Little bit of input please

[honitonhobbit]

During a rather heated Facebook PM discussion the other night, I was asked to provide reason for my comment (to two magazine editors) that they 'need to sort out their issues and stand up to the plate'

I was asked to justify this comment; and so I have drafted up a response and a justification; with evidence

I'm interested in how, the collective 'You' would like to see the magazines change for the better - preferably in only a few sentences 

[Mo Murphy]

I don't buy magazines anymore because I can get catalogues elsewhere for free.

Mo

[Chicken Drumstick]

Are you able to give any context?

[honitonhobbit]

Magazines have gone downhill in the last 15 years

LROi Lite (also known as LRM) claims increasing reader numbers; this is not backed up by the ABC

I stated that the following factors would have a big impact on readers

a lack of club level motorsport coverage

Too much pointless trend setting

Regular coverage of illegal or badly built vehicles (but not Daan!)

A lack of 'finger on the pulse' on the industry

Lack of basic knowledge - "journalists" who simply had no idea

Reliance on the advertiser to support the mag and not the reader

Excess Photoshop - too many pictures that resemble other planets

An attitude to what made a Classic that was too attuned to the specific interests of the Editor

 

And other stuff

[FridgeFreezer]

You're not wrong.

I stopped buying mags about a decade ago. Sure I've ranted a few times on here about them, and I did write a fairly long email to the editor of TOR when I cancelled my subs (which he actually replied to, if only to say "yeah, but we can't change anything").

Seems the print media as a whole is under pressure from the interwebs, their response (mostly) seems to be a race to the bottom - hiring cheap writers with no technical knowledge to bang out poorly-written toss, to fawn to advertisers and generally play it safe, dumb, and dull.

All the articles and featured trucks follow the same formula - money thrown at bling, zero innovation. The writers don't know enough to know any better, the editors just need it printed and out the door ASAP to save money.

As an example - How many "THIS IS THE ULTIMATE OVERLAND 110" articles have they all run, featuring trucks which patently haven't turned a wheel off of UK tarmac and usually look impressive but are actually ill thought-out? Compare with, say, mmgemini's un-bling 110 which has clearly been there, done that, and evolved over numerous trips to solve all the little problems no-one finds until they hit the road and to remove any spurious stuff that doesn't need to be there. It wouldn't get featured because it's not pretty, it's not using a load of off-the-shelf parts sold by the advertisers, and it might encourage readers to (gasp) make things themselves rather than just bolt stuff on.

Their product reviews are at best on a par with tossing a coin and at worst a re-print of the press release of whoever bought the biggest advert that month.

Their technical sections follow the modern Haynes manual formula - basic info on easy stuff, leave the hard stuff to the bigger boys at the garage. Or they hire tosspots like Jerry Thurston to badly modify/restore something using bits from the sponsors, puff on about how awesome it all is whilst including basic technical errors, and leave the reader no wiser than when they picked the thing up.

From a club point of view they're a pain too - you've got to badger them to get stuff into their calendar, which they then forget about come next month. People have spent time doing write-ups of club events for a magazine (by request I might add) and then had nothing come of it - article never used, no feedback. They could at least grab a photo and paste a few words in brief if the article sucked, but just discarding it doesn't make people encouraged to send you anything else in future.

My favourite mag of recent years has been PPC as they're actually closest to doing some interesting stuff - interesting engine swaps (VAG 1.9 PD into a Westfield anyone?), DIY mods, quirky and fun stuff done at home on a budget . Where's the LRO series that breaks down how to fit a TDv6 into a RRC or D1?

[honitonhobbit]

Nice response JU - actually hits all the points square on

[FridgeFreezer]

I think the last off-road article that showed any critical thinking was in TOR, something about "Zen and the art of mud" but it clearly never caught on. I enjoyed the one about removing the wheels from challenge trucks to save weight...

[pete3000]

It's nice to look at the pictures (as there's never much technical content) i like the odd dipstick garage or mike manifold yarn. That's about it really, the technical content seemed to dry up 10 years ago for me. Most mags are guilty of this to some extent. They can be good for the odd read if you need to waste 5 mins, are new to the hobby or technically challenged with a disposable income.

