Haggling

[Anderzander]

I'm carp at buying cars - I nearly always get all over enthusiastic and buy the first one I look at.

I'm going to look at a 90 tomorrow - looks a good car, high mileage but well looked after, and a fair price ... But it's with a dealer so I'm sure I'm not supposed to just go in grinning like an idiot and pay them.

Can anyone educate me ?

[reb78]

I haven't mastered it either. I hate buying cars, especially from dealers.

[Scotts90]

If it's a dealer...start at least £500 down from asking price....nothing to lose! If the price isn't flexible then go for tax, fresh MOT, tank of fuel, full service, if the tyres are borderline then factor replacements or money off. It's only if it ticks every box and there's no niggly bits that can be bartered over that you expect to pay full whack.

It's hard not to let the heart rule the wallet....as is so easy if you have set your mind on buying that particular 90...the key is not to let the dealer know you REALLY want it!

If you're travelling a great distance to see the vehicle most vendors won't expect you to walk away, but don't be afraid to do so, even going away for a coffee to let them mull over an offer works wonders. It's always handy to have a "back up" vehicle to look at and tell the dealer this, you may not be the least interested in another car but if they expect you may buy another one close by then it can help.

Bought a few cars in my driving history...the count is at 62 at the moment..so have haggled a few times!

[CwazyWabbit]

........

Bought a few cars in my driving history...the count is at 62 at the moment..so have haggled a few times!

I won't ask what happened to them all Seriously though how come so many?

[Scotts90]

Eh over 25yrs of driving its not too bad! I had/have a bad habit of buying cars, spending time and effort to get them up to my spec (fussy barsteward ) then after getting them done I get bored and sell it. My other guilty pleasure is Vauxhall (so shoot me) had a few show winners/best kept and the odd feature so these cars all sold themselves. It's far too easy when someone approaches you to buy your car rather than advertising and selling. My last 8 vauxhalls are still owned by friends/enthusiasts. There were times when I would buy a car, send the v5 away and the car would be sold to a mate by the time I got it back from DVLA.

As my main cars got more expensive ie new Discoverys etc then they would be kept at least a year before changing...the longest I have owned a car was 2 yrs...my D3 and D4 both made it that long. However my hobby/show cars were changed at will!

I think it may be genetic...my Dad was a mechanic and he changed cars almost weekly.

[Scotts90]

Oh, and my wife says she'll kill me if I sell my 90 after it's finished...

[AndrewHorsfield]

Try and get an idea how long he has had it for sale. It will give you an idea how keen he is to move it on.

Also, before you go get a mental list of things you might find wrong, then go looking for them. It will help you to produce a list of reasons to reduce the price. Works best if they are not used to Land Rovers i.e. we all no about rust on Disco rear door hinges or surface rust on rear cross members.

[Tom1809]

Where do I start.

Most dealers have a bottom line figure they will go too and majority can be knocked down with a cash buy. When I've gone to buy vehicles and yes at 22 I've already had my fair share I always made sure I had cash, A substantial deposit or the full amount doesn't matter. Test drive the vehicle and make sure you go for a long enough drive to be able to get up to speed. Check things like the tracking, and weird noises. Go through all the gears. Including reverse ( I made that mistake). If there are plastic seat protectors on there remove them and check, make sure everything works. Keep a mental note of all the little issues. Ask to see the paperwork and check it properly. Biggest thing is don't take the dealers word that it's been hpi checked. It's cheaper enough to do one for yourself and you can print and take it with you to make sure it's the same. Say it's up for £10000. I would go in with offer of £7500. It give plenty of room to negotiate. When it comes to making a deal stick to your number and be prepared to walk away. There is also certain body language that works such as looking them in the eyes and extending your hand out to shake on the deal. Out of all the deals I've done buying vehicles I've never paid full asking price but the funny thing is, I never sold any of the 8 and the landy has been the longest I've owned.

[missingsid]

Does cash offer still work? Surely in this day and age stealers get more by a finance deal don't they get a commission from the loan shark?

Marc

[Tom1809]

Depends on the dealer, if it's a large company they will deal with say black horse finance or who ever. I looked into financing options for my customers on heating systems but you have to have a minimum of 250.000 turn over and there are conditions that go with it, some dealers might go to the hassle of it others don't. I tend to find the little one man band dealers and buy from them, I had a issue with a big dealers and my girlfriends mini, mismatched tyres,poor paint repair trying to back track on the agreement.

[reb78]

When I've gone in with cash, they've turned their nose up as they are often more in tested in finance.

I've also tried the low offer thing I.e. Going in at £7500 when it's up at £10000 - they often don't even take you seriously as they think you are taking the pee. These days, I try to work out how fair the price is and if it's reasonable I'll go look at the car and try and get some tax chucked in or a few hundred quid off. Even that's hard work. To be honest, the last car I bought was the disco and that was from an enthusiast at a fair price - much more pleasant transaction than messing around with grotty car salesmen. I've found some of the one man band guys the worst ever, they buy cheap junk at auction and try to flog on at a high price having done nothing to rectify the faults. Big dealers are awful too! Maybe I've only looked in the wrong places!!!

