Thoughts and musings on the new defender

[BogMonster]

23 hours ago, lo-fi said:

Don't worry Deep, I bet they'll supply it with one of those cassettes with the cable dangling out so you can connect your Discman

Bluetooth "just works". For anyone that can afford one of these things, it'll be a must have. I get in my car, the phone connects, it plays Spotify or iplayer where I left off. I touch literally nothing. My girlfriend, on the other hand, has an older fiat. It has a USB connection that patchily supports nothing but the phones of the day. She bought a Bluetooth adaptor, which lives in said USB port. Despite being Bluetooth (a wireless protocol, let's not forget), you have to plug the phone in to charge through the adaptor before it'll work. Its the most bonkers, irritating thing. Cables? Ain't nobody got time fo dat. Modern iPhones don't even have a 3.5mm jack any more either. Bluetooth A2DP is a single standard more broadly supported than even a cable now, so I'd expect both the new thing and Grenadier (however basic) to come with support, and I'd be willing to bet its more widely used than any cabled connection.

I like the idea of the "dumb" head unit though, pretty much just being an amp with volume control. That's pretty much all I ever want out of a car stereo! 

No it doesn't. Bluetooth is carp. I've never had anything that 'just works'. And I don't keep music on my phone, I want to listen to local radio a lot of the time not my own collection. Other people can bugger around with wireless technology if they want, I just want a wireless in the vehicle!

[Snagger]

I’m with you on that - my Volvo has Bluetooth, and it’s a settings and menus nightmare.  I just don’t use it.  I far prefer listening to radio in the car than tape/cd/mp3 anyway, but if I was to want my phone connected, I’d rather have a lead that will also charge the phone while it’s doing whatever I need it to.

[Gazzar]

Bluetooth is a pain. False promise of technology. When it does work it's good, but usually it's a real pain.

I liked my old Nokia, it had a FM transmitter, tune in the car radio and off you go.

No longer available.

[Anderzander]

Just to get back to how disappointing the new Range Rover Defender is ....

It would have been fab if they’d come up with something more like this : 

 

[Mo Murphy]

I like it ! 😊

Mo

[Escape]

On 9/19/2019 at 5:56 PM, Bowie69 said:

~300bhp, turbo petrol or diesel 6 cylinder BMW engines? What's not to like.....

 

The fact that they're BMW? I have nothing against Bimmer road cars, but try to stay far away from any Land Rover with a BMW engine, especially the P38 and L322.

[Anderzander]

Don’t worry - it’s not a Land Rover.

[Escape]

I got to see the new Defender up close today and take a seat behind the wheel, all stationary of course.

It pretty much confirmed my expectations. It's overall quite a nice car, I like the design cues from the original like the rear door. The rear LED lights are not to my liking and look even stranger in real life. The front does look OK, modern but with more or less traditional layout.

The dash is better than in the Tdci, but I hate the touchscreen (I always hate the things) and can't believe that will be of much use offroad or with dirty hands. Then again, everybody seems to want the bloody things, so it's only logical they've put one in instead of nice sturdy buttons and a DIN radio. I was surprised there's no separate button for the terrain response, you have to use the temperature dial after chosing the right setting on, you've guessed it, the touchscreen... The electronic diffs can't be selected manually, you just have to hope the terrain response makes the appropriate choice. The brochure mentions the settings can be customised, maybe that will prove usefull.

I wasn't convinced by the driving position, a bit lower and more laid back than expected. Which strangely made the interior feel less spacious than in the TD5 we drove there. You do get ample room for your arm and shoulder and even a place to rest your elbow without opening the window. Gearstick seems well placed despite looking like a it was taken from a van, but as it's an automatic it's rather pointless.

Exterior looked clean and well finished, the checker plate actually is a plate, not a sticker. Front bumper is too low, but one of the packs includes a cut-off version. The towing eyes are a nice feature, a lot easier to reach than the old ones hidden under the bumper or rear crossmember.  I'm baffled those can pass pedestrian safety regulations!