They now seem to follow the same format time and time again, replace bolt on parts with newer more expensive parts, shootouts of 10-15 products, Top tips for improving an aspect of the vehicle, e.g mpg, or a rebuild which involves unbolting parts and replacing or sending the parts way for recon/rebuild. Makes you think if it's laziness, lack of content, or litigation from advice given. Or a combination of factors.

Edited November 18, 2016 by pete3000
slight typo

[reb78]

I think the others have said a lot of what i think:

1. Too much content clearly biased towards specific sponsors - whether thats Britpart or some shiny new thing from another manufacturer.

2. Linked to point 1 - complete inability or fear to actually criticise said sponsors - take Britparts legendary quality issues for example - the mags just deny this has ever been an issue.

3. Waaaay too much space taken up with adverts (i realise there needs to be some revenue from this)

4. Very very low level of technical content - i.e. as FF says, very similar to Haynes. Perhaps that's just us on here though as some wont want to take a gearbox apart or do some of the more technical jobs, but it would be nice to see decent rebuild articles on engines/boxes/diffs etc that actually tell you how to do it (need to be correctly scrutinised as there is a lot of incorrect techincal content in the mags!)

5. In the case of LRM in particular - someone who actually proof reads articles - English and grammar used to be appalling in that particular mag, so much so that I refused to buy it in the end for that reason!

6. I like articles like the ones that couple wrote who toured the globe in their Discovery (cant remember their names now but i think they called the Disco 'Rabia'?). Interesting places, lots of photos, pretty much a standard truck, so similar to FFs comments about mmgemini.

 

I'm sure there is more, but you wanted some concise sentences! 

[Dave W]

I stopped buying magazines many years ago for a number of reasons...

The editorial content is not something that an "old hand" Land Rover enthusiast would find of interest. It's aimed more at "new" owners and as a result of this most of the editorial has a very limited life. Everyone will, eventually, get through that new and shiny stage and get less and less of interest.

The magazines have rarely, if ever, found the right balance between advertising, editorial and advertorial. LRO, back in it's heyday was the biggest subscription magazine in the UK (that's across ALL magazines, not just car magazines) and probably Europe. It could rely on a solid income from it's subscriptions and, as a result, could also keep a relatively high editorial percentage. When EMAP bought up LRO, precisely because of it's huge subscriber base, they struggled to maintain what they had bought and slipped into their "cookie cutter" publishing model with career EMAP journalists taking over from experienced Land Rover enthusiasts. The subsequent launch of a number of rival magazines, none of which had a good subscriber base so were advertising heavy, diluted the market even further and all the magazines ended up in an advertising revenue war which was bad news for everyone, including the readers. As the magazines undercut each other to attract the advertisers some of those advertisers were buying up whole sections of the magazine on their own.

I think I am right in saying that all the magazines started to take the view that advertisers were more important than readers. In many case this means that bad reviews of advertiser's products would be pulled even when it was commonly known among the "educated readership" and the reporters that those advertisers were pushing shoddy merchandise and ripping off the readers who were buying the magazine. I have had a number of conversations along these lines with magazine owners, editors and reporters in the past and none of them could deny it. After all, just because a company was shipping goods that were potentially dangerous, blatant ripoffs of other people's designs and the directors were operating in, shall we say, grey areas of the law... that's no reason to stop them from buying an 8 page advertising slot or devoting half or more of the advertorials to their products.

Now that the offering of magazines has slimmed down somewhat, sadly the subscription vs advertising revenue streams has already swung so far towards advertising that the publishers no longer see a way out of it.

That brings me onto the final "elephant in the room", the internet. I had discussions with two of the largest magazines many years ago (10+ years ago) about ways that they could move their publications from print only to print and web and neither of them were able to either grasp what was coming or had any real interest in it. I wasn't selling anything, it was just an informal discussion over a beer or two based on my experience in other publishing companies that were making that same transition. Publishers are even launching new publications now without putting in place any form of internet base despite the fact that the publishers that have made the transition have shown both increased subscription revenues and advertising revenues. They have also had the opportunity to focus on their editorial content more because advertising in online publishing is additional to the editorial not an alternative and that is a key point that seems to be missed by the current Land River magazines.

