. Also I've found the cheap windy gun is weaker than a breaker bar and some strong language, it never gets used. Air die grinder and mini belt sander are useful, blow gun is useful in cleaning parts, tyre inflator is useful, I'm intending to use an air gun to do some rustproofing inside the chassis so that's another "air essential".

The silent compressors are lovely if you don't need the CFM for running tools, otherwise they are either super expensive for one that's big enough, or so far away from a useful air flow as to not be worth it.

Welder - MIG is the easy answer for glueing dirty steel together at all angles laying under a vehicle, a used unit made by adults is preferable to a cheap crappy new one you'll never get spares for. R-Tech and MTA are pretty solid value, Miller, Butters/NBC, Cebora, Esab, Kemppi, Murex, Lincoln are the big boys, there's some BOC & Snap-On ones that are good machines re-branded, Sealey / Clarke / SIP aren't bad for hobby stuff and at least you'll find spares & consumables for them.

You want a euro-torch and you want proper gas, it costs more but makes for nicer welding.

There's some welders that can do MIG + TIG + ARC all in one which is a nice option to have if you think you might want to glue aluminium together one day, but TIG is very much an "on-the-bench" thing unless you're very good and/or an octopus.

[L19MUD]

47 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

These days I think battery tools or even corded electric tools often make air tools redundant if you don't already own the setup. Also I've found the cheap windy gun is weaker than a breaker bar and some strong language, it never gets used. Air die grinder and mini belt sander are useful, blow gun is useful in cleaning parts, tyre inflator is useful, I'm intending to use an air gun to do some rustproofing inside the chassis so that's another "air essential".

Completely agree with this. My compressor is mostly now used for blow gun and tyre machine/inflation plus occasionally a 90 degree air drill. Makita cordless has replaced the Impact gun, die grinder, random orbital sander, wrench

[landroversforever]

When looking at the compressor, the bigger the better IMO. Both in tank and CFM. Big thing to watch out for with the CFM ratings is they'll usually just quote the displacement rather than the actual air output. FAD or Free Air Delivery is what you need to be looking at. Most air tools like a decent windy gun or a die grinder are looking for ~12-14CFM. You'll find a lot of places will quote the displacement CFM rating at what looks enough around that 12-14CFM, but the FAD is only in single figures, so you're always running the compressor tank down then waiting for it to fill. Meanwhile you've got a tool which is often not running at its full power and speed. 

I've got the 'luxury' of 3ph in the workshop so I've got a 4hp 200Lt ABAC compressor thats something like 18/19CFM displacement, and 13/14CFM FAD. That will kick in and out as the tank pressure varies, but crucially the tools don't slow down.

Welder wise I'd suggest what many of the others have done and look at MIGs first and foremost. They're way more forgiving of any impurities (TIG needs to be properly clean, then clean again) and much easier to pick up. Brand wise several mates have Rtech machines and love them, My MIG is an Oxford and then TIG I've got a big Jasic and a smaller Thermal arc. They're all good machines, one small issue with the thermal arc on first use but been good as gold for the 10+ years I've had it.

Gas wise I use Albee who are part of Air Liquide.... they were the best value for me years back when hobbyweld and others were a much lower fill pressure. Other options were also outside of a lunchtime pop-out from work for a refill too. That said these days I don't think I'd go with Albee as the cylinder deposit diminishes over time and the other companies have caught up in regards to bottle pressures/volumes. So I'd suggest checking out what options are available locally, but make sure you work out the price per L of gas (at atmospheric). For example, my bigger Albee cylinders now are 300bar but only half the height of a full cylinder. So they're more inline with a full sized cylinder.

[landroversforever]

2 minutes ago, L19MUD said:

Completely agree with this. My compressor is mostly now used for blow gun and tyre machine/inflation plus occasionally a 90 degree air drill. Makita cordless has replaced the Impact gun, die grinder, random orbital sander, wrench

I agree to a certain extent... but one of my most frequently used fab tools is the 90 Deg air die grinder. Usually with a 3m Roloc pad in it. It's tiny and weighs almost nothing so with a whip hose on it and the main airline hooked over my arm I can use it all day without feeling tired. Mate's Milwaukee 12v version feels much heavier in the hand. 

[Bowie69]

I bought an oil-free twin Hitachi silent (50l, I think) to replace my el-cheapo supermarket/Wolf branded 24L(?) one... it is so nice when it kicks in an all you get is a bit of humming in the background.

I use it more because it is quiet.

Main uses are tyres, blow gun and die grinder which is used a lot. I have sprayed with it, but smaller items (suspension rebuild on Audi CQ20V), but I am sure I could spray with it -I did with the old one at least to satin finish MOD paint and got good results, so doubt I would struggle with this. HVLP guns help in this regard, and with the compressor being oil free means that is one less thing to worry about if trying to do something more with 'pretty' paint.

