Gresh

[92.9]

I think Mr Gresham has suffered enough, but of course that won't matter to those who might want to capitalize on all this. I can't help thinking that there is a hidden agenda, such is the way that this tragic accident has been treated by the authorities and media.

I'm sure it's no coincidence that the vehicle modifying hobby in the UK is under extremely close scrutiny at the moment, both at domestic and EU level. This tragic accident would be tantamount to a gift from God for those who are intent on wiping out the car modifying hobby in the UK.

:-(

[bishbosh]

I have resisted posting on this thread up until now, but I feel I have to say something as it appear that the thread is disappearing off on a "the world is out to get us 4x4 drivers" direction.

I only have one comment to make, and that is after doing the difficult thing and putting the human aspect of this case to one side:

The brake callipers on the front axle were different sizes! If that is not gross negligence I do not know what is. Let's try and keep a bit of perspective!

[freeagent]

I think that it was right to prosecute in this case.

4 childeren lost their lives and as we live in a civilised society I think its correct that this incident was investigated properly.

Do you think we'd all be feeling the same if the driver was a youth worker, driving a vehicle registered to, and maintained on a budget by a charity, and 4 other peoples kids had died?

I'm saddened and disapointed by the media coverage of it, but it doesn't suprise me, and its why I don't ever read newspapers and have a complete hatred of the BBC...

I hope he doesn't get a long prison sentance, as I agree with everyone else that he, and his remaining kids have suffered enough.

I do think this sends out a warning to us all.... which as I've said on another post we all have a responsibility for the safety and roadworthyness of our own vehicles... and that ownership of a Haynes manual doesn't make you a mechanic.

God bless the Gresham family, I hope you can now move on with your lives and start to learn to live with what happened.

[Turbocharger]

Bish is right, but did it contribute? Without being too specific to the case, I'm conscious that pattern parts could use a different casting but same-size pistons and pads, so the brake effort would be the same.

We don't know enough about the vehicle, and I'm not sure if the jury did either - especially since the defence didn't present any evidence.

[Anderzander]

We don't know enough about the vehicle, and I'm not sure if the jury did either - especially since the defence didn't present any evidence.

I agree that we don't know anything about the vehicle.

I think we have to respect the police investigators though too - they are very experienced and would be able to make a good judgement over the condition of the vehicle. They said they found 30 issues that they deemed serious. I'm sure they are very experienced at differentiating what the pre accident condition was too.

There was also an independent vehicle expert from Land Rover who assessed the vehicle.

This is the defence statements.

It seems a strong argument to me - but non of us have had the full evidence laid out to us. Only the jury has had that - and only they can make judgement.

Any of us making a judgement either way can only be ill informed.

[Guest diesel_jim]

I agree that we don't know anything about the vehicle.

I think we have to respect the police investigators though too - they are very experienced and would be able to make a good judgement over the condition of the vehicle. They said they found 30 issues that they deemed serious. I'm sure they are very experienced at differentiating what the pre accident condition was too.

very experienced at twisting things to feed the media/politicians

[DefcoL]

I have resisted posting on this thread up until now, but I feel I have to say something as it appear that the thread is disappearing off on a "the world is out to get us 4x4 drivers" direction.

I only have one comment to make, and that is after doing the difficult thing and putting the human aspect of this case to one side:

The brake callipers on the front axle were different sizes! If that is not gross negligence I do not know what is. Let's try and keep a bit of perspective!

thanks bish

This of all treads needs balance, I like freeagent think it was in the public interest for this case to go forward and it should and needs to serve a massive wake up call to all who do their own upgrade/maintenance.

although I am a time served mechanic (not fitter) on both light and heavy goods vehicles and my apprenticeship had detailed and ongoing training on Land rovers, But due to being out of the trade for such a long time I do not think it appropriate to claim the title of Mechanic so I am especially carefully and still get my work checked. As this case shows thing can go horribly wrong when confronted by other road users.

But as turbo says

We don't know enough about the vehicle, and I'm not sure if the jury did either

Having been through a ten year long court battle I have personally experienced how easy (and often) courts are misinformed by so called public offices when supposedly acting in the child's best interest. it seams to me that turbo's words are particularly important to heed.

But at the end of the day it seems absolutely over the top for the courts to compound the tragic loss that has occurred for this devastated family.

if they truly have the interest of the children at heart then they must deeply consider the surviving family and what is in their best interest.........!!!!!!!!!

[J@mes]

I have no comment to make on the story, but it does shock me that the forum moderators are CENSORING the opinions of people who do not follow the grain.