So, if the remaining magazines want to rebuild their reputation and readership, the first part is simple... cut back on the reliance on advertising revenue, it is a poison chalice and will kill you off in the end if you get addicted to it. After all, falling readership numbers means falling advertising revenue and that, in turn means more pages of advertising to make up for the loss... it's a vicious cycle. There are plenty of things going on out in the Land Rover sphere, try sending reporters out to gather first hand reports and, when they do, don't carve their 6 page articles up into 2 pages so you can squeeze in more advertising pages. If it's too late to build your printed product in that way then try leveraging the good stuff into an internet based product and build on it.

 

 

[honitonhobbit]

Peter and Eileen Crichton - still going strong 200k or more now. Truly lovely people

The features editor is meant to proof read the articles - they don't employ a proof reader; although when I wrote for them, my wife (who is a proof reader) used to proof read my stuff

The first time I took a series gearbox apart (and put it back together) it was using a guide form LRO - back in about 1992

[reb78]

30 minutes ago, honitonhobbit said:

Peter and Eileen Crichton - still going strong 200k or more now. Truly lovely people

The features editor is meant to proof read the articles - they don't employ a proof reader; although when I wrote for them, my wife (who is a proof reader) used to proof read my stuff

The first time I took a series gearbox apart (and put it back together) it was using a guide form LRO - back in about 1992

Haha - I doubt (hope) I wasn't criticising your writing then! I just remember quite a large number of shoddy articles that were actually quite hard to read because of it. LRO were always better in this respect.

 

That's right. Peter and Eileen - really good articles that would give folks like me with a desire to travel a bit of a taster of what you could do (doubt i will ever do it though!  ) I remember a series in LRO from a young couple that bought a 110 and just set off to Cape Town - nothing fancy about the vehicle. I believe the chassis cracked part way through so they did a chassis change en route - just interesting reading from my perspective.

 

I guess theres a limit to the number of box rebuilds etc others want to read, but its that level of tech content that would interest a lot of the serious readers.

[Mo Murphy]

This is my magazine now, lots of different aspects to it written by people who generally know what they are doing and without any advertising (I support so I don't see any and at 2 quid a month far cheaper and better value than any magazine out there)

Mo

[honitonhobbit]

If I wrote filler, I deserved every bit of negative comment for it.

 

My favourite time was back in the days of Off Road Motorsport. I wrote a column called 'Thoughts from the toilet' reviewing magazines...

[ballcock]

Back in the 90's I used to take four magaines a month and normally read them cover to cover, and probably still have quite a few around. I presently subscribe to one, purely having taken out a five issues for a fiver deal with a free model and not getting around to cancelling it. The model took almost a year to turn up. I rarely even open the packet and when I do I don't find it very inspiring. If I want insurance companies I look on line, same with Part suppliers but as I have Bearmach 10 minutes away I deal mainly with them. The general content is a little boring and as said in earlier posts often aimed at new owners. I also used to take PPC and found that excellent in it's early days but then found a lot of their content covered illegally converted vehicles that should never have kept their registration details or have an iva to be on the road ( a bit like some Land Rovers). The old magazines were written by enthusiasts for enthusiasts which the internet has replaced with forums like this where anyone can become a journalist and write their own articles for us all to enjoy. Long live LR4X4.com.

[studmuffin]

I still, probably against better judgment, subscribe to one magazine and buy the other on a hop and a catch, mainly to read them on holiday.

After a while you realise that they feature exactly the same workshop "how to do" articles, less than 2 editions apart.

The main articles also mirror and regurgitate each other. For example - " the Best Land Rover to buy for less than £5 Grand"

They now show a photo of just about every LR vehicle, new or old, on the front page to cover all the bases.