I have no doubt it will be a very capable vehicle. It was presented on GoodYear Wrangler muds on 20", I'd prefer smaller rims but they did look the part and will get the job done. A lot of nice and well designed details in the interior, like grab handles and luggage hooks. I'm sure there will be a lot of potential buyers. I certainly wont be one of them, too modern and too detached. Again, I'm well aware I'm far from the audience LR has aimed the Defender at. Still feel a bit sad it's not the icon it could have been, and at the same time happy to have owned a Defender TD5 while it was still a driver's car instead of a lifestyle statement. On the new one you can get an 'urban pack', to help you tackle the school run. I guess that says it all, no doubt it will be a very popular option...

Filip 

PS: I must stress I don't want to come over as to negative. I really do think Land Rover did a good job, it's just not for me. And time will tell if they can convice a lot of new customers, or just compromise Disco/Range sales.

[Chicken Drumstick]

Not directly “Defender” related.

But I went and drove a Wrangler JL 3 door today. It was an Overland spec with the 2.2 diesel and 8 speed auto.

I do still think they are over priced for the UK market (about £50k), but it was very nice. If you combined the best bits of a 65 plate Tdci Defender with. Disco 4 I think you’d end up with something like this.

The 2.2 was very peppy and smooth, I was also impressed with how refined and quiet the cabin was. There is a bit of wind noise from the top corner of the screen, but I think you only hear because the rest is so quiet. I also thought it rode very well. It felt taught and controlled, no excessive leaning, but was very compliant and comfortable.

Interior quality was good and everything felt solid and nice to use. It felt small, but chunky to drive. A bit like a fat Defender, you know one on big wheels. 

Not really a complaint, but it is quite a step up in and out of, there is lip on the body tub, not as easy as a Defender 90 to get in or out of. But that was my only complaint about the car.

Jeep UK on the other hand, well I’m not sure what to say really. On the Jeep UK website you can “build/configure” your Jeep. But it turns out that they don’t actually have stock to match what you can configure. And they are unable to factory order anything. Basically they are advertising vehicles that they can’t provide!

 

Anyhow, sadly unless I win some money, the Jeep is too pricey for me. I do have a Jimmy on order, but still looking at nearly 18 months wait....

 

As for the new Defender. If I was wanting a Discovery, it looks to be brilliant. But for me it just isn’t a “Defender” and does not compete in the same arena as the Jimmy and Wrangler. The only other vehicle in the UK market I’d consider is the Ranger Raptor, but that too seems a lot of money compared to the lesser models.

[deep]

25 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

 

 

As for the new Defender. If I was wanting a Discovery, it looks to be brilliant. But for me it just isn’t a “Defender” and does not compete in the same arena as the Jimmy and Wrangler. The only other vehicle in the UK market I’d consider is the Ranger Raptor, but that too seems a lot of money compared to the lesser models.

I guess the new Defender 90 could be more or less seen as competing with the Jimny and maybe the short Wrangler (more useful and capable than either but more expensive than the Suzuki) but the Ranger is a completely different body style.  Personally, I'd hate to be spending that sort of money without a clear idea of what I actually needed/wanted!

Thanks for the report, Escape.  Just curious now - if you order the 2nd level of terrain response, which allegedly allows the driver to configure the vehicle, wouldn't that allow control over the diffs as well?

Funny thing, now that we know the little details about the new Defender (particularly how much the computer programmers want to over-rule the driver!), I have developed a new passion for my 32 year old 110, so much so that I'm trying to persuade my boss to take away my company car.  That way, the 110 (and my SLK) can be my daily drivers!  Of course, if he was to replace the ghastly Mitsubishi with a new Defender, I believe I could live with it...

[Chicken Drumstick]

7 minutes ago, deep said:

I guess the new Defender 90 could be more or less seen as competing with the Jimny and maybe the short Wrangler (more useful and capable than either but more expensive than the Suzuki) but the Ranger is a completely different body style.  Personally, I'd hate to be spending that sort of money without a clear idea of what I actually needed/wanted!

