Stellaghost Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Whilst at the classic car show today I got talking to a guy about the car he built based on a mk1 Ford escort, during the conversation I asked him about his battery that was laid on its side and looking very compact He called it an aircraft battery and was using it because it can be fitted in any position, compact but quite powerful I know we have a couple of aircraft guys on here, what's your thoughts, are they compact and powerful?? Regards Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Hawker Odyssey are pretty available, not cheap and as far as I'm aware pretty good quality as batteries go - I think any AGM battery is mountable on its side though. I had a few of them that came out of defunct industrial UPS's, used them for years and years - one of them was in the Shire trailer for running the CB and it only died a few years ago, the date stamp on it was 1994. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 My understanding was any gel battery can be mounted in any position. I’ve used them in motorbikes and mounted them at odd orientations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 If you really want small and light and mount anywhere, there are automotive lithium batteries available now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaghost Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 2 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: If you really want small and light and mount anywhere, there are automotive lithium batteries available now... Thanks was not aware of that Regards Stephen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Lithium Ion !00A: £239 and 13.8 kg: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126507856696?itmmeta=01HZDAN5ETD7PVW7WG7P2MQNDN&hash=item1d7474b338:g:LGsAAOSwlEJmWa8s&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8FntuRg6uWTTixELvAwgUYR%2FYtVTLvSVdA0a5SSIYV%2BDvMpyctEPH%2BcTmNDPBO7LsIgntOCe572JjgYmXxnnSia%2B9pGov86OrmfrmD98P96R8RampQg8by5A08TrEMuaDlzKFiQtFmTlZKsukPxNuC9lc2ubFkwpGDWx483tfY4aA6LvRLcAkxCmGN%2BuiqmTeqCA0Js3pAkDjnejA2gZc1EveQVvjJIU%2BOY%2Fakko7%2FrU2mfc44I9Jd2UvEOqyq%2FWIfs62SdP8HV8Edbjo9Ew1vyp63CedA4D6Xg0Zcea%2BJ5KS6Z0SpAJO6p66poqBsmOHQ%3D%3D|tkp%3ABFBMwtfUqvtj Conventional 100A battery £83 and 22.7kg: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/252078006941?epid=15034764818&itmmeta=01HZDASF06NVHGSFDDSC8NV3R9&hash=item3ab105229d:g:vUkAAOSw79ZknXiz&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAAwGnqy%2FXkUWy3QHUVaazF1UYHcH9J2TTEgivXhoCh5QD5HsUxuiM%2BlsyJnhr9mr6xg2ep%2F33ontDHFwPzV2qch%2BbQOiFnwhRj%2BlSRK4ojPoQmcDXisSrZzj1Y1YbqkvnY%2FLNr0fp7HaHRxHYkGyMOjXyNv3sKqMwNfcOm1qad8LZ%2F%2B2r3PBK8EBi5Z1XA8vn22fWniXCQza4sj59PNIamm4Y%2FSSjFv8WvOcRMyg9uTyjyfDGW8Q1ZrFwgTLYSRwUaFw%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6Lw5ar7Yw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 We Start the Griffons on WR963 from a Pair of yellow top Optima's. 28 volts turning over a 36.7 litre V12. There mounted on an external trolly though, not the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 We use optima's at work, they can be hung upside down if you wish. I still have one of the battery's fridge mentioned in the 110. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 Odysseys are brilliant batteries. The one in a friend's kitcar is hilariously small Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 9 hours ago, Daan said: Lithium Ion !00A: £239 and 13.8 kg: That's actually not nearly as bad as I thought, I thought the lithium stuff was still in the 1k range for a decent size. Although fitting a cheapo Chinese lithium battery may not be the best idea without putting it in a fireproof bag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 Yep, they have come down a lot, almost makes them make sense for LGT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 Most aircraft use 28v for the DC electrics, with batteries providing 24v. If you have the car set up to run 24v, there are a lot of advantages. I’d still be wary of lithium ion batteries, though, for all the usual reasons - Boeing did that in the 787 and it didn’t go well. How it never picked up the name “Phoenix” or “Firebird” instead of that wet, ugly “Dreamliner” moniker I don’t know. The fix, after so many battery fires, was to encase the battery in a stainless steel box. No, I’m not even joking. If being able to reorient the battery or have it tolerate extreme body angles is important, I’ll still go down the AGM route until solid state batteries are more than a lab experiment or pipe dream. Don’t be fooled into thinking aviation quality means higher quality (well, physically higher, but you know what I mean…😉). The prices are vastly inflated but manufacturing quality is nothing special - the costs go into the licencing and bureaucracy involved in parts supply, not their manufacture, and there are a lot of fake parts circulating the market too (as became very public with the recent exposer of AOG parts and their fake CFM56 engine parts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 3 hours ago, elbekko said: That's actually not nearly as bad as I thought, I thought the lithium stuff was still in the 1k range for a decent size. Although fitting a cheapo Chinese lithium battery may not be the best idea without putting it in a fireproof bag That's the big problem - I suspect a lot of the expensive ones are re-badged Chinese ones too. That and the fact that lithium is sensitive to how it's charged, so batteries end up with built-in charge controllers (hopefully), or worst case they don't and they just hope the battery survives the abuse at the hands of an alternator designed for lead-acid... TBH unless I was racing I would probably not bother with the weirder stuff like lithium, the weight makes little difference in a Land Rover and the complications and cost don't seem worth it compared to a dirt simple and robust technology you can buy anywhere. A lot of the overlander crowd seem to be buying lithium, ostensibly for weight but I suspect more because they'd rather show off a £2000 battery setup than admit they could do the same for £200 using a caravan battery and a few bits from eBay... personally you couldn't pay me enough to sleep in a metal box with a Chinese lithium battery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 18 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said: A lot of the overlander crowd seem to be buying lithium, ostensibly for weight but I suspect more because they'd rather show off a £2000 battery setup than admit they could do the same for £200 