How many times can you re-invent the wheel?

I agree- thanks for LR4x4.

Cheers

Barry 

 

[Daan]

I suppose I could throw a few things in the fire, since I actually feature this month... My intention was to write/provide a story of our Croatia adventure, in a way that shows you dont need a 50k+ truck to do it. (gigglepin and such like do get featured in LRO, and I think that puts some people off, because most will never be able to afford it). I was also hoping to support my chosen charity and the few sponsors I have. We weren't going to set the world alight, but maybe we could show 'Croatia trophy for the poor'.

This seemed do fall on deaf ears completely. I suppose their current reader group are not about being to the neck in the mud anymore, so that's probably fair. About 4 months later (when the event was done and dusted and the car completely knackered), I got a reply that they wanted to feature my car. I did agree, and I suppose they made a decent story out of it. I was hoping to show something different than what they normaly dol, but I think the mags do the same as tv, were you see what works and keep doing the same thing.

 

I think they don't expect people to subscribe for ever, as you do tend to repeat yourself after writing 10 years about the same subject. Total offroad took this theory to the next level by doing exact reprints from 5 years ago, that just taking the mickey if you ask me.

Also, Land rover is now more turning into a classic car, rather than a working vehicle, and now we have the land rover classic magazine emerging as a result. 

The scene is just changing and the mags change with it.

I understand the reluctance for advertisements, especially Britpart, but refusing several thousand pounds a month is not what happens in the real world. Get real chaps!

If only they could add more pages with interesting stuff to make up for advertisers.

 

Daan

[studmuffin]

22 hours ago, Daan said:

I suppose I could throw a few things in the fire, since I actually feature this month... My intention was to write/provide a story of our Croatia adventure, in a way that shows you dont need a 50k+ truck to do it. (gigglepin and such like do get featured in LRO, and I think that puts some people off, because most will never be able to afford it). I was also hoping to support my chosen charity and the few sponsors I have. We weren't going to set the world alight, but maybe we could show 'Croatia trophy for the poor'.

This seemed do fall on deaf ears completely. I suppose their current reader group are not about being to the neck in the mud anymore, so that's probably fair. About 4 months later (when the event was done and dusted and the car completely knackered), I got a reply that they wanted to feature my car. I did agree, and I suppose they made a decent story out of it. I was hoping to show something different than what they normaly dol, but I think the mags do the same as tv, were you see what works and keep doing the same thing.

 

I think they don't expect people to subscribe for ever, as you do tend to repeat yourself after writing 10 years about the same subject. Total offroad took this theory to the next level by doing exact reprints from 5 years ago, that just taking the mickey if you ask me.

Also, Land rover is now more turning into a classic car, rather than a working vehicle, and now we have the land rover classic magazine emerging as a result. 

The scene is just changing and the mags change with it.

I understand the reluctance for advertisements, especially Britpart, but refusing several thousand pounds a month is not what happens in the real world. Get real chaps!

If only they could add more pages with interesting stuff to make up for advertisers.

 

Daan

Daan, I just read your article and enjoyed it immensly. It was refreshing to feature a modified truck that looks more  like a rough and tough standard vehicle rather than a blingtastic Chelsea tractor.

IMHO both LR owners Int and LRM magasines suffer from the same malady as Defender chassis. There is a rust worm called the internet ,eating away and killing them. It is not a question of if - it is a question of when.

 

Barry 

[Snagger]

The problems with the magazines are manifold.

First is the blatant bias towards sponsors or traders who give them freebies, and I have heard many a complaint from clubs and traders about the LRO guys in particular behaving like a mafia and extorting them for goods or trades to avoid a bad review.  Likewise, they heap praise on terrible companies who give them deals, some of them notorious and transparent.

Next is the poor technical knowledge of the bulk of their writers.  That may be excusable to some extent with their club or expedition columnists, but is outrageous in their tech columnists.  I got into a blazing row on LRO's froum with the mag editor over criticism of one one of their tech writers giving dangerous advice, and about 75% of the comments there backed me up, but JP wouldn't back down.  That tech clown is now with a rival mag, instead of losing his career outright.  There is one LRM columnist who's utter inability to understand the most basic issue with their Series vehicle and perpetual writing about one breakdown after another, all to be sorted by mechanics, drives me to distraction.