[AMB]

Last time that I bought from a garage we were in a similar situation - cash in hand and no car to trade. I started by asking whether they were open to offers, to which the answer was "try me". I responded that, I didn't have a car to trade, but if I had traded my old car they'd have made a £1000 loss on the deal, so let's start there. He counter offered (probably as a matter of principle). Having established the principle of a discount, I then challenged the asking price on the basis of price guides and other dealers. Having got the asking price down, I went back asking for a full service (to the garages advantage to reduce probability of warranty claims), rectification of a couple of minor faults, inaccuracies in the advert, discount on accessories etc. I think that we were both happy at the end of the negotiation, but the salesman was not quite as happy as he otherwise would have been.

I was prepared to say sorry, we're too far away, shake hands and walk out if necessary. Many years ago I found that to be very effective - the salesman called me back near the end of the month and offered me a better deal. Unfortunately, with the Defender market, dealers have the upper hand with something in good condition.

[Scotts90]

I agree, the cash thing doesn't hold as much power as it used to, especially with a dealer. It is far easier dealing with an enthusiast or a "decent" bloke. Going in too low suggests you're not serious or don't have the cash. Everyone these days can research the price of similar vehicles and dealers are the same, if they have taken the car in part exchange they may have some more wiggle room on the price but this all depends if they had to massage the trade in price to secure their other sale. Most car salesmen in dealers have no interest in what they are selling but are merely there to complete the transaction. I have bought a few new cars where the salesman had little to no knowledge of the vehicle he was sitting in....pretty poor.

[mad_pete]

I'd see if you can take a mate. He won't be as invested in the deal can do a calmer negotiation and drag you away if required.

[Daan]

I dont bother with car salesman anymore. I bought my last car at auction. Thats were the sales guys are going. I wrote down regs and end prices of the cars that I offered on and didn't get. Then spend the next month or so looking at autotrader to see if they appeared. 2 of them did and were up for the auction end price + £1750. Most salesman are pretty slick with whats on their forecourt, with the internet these days everybody knows what everybody asks, so it can never be miles off.

It only works if a car has been standing for a year or longer and they cant stand the sight of it anymore. But if it is a decent defender that won't happen.

[Shackleton]

The fact is a dealer always has their margin, it's why they're always more expensive. A portion of that margin is there as padding for the more canny buyer who will haggle, but of course the dealer will protect that padding best he can.

There's a systematic way to think about it:

1. Decide prior to arriving what your bottom line is. And stick to it. (assuming you can establish a fair price for the car in it's given condition, and subsequently establish first hand that it is actually in that condition)

2. Be engaging with the dealer from the get go. This works a treat, in all aspects of life. The fact is, unless you're dealing with someone who is severly unhappy, people like a fun person. Doesn't matter how stoney they might come across to begin with, if you kill them with kindness they all eventually relax.

3. Check the car, methodically. Aside from your attitude, your greatest weapon is finding holes in the car (figuratively speaking). If after your check you can turn around with a short list of a few things that aren't perfect or will 'cost money', then you have literally your bargaining chips. (assuming of course they're things you're not put off by). Operate on fact, a worn windscreen wiper or a crack in a tail light, acceptable bad points, but none the less flaws in the car. Just be careful not to lean too heavily on something trivial.

4. Act like you could take it or leave it, WITHOUT loosing that affability. You're a friendly guy, but you're not going to be had.

5. Be ballsy. He's used to hagglers, and can sniff out someone just giving it a bash from someone who knows the real deal. Tom said something important - look him in the eye. A fella saying "how about £3,500?", while standing side on to the dealer and kicking the ground is a lamb to the slaughter. Everything about you should say "here's the deal, you know it's fair".

6. The last ditch. It's no secret, you're haggling, you're in negotiation. If he's being a dick there's no harm as a last attempt to find agreement to literally say "John, its a nice car, I like it, but if I'm going to buy it I need to feel like you're meeting me on level ground, I'm in the market, is it going to be your market?" And then shut up. Just look at him. He's the boss. Put the ball firmly in his court so that at the end of the day, he's the one who's going to have to make or break the deal, not you.

Some dealers are greedy, ok most dealers are greedy, but that's how the world goes round. You just have to convince him that you're the guy he's going to cut the slack for. Best of luck!

[landroversforever]

Mods, I think this needs to be put in the tech archive!!

[Anderzander]

Yes ! Thank you everyone - you've all been hugely generous and helpful.

I put as much into practice yesterday as I could - and did manage to get some knocked off. Not a lot - but there was very little wrong with it and the price was very fair.

[Shackleton]

Good work In the face of the most indignant dealer I ever met, I once settled for a new Haynes manual in lieu of a discount. I demanded it, and I was grasping at straws. If I ever hear the (repeated) counter haggle "It's worth that all day long" ever again, I'll choke a man.