using a caravan battery and a few bits from eBay... personally you couldn't pay me enough to sleep in a metal box with a Chinese lithium battery. weight? Most of the 'overlanding' crowd clearly are not worried about weight when you see all the mountain of accessories they take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FridgeFreezer Posted June 3 Popular Post Share Posted June 3 42 minutes ago, landroversforever said: weight? Most of the 'overlanding' crowd clearly are not worried about weight when you see all the mountain of accessories they take. Ah but they'll stir their latte with an aerospace grade tactical titanum extreme outdoors spoon to save 3 grams of weight in their 4 ton rolling hotel 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 It’s all about bragging rights and showing wealth, though there is an argument for LiFePo leisure batteries in their energy density and flat output voltage compared to lead acid, perhaps more to do with energy vs volume rather than weight. Still, to me, the risks aren’t worth it - the gasses you get from bad Li batteries are nasty, including hydrogen cyanide and hydrogen sulphides. You can’t get much more toxic. And any faulting AGM or lead acid battery can be dealt with by a disconnect switch and a fire extinguisher - a Lithium battery failing will almost certainly result in the loss of your vehicle and all your camping gear, food, water and comms, and quite likely followed by your life if in a remote or harsh environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 The feedback I get from the lightweight crowd is to avoid the lithium batteries. They're good for bragging rights in the pub, but don't seem to be as reliable or easy to use (charging) as a good old fashioned lead/acid battery. Especially in cars not driven often. Acceptable for a race or track car where lb is more important than £, but it can get annoying and expensive on a weekend toy. There was a similar article in a magazine aimed at automotive professionals: it claimed a lot of EVs are actually using a 12V lead/acid battery for back up and safety critical systems, mainly because of reliability and ease of use. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 1 hour ago, landroversforever said: weight? Most of the 'overlanding' crowd clearly are not worried about weight when you see all the mountain of accessories they take. By reducing battery weight, it allows them to carry even more stuff. How had you not worked that out yet? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 55 minutes ago, Escape said: There was a similar article in a magazine aimed at automotive professionals: it claimed a lot of EVs are actually using a 12V lead/acid battery for back up and safety critical systems, mainly because of reliability and ease of use. This is normal, as it allows the rest of the car to turn on and tell you the state of the car when the main battery is flat or inoperable. Also allows use of normal 12V car electronics for everything except the propulsion system so everything still works (unless that battery also goes flat....) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 3 hours ago, Snagger said: The prices are vastly inflated but manufacturing quality is nothing special - the costs go into the licencing and bureaucracy involved in parts supply, not their manufacture Not necessarily true. I have worked in aerospace manufacture / supply and there are many additional 'operations', just, for example, to provide the necessary parts traceability. Every part used in an assembly, right down to a screw, is traceable. The batch number for that screw from the previous manufacturing process (or supplier) is recorded on the build sheet. That sub assembly part number build reference is then carried forward to the next. The result is that a huge cross reference is built-up, just for that one part of compliance. It goes on and on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 52 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: By reducing battery weight, it allows them to carry even more stuff. You're not wrong - one recent discussion I saw was someone trying to work out how much battery they'd need to run their 2kW+ air conditioning unit in their camper overnight 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 2 hours ago, Peaklander said: Not necessarily true. I have worked in aerospace manufacture / supply and there are many additional 'operations', just, for example, to provide the necessary parts traceability. Every part used in an assembly, right down to a screw, is traceable. The batch number for that screw from the previous manufacturing process (or supplier) is recorded on the build sheet. That sub assembly part number build reference is then carried forward to the next. The result is that a huge cross reference is built-up, just for that one part of compliance. It goes on and on... t that is exactly what I meant about the cost being involved in the bureaucracy (mostly well warranted) rather than the direct manufacturing cost. It should be a good guarantee of quality, but sadly it isn’t as robust as expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 "Aircraft quality" just means 5 to 10 times the price........ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 On 6/3/2024 at 9:59 AM, FridgeFreezer said: You're not wrong - one recent discussion I saw was someone trying to work out how much battery they'd need to run their 2kW+ air conditioning unit in their camper overnight Well, my 48V off grid inverter battery weighs over half a ton and that isn't going to push out 2kw all night, so I hope they've planned building the camper around a lorry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnoK Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 On 6/2/2024 at 9:33 PM, Stellaghost said: Whilst at the classic car show today I got talking to a guy about the car he built based on a mk1 Ford escort, during the conversation I asked him about his battery that was laid on its side and looking very compact He called it an aircraft battery and was using it because it can be fitted in any position, compact but quite powerful I know we have a couple of aircraft guys on here, what's your thoughts, are they compact and powerful?? Regards Stephen Aircraft batteries are not compact, they tend towards robust and beefy to meet the needs of aircraft. They are also usually Ni-Cad or Lead Acid, Lithium are the territory of Boeing 787 and the new big metal or the small bug smashers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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