 

Body style doesn’t really matter that much. Only really need 2 seats. I do like SWB vehicles as a rule. But a pickup would be useful.

Primarily I want something off road capable and rugged. I also want it to feel ‘special’ to drive. The Jimny and Wrangler tick this box easily. I suspect the new Defender probably won’t. The last thing I want is for a 4x4 to feel car like to drive. The Disco 3/4 and RRS are great vehicles, but feel very ‘ordinary’ to drive and lack that sensation of driving a 4x4. Fine if I’m wanting a Discovery type of vehicle, but less so if you wanting something more specialised.

I guess the best way to describe it is, I see the traditional Defender, Wrangler and Jimny as the off road equivalent to a Caterham Seven or Lotus Elise. Something like a Disco 4 or the new Defender would be more akin to a Focus R.S.  All great cars, but very different focus from those specialising in their discipline. And the other being something adapted to be capable.

From all accounts the Ranger Raptor is a complete hoot to drive and seems to pretty handy off road, despite its long wheel base.

[Cynic-al]

We have a new shape Jimmy at work. I'm glad you only want 2 seats, noone has even tried to get in the back, intact the rear seats have been folded down since we got it. Apparently the boot space with the seats folded is less than a golf with its rear seats up Its great fun to drive and comfortable at 50, You feel like your pushing it above that but it will do it. More people comment on it than any of the more expensive cars on the fleet. They're worth every penny.

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

I’ve been in the back of the Jimny.  No harder to get in than something like a Pug 106 or Fiesta 3 door. And easier than the Wrangler 3 door or a 90 with forward facing rear seats.

Boot is obviously small on the Jimny with the seats up, it is only a small vehicle. With the seats down it has a usable space though.

[Escape]

I too am curious about the 2nd level of terrain response and just what it will allow the driver to do. The guy at the presentation seemed knowledgeable enough. But he also realized he wasn't going to sell me one, so concentrated his attention on a yuppie couple that was in the car with me. They seemed far more interested in all the gizmos on the touchscreen I was moaning about... He did claim the screen would be easily operated even with wet/dirty/gloved hands...

I'm sure the Defender will feel special to drive. You have the command driving position I love about (most) Land Rovers. And it didn't feel so heavy like a RRS (mind you, I can only comment on the perception inside a stationary vehicle, we were told we'd have to wait until May before we could drive one. But we could already order one and sign a cheque...). Really a different league to the Jimny, that felt like a small and cheap toy when I tried one earlier this year. It'll probably be fun in it's own way, but really can't be compared to a Defender. The new one is clearly designed for long, comfortable drives at good speed, much like the first Range Rover was a huge step up from the Series. 

Filip

[Cynic-al]

Problem with the seats down is they're not flat. They couldve been a bit more creative and done them so they ended up completely flat with the boot floor. Work have lobbed a large cardboard box in the back to make it like a van with a bulkhead. 

[Chicken Drumstick]

37 minutes ago, Escape said:

Really a different league to the Jimny, that can't be compared to a Defender.

That’s exactly my point. 

I’m not knocking the new Defender as a vehicle. It looks great overall. And I can we’ll see me owing one as a used example in years to come. 

But it would be replacing my Range Rover or a Discovery. It would not be replacing a Series or proper Defender. 

This new one is only a Defender in name. A marketing ploy. One that will no doubt be very successful. By milking the name for all its worth. But is still arguably boardering on being insulting by sticking that name on it. 

And while on the subject. While I actually like how it looks (I also liked the DC100 concept). I am amazed it doesn’t look more “Defender” is they are wanting to use the name. In shape and design language it seems to use none of he LR heritage and looks very corporate with a profile and language matching the Disco5, Velar and Range Rover Sport. For me a Defender should be instantly recognisable as one. And this just isn’t. 