The main "finger pointing/ witch hunting" as it is being called has been done, by the courts. So why is it an issue that people who also modify and enjoy their landys want to have their say when they are on the opposite side of the fence?

Had the accident been different, where this man (which I understand some of you know on a personal level) had been driving a dangerous vehicle (as proved by the courts, and whatever you may think - they do have the last say) had survived but wiped out someone else's family, would the shoe be on the other foot?

[BogMonster]

I think we have to respect the police investigators though too - they are very experienced and would be able to make a good judgement over the condition of the vehicle.

I wouldn't assume that is the case any more than I would assume that all firearms officers are a good shot. Some of the former specialist vehicle examiners in the force here were trained by UK police to the UK qualified standard and I can tell you that in some cases they didn't know their posterior from their elbow on some matters, but nevertheless they presumably passed the exams!

I agree with the observation that whether the calipers were different sizes and whether they affected the braking adversely are two different things. They clearly shouldn't have been, but whether they contributed to the accident MAY have been a different thing entirely.

J@mes I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about "censorship", the forum moderators are keen to ensure it does not degenerate into a slanging match especially given the fact that Gresh is known to a great many forum members. That is all.

[J@mes]

J@mes I think you have got the wrong end of the stick about "censorship", the forum moderators are keen to ensure it does not degenerate into a slanging match especially given the fact that Gresh is known to a great many forum members. That is all.

Then it should be moderated as such, rather than being treated like I would by my mum when I was five. You know, "If you dont have anything nice to say, don't say anything"

[nicks90]

stupid isp jsut timed out my post....

grr

anyway, thoughts go out to the remaining familly - but not gresh himself.

he was driving a ringer.

It was badly maintained with shockingly basic faults like front brake callipers, incorrectly fitted radius arms, bad steering, loose drivers seat etc etc etc

he has even been spouting off on other forums about his new discovery being heavily modified and having to hide it from the police who want to impound and inspect it for being a ringer / roadworthy.

My sense of compassion for this man is waning i'm sorry to say.

if this was a local taxi cab minibus and the same had happened - we would all be holloring for the barsteward to be bloody hung drawn and quartered....

perspective please.

[Happyoldgit]

Then it should be moderated as such, rather than being treated like I would by my mum when I was five. You know, "If you dont have anything nice to say, don't say anything"

If you perceive you have a grievance then please contact one of the forum mods or admins using the PM facility as this will prevent threads being sidetracked.

[FridgeFreezer]

I know Gresh is well known in the LR community and I've no doubt he is a lovely chap but he has been found guilty in a court of law. Judges and juries do not take that kind of thing lightly, especially in such tragic circumstances. I'm sure the impact on the family has been a source of much deliberation.

Arguing his case / starting conspiracy theories from a position of almost total ignorance on an internet forum is pointless, even if you don't agree with it it's done now. Let's all learn the awful lessons this case has highlighted and move on.

[DefcoL]

he was driving a ringer.

It was badly maintained with shockingly basic faults like front brake callipers, incorrectly fitted radius arms, bad steering, loose drivers seat etc etc

he has even been spouting off on other forums about his new discovery being heavily modified and having to hide it from the police who want to impound and inspect it for being a ringer / roadworthy.

If the above is true then it would be totally wrong to modify this thread to the point of stifling the truth from coming out, We need facts not protection.

why? because it is in everyone interest that safety comes first.

[West4x4]

He drove onto the grass at 30mph by his own admission that its self is dangerous if there was not room to pass he should have stopped. Or passed at a sensible speed

[Mark90]

Another one here agreeing with Bish.

If things had been different and Gresh's children had died as the result of the transit van being driven at speed and 'incompotently' maintained and 'dangerously' modified the LR forums would be full of calls for a lynching.

[freeagent]

Agreed mark.

Do you think we'd all be feeling the same if the driver was a youth worker, driving a vehicle registered to, and maintained on a budget by a charity, and 4 other peoples kids had died?

We all have the responsibility for the safety and roadworthyness of our own vehicles... and that ownership of a Haynes manual doesn't make you a mechanic.

[Lara]

Perhaps something was needed to be done!

Of course there should have been a court hearing / case, 4 people were killed here!

But I feel that Mr Gresham and the public were severely let down by the pitiful defence argument!

We have learnt nothing here, the prosecutions argument that was reported was so severely flawed, and due to a total lack of defence we never found answers to questions that should have been asked. Their argument may well have been good, but they should deffinately have been challenged by a competant lawyer!!

Court room and public messages should have been separated in my opinion!

Can't help feeling that Mr Gresham is being made a public example of here! and that is NOT Justice!!!!