And that is another problem.  The writers drift from one magazine to another.  The carp ones get a new job and destroy another mag after the rare occasions an editor says enough is enough.  So, they have all become a homogenous fog of indifferent, frequently incorrect, and identical articles.  I also wish their writers would try to get the slightest grasp of grammar and etiquette - I despise writers who start a sentence "Me and Bob..." instead of "Bob and I..." - you're supposed to be professional writers, so there is no excuse if you can't master basic grammar, and the lack of etiquette shows utter disrespect and self-orientation.  In all, only a tiny minority of the regular writers have any of the skills attributable to their profession.  Most of them are an annoying embarrassment to the profession and the hobby.

The last big problem I have with them, LRO and LRM much more than LRC, is that they'll do an eight page article on the most garish, bastardised monstrosity that has superficial and cosmetic mods only, and write only a page and a half to two pages on the far more interesting heavy mechanical mods or decent restorations.  They treat us as bling obsessed retards instead of mechanically savvy.

 

[GW8IZR]

Magazines do tend to target people starting off in the hobby, after all they are the easiest to get to part with their money for this weeks 'must have' accessory.

Back in the day I enjoyed IOR and some of the tales of epic dare do enthused me to have a go myself.

Well, back then I was a beginner so maybe I was easier to satisfy (see above) but I do think the writing was a bit more down to earth, truthful and honest.

I recall an article about Goretex jackets where the half wit sprayed it with WD40 to improve its performance... BUT in the next month they retracted the comment and acknowledged that it was stupid - an honest mistake.

Maybe its harder today, lets face it if I wanted to read more about Daan's truck I can read about it here in real time and actually interact with him .. that's a hard act for a magazine to beat.

I no longer buy the mags +mainly+ because I see through the blatant lies bigging up stuff like Britpart.

[miketomcat]

I haven't bought mags for years for the same reasons as most. I predominantly read here but I have to say I really miss the days of jez and Dan building great stuff and writing about it. No offence to those on here that do a great job of restoring or rebuilding but I don't find it interesting. It seems to me due to trend and legislation we are stuck with the same thing over and over.

Mike

[ejparrott]

I'll give you a nice simple easy one - buy a bloody spell checker and get a proof reader!!!!

[Daan]

4 hours ago, miketomcat said:

I haven't bought mags for years for the same reasons as most. I predominantly read here but I have to say I really miss the days of jez and Dan building great stuff and writing about it. No offence to those on here that do a great job of restoring or rebuilding but I don't find it interesting. It seems to me due to trend and legislation we are stuck with the same thing over and over.

Mike

Mike, you are building great stuff.

 

Daan

[Davo]

I gave up on those magazines during the late '90s or so when they started getting all "gnarly" and "radical". LRO from before then was so good that I still have two boxes of magazines and use them for reference. I can understand why they sold it to the ad-chasers at EMAP, but it went downhill quickly afterwards. I seem to remember the very good military nut Bob Morrison being mightily annoyed when he was suddenly told he wasn't needed anymore, one of many of the new ownership stuff-ups. 

It's no different than JLR, chasing the easy money and lowering their standards to do so. The magazines have turned into actual parodies of themselves. I don't know what's wrong with our society, but during the '90s standards of all kinds were tossed out the window, with a seemingly endless race to the bottom. 

And Peter and Eileen Crichton! I'd forgotten about them! I think I might have one the first articles about them. They are part of the huge variety of the Land Rover world which is exactly what these magazines should be covering. I have a long-term plan to put everything I know onto my own website - because no magazine would be interested in that sort of thing. 

[BogMonster]

Used to read 2 or 3 religiously, haven't read anything for maybe three or four years now for all the reasons already stated. Shallow tech articles, stuffed with orange extreme tat advertising, virtually nothing of interest.