Imagine being on a dual carriage way and you see a car in the distance coming towards you. At something like 500+ yards a strongly styled car will be easy to ID. Eg a Wrangler. You may not be able to confirm exactly which variant until close. But they all have a distinctive styling. Same with the out going Defender. When you see one coming towards you, it is impossible to mistake it for anything else. Mustangs and Elise’s have a similar presence. However I think this new Defender looks too generic, especially head on. It’ll be hard to tell it from the rest of the lineup or even a Nissan Patrol if you catch the angle right/wrong. 

What has happened to the wing tops. Flat bonnet. Separate bumper. Squared off rear. Heater vent (they have the Range Rover vent, which I’m lead to believe is meant to look like a classic RR 3 door handle. If so wtf is it doing on a Defender model????). The flat sides with wheel spats. 

 

Maybe they should have called this one “Defender Sport” if they really had to use the name. 

[Ed Poore]

With regards to the touchscreen I think the main reason everyone has jumped on the bandwagon is it's flexible and allows cheap and easy (for the manufacturer) updates to refresh a vehicle's interior. Historically I seem to remember a lot more "refreshes" of a vehicle's design which were largely focused around the dashboard with some exterior changes as well so you could identify the differences. Nowaways I feel much less changes but the infotainment systems get updated to add more features which kind of has the same effect.

I did like my "old" TDV8 (christ that would be12 years old now) which had the touch screen but for switching between screens (maps, phone, music, etc) there were hard buttons surrounding it. That meant I didn't often use the touch screen aspects of it while driving and I could just by feel switch the display if I wanted to check something. Perhaps what they should do is use some of these little buttons with OLEDs in them so that you can have reconfigurable tactile buttons on the dashboard.

[reb78]

I dont know why manufacturers dont just put a holder in there for a touch screen and allow users to run whatever tablet they like. If they came up with a universal mount system and discrete charger connection and then an app for the vehicle (would only really need an android and ios version) they wouldnt have to worry about their instantly out of date tech and people could use the interface of choice....

[Ed Poore]

That's basically what Android Auto is doing - the problem is for a manufacturer to offer an in-vehicle mount for a tablet that's accessible to the driver is opening up a world of pain safety wise.

[reb78]

11 minutes ago, Ed Poore said:

That's basically what Android Auto is doing - the problem is for a manufacturer to offer an in-vehicle mount for a tablet that's accessible to the driver is opening up a world of pain safety wise.

Take your L322 though Ed, or the D3/D4, without the factory screen in place, there is an easy place to create something that would do the job in a place where I cant imagine passeenger safety would be affected if it was left empty. Cant be that hard.

[Ed Poore]

27 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Take your L322 though Ed, or the D3/D4, without the factory screen in place, there is an easy place to create something that would do the job in a place where I cant imagine passeenger safety would be affected if it was left empty. Cant be that hard.

It's not the physical installation that's the problem - that could be easily standardised. Anything that's accessible by the driver has to conform with all sorts of legislation, the head units that are installed by manufacturers undergo years and years of testing which is why they're typically so far behind the curve of modern tablets.

Things are different for the actual manufacturers compared to after market modifications. Land Rover will have to seek type approval and record all the testing that's been undertaken in order to take something to market, if you modify something else after the event then it's not their problem.

Look at the hoops that JLR jumped through to create the V8 Works or whatever it was called - they had to get a subsidiary company to do all the work for them because if it was actually JLR that had built them then either they'd be non-road legal or they'd have to be type-approved, something they couldn't do for such a small number.

[reb78]

Fair enough. That does explain why most systems are outdated before they hit the market. That's why the Grenadier idea appeals - just an amp. Connect what you want how you want....

[Anderzander]

 

[deep]

6 hours ago, Anderzander said:

 

Apart from getting one or two facts wrong, I think he nailed it.  His conclusion nails why there is so much division over this thing, especially the comparison with the iMac Pro!  

My summary: Land Rover made a much better car but lots of people actually wanted a better truck...

[reb78]

1 hour ago, deep said:

 

My summary: Land Rover made a much better car but lots of people actually wanted a better truck...

I agree completely. If they had just called it something else it would have been received a lot better!!