The coroners court would have been a much better place to make a strong point regarding the responsibilities of home mechanics.

Very sad day for everyone!

Lara.

[nicks90]

a few poeple on here have mentioned alot about a public example being made of gresh, pitiful defence etc.

But we dont know WHY he chose not to make a defence. We are not privy to the inner chats between himself and the defence team.

who knows what questions he would have been asked during cross examination by the prosecution and what those answers may have been,

They may have asked who did his mot and details surrounding it, details about his chassis swap (especially as he made quite a few posts on LRO about replacement chassis after he bent his old one, never mentioned using a 2nd hand chassis in those posts), about the welding on the rear axle and his certification to weld critical safety parts, brakes replacement etc etc etc

defending himself could have caused alot more problems for him and made him look a complete chancer above what he appears at the moment.

These are all things that needed to be taken into consideration when making a defence and often saying nothing and giving the prosecution no opportunity to further villify is the better bet.

we will never know.

justice HAS been done, evidence was given by experts in the field - those findings are without question. The jury have no vested interest in finding someone guilty to help a faceless civil servant push his agenda through. They found him guilty on the evidence presented (by BOTH sides) and its now up to the judge to determine his punishment above and beyond what he is suffering at the moment as a father who caused the deaths of his 4 kids.

I hold nothing directly against gresh - and i hope he gets a fair sentence and not something extraordinary as a 'public example' to others.

[white90]

The car was not a ringer, it had a chassis replacement as was seen on many forums when it was done after the first original chassis was bent/damaged.

without the full facts no one can judge anyone.

but if it makes people feel better to have someone to blame then now there he is.

I for one hope that nothing bad occurs to Nigel after being found guilty.

I'm not defending his actions but the cold hard fact remains that he will suffer forever more as will the rest of the family.

[DefcoL]

but the cold hard fact remains that he will suffer forever more as will the rest of the family.

for sure they need support.....

Not yet mentioned but a contributory factor must be , well what appears to be from this quote "before swerving off the road and tumbling down the bank into the 15ft-deep river." no safety barrier, at a part of the road where another driver could easily

meet the same fate were they to have a blow out, I hope the local authority looks into that .

[will_warne]

Nick (and others), yes he has been found guilty but, on the face of it, there was little in the way of a defence and a very vocal prosecution. Even given the criminal burden of proof (beyond reasonable doubt) it is still very possible for an innocent person to found guilty (and vice versa). I will be interested to see the case report when it comes out but if the defence did not answer the allegations about the front brake caliper and the chassis brackets it would have been hard for the jury to ignore the point the prosecution made.

If there has been an incorrect verdict then I can't imagine anything worse and, if the verdict was correct, Gresh has to live with the fact that he cased the death of four of his children which is a terrible thing for anyone to live with no matter how negligent they where!

[cipx2]

Is this verdict final? No appeal possible?

[Sean]

Is this verdict final? No appeal possible?

on what grounds do you think he would be able to appeal on ? - if there had been evidence to support his defence would it not have been presented when given the opportunity to do so ?

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I was originally concerned as a Mod here on LR4x4 to even have a "Gresh" Thread, ....but we have....

My concerns were around his and his families suffering,

whatever the causes, whatever the issues, whoever is "To Blame"

(And we are as a country really getting the land of "Hell Yeahs" attitude towards blame culture)

lets not any of us forget he and his wife and family have lost 4 of their children whilst under their own care and eyes.

And then, if thats not bad enough he is taken to court, we can agin argue and debate the rights and wrongs of it

but christ he has already suffered more than many here can ever have in their nightmares, let alone "Real Life" or is that real death ?

Lastly do think before you post up negative, unpleasant or argument starting posts around all this,

not just for the sake of LR4x4 and the members all getting heated up, but this is a public worldwide forum,

so yes the press may be trawling for a lookie, but one day, some day in the future Gresh or others in his

family may read this, if you were in his boots, and had what he has had happen to him (rights wrongs and blame aside)

is what you are adding here of any real value. Consider maybe how they are going to be on Christmas Day this year

and what you'll be doing - swap would you ? - and would you still be ghappy with a post on here from yourself and its contents ?

Sometimes the best viewpoint is not publicy aired and we are all entitled to ours views,

none of us want to have to try to edit this post, we would prefer that what people type they

consider the wider implications of it, I for one whilst having no kids can't start to imagine how

the Gresh family is or will be in the future, and that to be honest is a huge bonus for me.

This post is running as we trust 99% of members to think around the above thoughts comments

and the notice at the start of the thread, please please

bear all this in mind, tragic doesn't even come close to describing this horrendous situation IMHO

Nige