For a welder, MIG is great, point and squirt and with practice you will get better and better.

If I were starting out, but had some cash to spend I would absolutely look at one of the all-in-ones (MIG, TIG, Arc/MMA), as for a DIYer you'll often very quickly run out of space, and not having two welding carts kicking about is much better. You can get a reasonable one from around £1500 onwards, which given a DIY MIG is the thick end of £600 these days is not that bad in reality.

 

 

 

[landroversforever]

37 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

If I were starting out, but had some cash to spend I would absolutely look at one of the all-in-ones (MIG, TIG, Arc/MMA), as for a DIYer you'll often very quickly run out of space, and not having two welding carts kicking about is much better. You can get a reasonable one from around £1500 onwards, which given a DIY MIG is the thick end of £600 these days is not that bad in reality.

Trouble with the all-in-one types is that unless you're paying silly money you're usually not getting HF start which is a must for TIG IMO.

[Bowie69]

Not the case any more, look at Parweld, for example. 

[landroversforever]

Good to hear it's filtering down! 

Having had a brief look I still think you'd be better off buying two separate machines. 

[Retroanaconda]

I have a big 200 litre compressor but I only ever use it for the blow gun, air riveter and the big windy gun for crankshaft bolts. The small Makita 18v impact does everything else and it’s just not worth getting all the pipes etc. out so in hindsight I probably should have bought a smaller one. However I’d like to try some spraying one day so it’ll come in useful for that I hope.

R-Tech welders get a good write up, but I don’t have any direct experience. Mine is an old Murex one that I got second hand but does the job for what I need. 

[De Ranged]

I'm going to suggest something different 
The compressor, don't waist your money buy a cheap little one.... you will only run it occasionally as for air tools, don't lol unless you have a decent compressor they are pointless compared to electric or battery tools 
I'm saying this from experiance, I've got a 45cfm compressor that just needs a small repair to get going.... it has been like that for 6yrs lol I work off a cheap single phase chinese compressor I only use it occasionally so don't leave it plugged in as for air tools the only one that i can't get a better version of corded or battery is the air chisel and the little compressor runs it happily, it will do an agricultural paint job but that is all I'm capable of given I don't have a spray booth/oven or expensive guns 

Your welder, since your a beginner don't get picky on brands or models just look for a cheap single phase less than 10yr old mig under 200 amp that takes a 15kg roll of wire don't be fooled into getting the smaller welders that use 5kg rolls (price per kg doubles or trebles for these smaller rolls), go and get a medium sized swop bottle of Argon/CO2 (second hand swop bottles sell for almost the retail price and you don't have to worry about bottle tests or rental costs)
The reason I say mig is its is the easiest to learn, the reason for the gas is this will give you a nicer weld in thinner gauge steel also it will give you the clearest view of the weld pool (gasless or flux core creates alot of smoke and makes watching the weld pool very hard)
The 10yr age thing is so you are on the modern inverter welders that are alot easier to tune.... I've used some truely cheap welders (chinese shop branded ones) and found them surprisingly good.... not commercial level but more than capable of joining a couple of bits of steel

One more tip Youtube is good to learn from but ignore the stupid comments about a tuned mig weld sounding like bacon frying lol it doesn't 

Edit I didn't explain the reason for the medium size upgrade on the gas bottle, you pay a cyclinder filling fee every time you swop your bottle, this fee is the same no mater the size going up in size you get roughly 3x the gas for the next size up bottle so long term your better off with a bigger bottle 

Edited November 3, 2023 by De Ranged

[landroversforever]

7 minutes ago, De Ranged said:

Edit I didn't explain the reason for the medium size upgrade on the gas bottle, you pay a cyclinder filling fee every time you swop your bottle, this fee is the same no mater the size going up in size you get roughly 3x the gas for the next size up bottle so long term your better off with a bigger bottle 

Noting that Jon is UK based... We don't really have anything set up like that here.

[De Ranged]

Just now, landroversforever said:

Noting that Jon is UK based... We don't really have anything set up like that here.

Thats a bugger, Swop bottles are brilliant for home engineers here... I did the math Swop vs BOC rentals, gas and filling costs and unless I was using more than a bottle a month I was better off in just over a yrs time to own a swop bottle 
The high cost of the filling fee might be due to NZ being a island in the middle of no where lol 

[Bowie69]

You can do swap bottles (e.g. SGS round here), but you pay for the volume of gas in it, sure the larger ones are probably slightly better value, but there's not a massive jump.

[Peaklander]

4 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

The small Makita 18v impact does everything else

Would you share the model number please?

[FridgeFreezer]

Oh I should also say - buy a GOOD auto-darkening welding helmet, Parweld do some decent value ones, 3M Speedglas or ESAB are the kings, do NOT entrust your eyeballs to cheap knock-offs, arc eye is NO joke and a good auto helmet makes life 100x easier when laying under a truck trying to hold stuff, see what you're doing, and aim a welding torch.