[steve_a]

Is it me or do you always walk away thinking that you should have go more off?

Very timely, I haggled and bought a new TD5 D2 on Monday.... and I said we were done with Land Rovers and moving Toyota.

[simonr]

I love haggling!

I agree with everything Shackleton said - with a couple of extras!

If you can't agree on a price, even if the dealer has not budged an inch, suggest split the difference - which immediately comes across as fair. This rarely fails!

If you still can't agree - walk away. Go back a day or two later and say you've thought about it a bit and offer him a fraction over what you offered previously.

Another one is to walk away without making an offer - just tell him there is too much wrong with it. Then phone up a couple of days later with a silly offer and haggle from there.

Most people selling Land Rovers don't know much about them - so there are some 'gems' of 'faults' which are not really faults. Handbrake not working, play in front / rear diffs, end float in front transfer box output, vague steering, vague gear-change, (if you're lucky) jumping out of gear, Clonks from suspension while driving, Hi/Low selector seized, Engaging centre diff lock and the light staying on when you take it out - "must be seized mate!".

All of these have a cash equivalent value to 'fix' which is normally worth at least a grand.

These have even worked on main dealers! In fact, dealers are often better because they know what they will cost to 'fix'. I haggled £2500 and a tow bar off the price of my RRS - which then cost me £500 to have it fixed by Challenger4x4.

Even if you fail, it's great fun trying - but you must smile while haggling and look them straight in the eye!

Si

[simonr]

Another top tip!

Go in to a shop and haggle for something you REALLY don't want - you will quickly gain experience of what does and does not work - which you can later use for something you DO want. Newbury Sortout is good for this too.

My best achievement was getting £5 off £100 worth of shopping at Tesco! It took over an hour of negotiation, eventually with the manager - but he gave in! I think he got bored - or was more worried about the queues and angry customers behind me!

Curry's and PC World are dead easy to haggle with - particularly if your mental arithmetic is good! They will usually go for a 'deal' on several items - so go in intending to buy two or more things. Haggle on the price of the most expensive one - then say "I'll give you full price on the Fridge if you throw in this Kettle as part of the deal". "Why don't we round it down to the nearest £100? - Tell you what, I need a memory card for my camera too - I'll give you £??? for the lot?".

I think my wife was a bit embarrassed when we went to buy a TV - but very pleased with the discount and has always looked quite proud when I've done it since!"

Si

Doh! I've just given away all my secrets! No more bargains when I try haggling with you at Newbury!

[CwazyWabbit]

Remind me not to try and sell anything to you Si!

[Tanuki]

Most car-sales people are likely to earn more commission from selling you financial/insurance/extended-warranty products than from selling you the car itself - that's why they push these so hard! (same goes for the TV/washing-machine/computer "extended warranties" in Currys/Dixons/PC-World).

If finance is involved one trick to look out for is if they offer you 'open-ended' finance - usually they'll ask you "So, how much a month were you thinking you could commit to?" - they'll then point you at a finance-product that generates just enough to cover the cost of the vehicle and has a high interest-rate [which means that of your monthly payment at the beginning most of the payment is going to pay-down the interest...!] Often these will have hefty early-settlement penalty-charges too (because you paying-off a loan early really makes a mess of the cash-flow).

Near-the-end-of-the-month is always a good time to look at buying a car from a dealer - if the sales guy has monthly targets to meet and he's still some way off meeting them, he'll be more-prepared to haggle just to shift the car (he'd rather sell a £5000 car by knocking it down to £4500 and getting the money transferred that day by SWIFT/IBAN electronic transfer than not sell a car at all).

I've never liked the idea of looking at a car and coming up with a list of faults then getting the seller to do the fixes - they'll always be doing the work grudgingly and trying to do it at the least cost - to them - so you're likely to get off-brand Chinese remould tyres fitted to replace the ones you spotted as being 'a bit thin', and the cheapest oil/filter they can source if you pointed out the old oil looked dirty. Much better to offer a price lower than the sticker-price, and arrange any remedials yourself.

[Shackleton]

My best achievement was getting £5 off £100 worth of shopping at Tesco! has always looked quite proud when I've done it since!"

Haha nice. I have one like that too. Was acting as 'local knowledge' for a luxury charter yacht owner who needed to come into port to provision. Being the type of marina that caters to big craft like that, the local supermarket was an upmarket affair. We had 11 trolleys stuffed to the gills in the end. The bill was €4,300 (a lot of muesli and high end booze). I talked the manager into making it an even €4k, and when it wouldn't all fit in my wagon, he pulled his S-class around and brought the rest out to the marina with us in convoy

€300 sounds impressive on a shopping bill, but it's only 7% of total, compared to your 5% Si

EDIT: ...and I should say, that was literally down to sticking the neck out and having a cheeky and genial attitude. The yacht owner loved it, he was American and said: "That's the Irish gift of the gab". Which I really don't have.