While de ranged's advice about newer welders is not necessarily wrong, I'd counter that older "dumb" welders have less to go wrong & are more fixable (beware potted circuit boards!), and good ones (as in, ones that were pro-grade when new) should give excellent welds. My NBC is knocking 50 years or more (judge by the fashion in the advert!), it's all simple bits and I recently did an almost full refurb of it for not very much money using industrial off-the-shelf bits.

[landroversforever]

9 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Oh I should also say - buy a GOOD auto-darkening welding helmet, Parweld do some decent value ones, 3M Speedglas or ESAB are the kings, do NOT entrust your eyeballs to cheap knock-offs, arc eye is NO joke and a good auto helmet makes life 100x easier when laying under a truck trying to hold stuff, see what you're doing, and aim a welding torch.

Don't forget Optrel either.... who if memory serves me correctly invented the auto darkening welding mask.

[Mossberg]

Whilst I agree that a good welding helmet is required, I must say my lidl true colour one works for me. The critiscm I have for it is not the screen but the headband, which I find too flexible- when on your side under a land rover trying to contort into position, that sagging can be annoying. 

However, the large screen compensates most of the time as you don't necessarily have to look through the centre of the screen. Also, with an inspection lamp you have good vision before striking the ark.

[De Ranged]

10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

While de ranged's advice about newer welders is not necessarily wrong, I'd counter that older "dumb" welders have less to go wrong & are more fixable

Fair point on parts prices, my old 400 amp hobart (at a guess 400kg of copper windings lol) you fix it with parts from Jaycar or Dicksmith.... catch is its a pig to tune, but when you do 20mm plate butt welds in full spray weld.... my fancy new esab 350 at work can't do that..... my point on the newer welders is the inverter tech has a wider tolerance for the settings and in some cases like the entry level Lincolns, Millers and some of the chinese rebrands I've seen them setup with a dial for the thickness of the steel lol no remembering voltage and wire feed settings or marking the dials 

As for masks as a commercial welder the fit and harness are more important than the qaulity (one of the best welders in the shop uses a $20 chinese auto dark and he hasn't gone blind lol I think the days of the dodgy auto trip lenses are gone) the more money you spend generally the clearer the view 
For me I want to be able to get a 3m resperator on under the helmet for when its fuming.... I don't want to be able to breath on the glass, this fogs up the inside when its cold or humid (removing the protective plastic cover from the inside of the helmet helps) and you want a simple robust harness that will hold the weight of the mask up without creeping down yet if I nod my head it falls... the last thing you want to consider is the protection for the front clear plastic screen, does it have ridges around the screen so when you take it off it can't "roll over" on your bench and scratch the clear screen protector 
the two masks I use both are around $400 NZD new, the ExcelArc my main mask, a chinese made shop brand and a Miller elite, the harness is carp it doesn't hold it up, or it locks it off lol but it has Xmode that triggers the mask on electrical impulse of the weld so it "trips" even if I'm not looking straight at the weld and the screen is very clear as good as the 3m ones.... one day I'll pull the harness out and replace it with a simple face sheild one 
 

[simonr]

I'm going to buck the trend on the compressor - and suggest you get one of the small Hydrovane ones.

I have one of these: https://www.directair.co.uk/air-compressors/hv02/

Mine came from www.airindustries.co.uk who did me a very good deal on a reconditioned one, that looked brand new.

While it's only 8 cfm with a 50l tank, it keeps up much better than my previous 15cfm piston compressor with a 100l tank.

I think one of the issues with piston compressors, unless you have a huge tank, is that the air pressure pulsates with each piston stroke.  This is noticeable while spraying - and can be quite bad with a Plasma Cutter.  The flow out of the Hydrovane is continuous - and seems able to deliver more (useable) air than it ought to.

My plasma says it needs 10cfm - but the compressor only runs with a 50% duty cycle.

The biggest advantage (if you have neighbours) is it's very quiet!  They're also low maintenance.

I use a PCL dropout air filter https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/162888498284  While these seem expensive - they are VERY good!  Perfect for spraying or Plasma.

[Stellaghost]

12 hours ago, Mossberg said:

Whilst I agree that a good welding helmet is required, I must say my lidl true colour one works for me. The critiscm I have for it is not the screen but the headband, which I find too flexible- when on your side under a land rover trying to contort into position, that sagging can be annoying. 

However, the large screen compensates most of the time as you don't necessarily have to look through the centre of the screen. Also, with an inspection lamp you have good vision before striking the ark.

I'm pleased your Lidl screen worked fine, unfortunately mine did not last two minutes, however my good lady saved the day at the time when she bought me an Esab Sentinel, fantastic helmet, chalk and cheese compared to the Lidl one I had

Now, I have also got a 3m Speed glass one with air fed hood, which I have yet to try in anger

Regards Stephen